Toronto language diversity offers glimpse of Canada's future Read

[nicky10013]

I think an important distinction needs to be made between personal bilingualism and organizational bilingualism.

Any organization intent on functioning efficiently needs a common language. On that front, though I'd say Bill 101 goes way too far, the idea of making French Quebec's sole official language of government administration I think was a bright idea, an the rest of Canada could learn from that. From that standpoint, it would only make sense for the city of Toronto to adopt English as its official language of government administration.

That being said, obviously while we want to ensure all Torontonians know the local official language, clearly personal bilingualism in many different languages can be beneficial for the city as then international companies and the local international tourism industry can access the skilled workers needed for a wide range of jobs.

Without that distinction, the thread can't even start.

Toronto's administrative language is English. All business in council and at city hall is done in English. They have a multi-lingual TTC help line set up as a service but that's it.

[Machjo]

Toronto's administrative language is English. All business in council and at city hall is done in English. They have a multi-lingual TTC help line set up as a service but that's it.

I don't know if I agree to tax dollars being spent on a multi-lingual TTC help line (everyone ought to know the local language), but if the administrative language of the local government is English, and we're talking mainly about private-sector bilingualism allowing Torontonians to exploit world markets that would not otherwise be accessible to them, then what's the issue?

[Shwa]

I don't know if I agree to tax dollars being spent on a multi-lingual TTC help line (everyone ought to know the local language), but if the administrative language of the local government is English, and we're talking mainly about private-sector bilingualism allowing Torontonians to exploit world markets that would not otherwise be accessible to them, then what's the issue?

Well then what's the issue with a multi-lingual TTC helpline?

[Argus]

Multi lingual?

Who cares

As long as they can communicate in one of the official languages - and depending upon where they live it is the one that works best - it is a tempest in a tea pot.

A common language unites a people. Different languages divide people. You have to look no farther than the Ontario Quebec border for confirmation of that.

[Argus]

Funny, the "mini ghettos" that create the most crime, in Toronto at least, are the immigrants from Jamaica. I don't know if you knew this, but they actually speak English.

Of a sort.

[nicky10013]

Of a sort.

Make all the jokes you want, but the argument is they can't assimilate into society. Therefore, they cause more problems. This basic fact refutes that line of thinking.

[Argus]

Make all the jokes you want, but the argument is they can't assimilate into society. Therefore, they cause more problems. This basic fact refutes that line of thinking.

No it doesn't actually. I think you need to redefine the basic argument, which is that lack of language/communication skills delay assimilation into general society. They are not the sole cause or reason, however, for speedy or delayed integration.

I would like to make this observation about Jamaican accents even while stating that their language skills are a lesser reason for delayed integration. A lot of people feel about certain kinds of accents the way people once felt about Irish accents, or that of cockneys or other lower class UK people - which is that upon hearing it, the mind makes an almost subconscious shift in its assessment of the speaker, lowering their likely value, intelligence and potential.

Jamaicans are not a people noted for anything of value beyond good ganga and partying. So while they might speak often heavily accented English, I'm not sure how much aid that is in integration.

[Machjo]

Well then what's the issue with a multi-lingual TTC helpline?

None if it's not taxpayer-funded.

[Machjo]

Of a sort.

Oh pity. It's too bad those savages never learnt the Queen's English. Oh well... oh dear, it's tea time, I'd better get a move on, and after that off to the cricket matches. If only we'd colonized them just a little longer they'd have learnt well, just like how Robinson Crusoe had taught Man Friday well.

Oh well, ta for now.

[Machjo]

No it doesn't actually. I think you need to redefine the basic argument, which is that lack of language/communication skills delay assimilation into general society. They are not the sole cause or reason, however, for speedy or delayed integration.

I would like to make this observation about Jamaican accents even while stating that their language skills are a lesser reason for delayed integration. A lot of people feel about certain kinds of accents the way people once felt about Irish accents, or that of cockneys or other lower class UK people - which is that upon hearing it, the mind makes an almost subconscious shift in its assessment of the speaker, lowering their likely value, intelligence and potential.

Jamaicans are not a people noted for anything of value beyond good ganga and partying. So while they might speak often heavily accented English, I'm not sure how much aid that is in integration.

I see. Thanks for a glimpse into how your mind works.

[Jack Weber]

I see. Thanks for a glimpse into how your mind works.

You've been intellectualized by the Big Giant Head...

I'll bet you felt smarter just by reading Argus The Magnificient's missive???

[Wild Bill]

I see. Thanks for a glimpse into how your mind works.

Argus may be right about the type of citizen we see with Jamaican immigrants but not for reasons of accent. Immigration Canada just seems to let in all the 'lowlifes' from the island with little or no screening! This has been explained to me by several Jamaican-born Canadian friends, who left the island to get 'away from that crowd', among other reasons.

As for accent, I think he is making a classic assumption that not being perfectly articulate in one's own language somehow makes a person less intelligent. This notion is not only illogical but frankly 'nuts', unworthy of Argus' usual points.

One of my first jobs as a young man was a cable tv man, where I was constantly meeting new people as I visited their house. I still remember installing the cable for an immigrant family who spoke almost no English. They were getting by with waves and gestures to show me where they wanted the cable to be placed for their tv. I had no idea of where they were from but just for hellry I gave the father a try with my high school french.

His face lit up and he began to talk to me in perfect parisian french! Suddenly I was the one 'just off the boat". He was an engineer and he and his family had lived in many different countries around the globe. It seemed they had born a child in each of these countries. One boy was born in Spain and the entire family spoke perfect Spanish. A girl was born in Brazil and they all spoke Portugese. They also all spoke German and a few other languages.

They were both kind and courteous with me and my 'mal francais'. They fed me a sandwich made with delicious home-baked Portugese bread and gave me some VERY good homemade wine!

For a young hippy lad who had never been very far from his own pond it was a vivid lesson that someone's accent or speech pattern was a total non sequitur to assume anything about his character or basic brainpower.

What often goes along with Argus' false assumption is the old idea (brilliantly parodied many times by Monty Python) that if on holidays among 'foreigners' who don't speak English you just need to speak both slowly and very loud!

Edited August 1, 2010 by Wild Bill

[Yesterday]

Argus may be right about the type of citizen we see with Jamaican immigrants but not for reasons of accent. Immigration Canada just seems to let in all the 'lowlifes' from the island with little or no screening! This has been explained to me by several Jamaican-born Canadian friends, who left the island to get 'away from that crowd', among other reasons.

As for accent, I think he is making a classic assumption that not being perfectly articulate in one's own language somehow makes a person less intelligent. This notion is not only illogical but frankly 'nuts', unworthy of Argus' usual points.

One of my first jobs as a young man was a cable tv man, where I was constantly meeting new people as I visited their house. I still remember installing the cable for an immigrant family who spoke almost no English. They were getting by with waves and gestures to show me where they wanted the cable to be placed for their tv. I had no idea of where they were from but just for hellry I gave the father a try with my high school french.

His face lit up and he began to talk to me in perfect parisian french! Suddenly I was the one 'just off the boat". He was an engineer and he and his family had lived in many different countries around the globe. It seemed they had born a child in each of these countries. One boy was born in Spain and the entire family spoke perfect Spanish. A girl was born in Brazil and they all spoke Portugese. They also all spoke German and a few other languages.

They were both kind and courteous with me and my 'mal francais'. They fed me a sandwich made with delicious home-baked Portugese bread and gave me some VERY good homemade wine!

For a young hippy lad who had never been very far from his own pond it was a vivid lesson that someone's accent or speech pattern was a total non sequitur to assume anything about his character or basic brainpower.

What often goes along with Argus' false assumption is the old idea (brilliantly parodied many times by Monty Python) that if on holidays among 'foreigners' who don't speak English you just need to speak both slowly and very loud!

Very good point and well written. I had a similar experience as a quite young girl. My family moved from Nova Scotia to Fort McMurray in Alberta when I was 10. The difference in my speech to that of the other children in school included speed, how fast I spoke and how words like corner and quarter had almost a southern drawl to them. I still remember how big of a deal it was for whatever reason....even a teacher singled me out for this and stated desires to put me in speech classes. While all of this was going on they realized that I was a year ahead of the curriculum even though I sounded like a bumpkin and got the resulting bump ahead. This did nothing for me in the friend making department.

Having this experience did teach me how important it is to get passed most first impressions, both the ones you give and the ones you get.

[Shwa]

None if it's not taxpayer-funded.

Why not? Part of the TTC funding comes by way of government funding and if a multilingual TTC helpline allowed better service and encouraged more users, wouldn't this be a good investment?

[Shwa]

I see. Thanks for a glimpse into how your mind works.

Also, here as well:

A lot of people feel about certain kinds of accents the way people once felt about Irish accents, or that of cockneys or other lower class UK people - which is that upon hearing it, the mind makes an almost subconscious shift in its assessment of the speaker, lowering their likely value, intelligence and potential.

The only way this "subconscious shift" could work is if there is a preconceived opinion on either the people behind the accent or people with accents in general. In other words, prejudice. I sincerely hope that Argus recognizes this phenomenon for what it is as opposed to believing it is some magical truth-saying function of the superior mind.

[Machjo]

I'll bet you felt smarter just by reading Argus The Magnificient's missive???

Kind of hard not to. You'd have to be pretty dumb not to feel smarter after reading that trash.

[Wild Bill]

Very good point and well written. I had a similar experience as a quite young girl. My family moved from Nova Scotia to Fort McMurray in Alberta when I was 10. The difference in my speech to that of the other children in school included speed, how fast I spoke and how words like corner and quarter had almost a southern drawl to them. I still remember how big of a deal it was for whatever reason....even a teacher singled me out for this and stated desires to put me in speech classes. While all of this was going on they realized that I was a year ahead of the curriculum even though I sounded like a bumpkin and got the resulting bump ahead. This did nothing for me in the friend making department.

Having this experience did teach me how important it is to get passed most first impressions, both the ones you give and the ones you get.

I too come from a family of Bluenosers, my mother's side being from Pictou and Antigonish. We came and settled down in Ontario when I was about 8 years old.

To this day, if I get too drunk or excited I lose my Ontarioan accent!

[Remiel]

The fact is that language is not even the only way in which this phenomenon manifests: Good handwriting has been for a long time thought o be a sign of intelligence; it is not. And I have seen references to " the mouth-breather " crowd that stank of the same presumptuos bull...

[Argus]

The only way this "subconscious shift" could work is if there is a preconceived opinion on either the people behind the accent or people with accents in general.

And you don't think that preconceived opinions on Jamaicans are fairly widespread in this country?

[Argus]

I see. Thanks for a glimpse into how your mind works.

You're not smart enough to figure out how my mind works. You're not even smart enough to separate a statement about how society and large numbers of people in it tend to function from a statement regarding personal prejudice or beliefs.

[Argus]

The fact is that language is not even the only way in which this phenomenon manifests: Good handwriting has been for a long time thought o be a sign of intelligence; it is not. And I have seen references to " the mouth-breather " crowd that stank of the same presumptuos bull...

But it isn't really presumptuous. If a person is incapable of expressing themselves coherently in writing it's perfectly reasonable to judge them on that.

Historically, the class system in the U.K. made it perfectly obvious within seconds of a man opening his mouth to discern his upbringing. Even today you can easily tell the difference between a more educated Englishman and his less educated "lower class" brethren from simply listening to them talk for a minute. They not only have different vocabularies but different diction and accents. That sort of thing doesn't exist to anything like that scale in Canada. Even so, people who speak with certain types of accents are quite often associated with less education and thus intelligence.

[Argus]

Kind of hard not to. You'd have to be pretty dumb not to feel smarter after reading that trash.

I have a feeling that every comic book you read without assistance (carefully following the words with your fingers and sounding out the big ones orally) makes you feel smarter.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Argus

[Remiel]

But it isn't really presumptuous. If a person is incapable of expressing themselves coherently in writing it's perfectly reasonable to judge them on that.

Let me give you an example of what I mean: Jeremy Bentham supposedly had terrible handwriting. Obviously, this had nothing to do with him being able o " express himself coherently " in writing, because if it had, none of us would have ever heard of him. In other words, it seems you are confusing the content and the medium.

[Machjo]

I have a feeling that every comic book you read without assistance (carefully following the words with your fingers and sounding out the big ones orally) makes you feel smarter.

Certainement pas en anglais, en français et en espéranto. Je dois admettre par contre qu'autant que je puisse parler the mandarin, je ne peux pas encore le lire sauf pour quelques idéogrammes. Et toi?

[bloodyminded]

Heh, why so quick to give the benefit of the doubt to black racists while so quick to assume the worst about white ones? Both are equally despicable, as that forum well demonstrates, in my opinion.

Because I used to visit the site from time to time, and there were no "black racists" (who, for all I know, are white people pretending to be black racists, and simply trying to play the supremacists at their own game) in evidence.

Now, it would appear there are two apparent black racists...as compared to a whole rogues' gallery of white supremacists.

If anyone thinks there is a racist black movement comparable in size to the white supremacist movement....well, I've got a magnificent, perfectly-running car to sell them for a mere $30 000.