The Liberal Disease

[nicky10013]

This is contrary to your premise of self made advancement. Every man/woman does not need a corporate framework to thrive.

No, you're right they don't. However, to say that if you get a job in a company you really like and advance your way to the top isn't self made advancement, well, that just doesn't make sense.

No....this is just slavery to a different social framework. Clearly there were/are many successes by individuals without any of these things in place. "All things to all people" is an entirely different objective that can actually remove opportunity and incentive.

Giving people a better opportunity to succeed is slavery?

[bush_cheney2004]

No, you're right they don't. However, to say that if you get a job in a company you really like and advance your way to the top isn't self made advancement, well, that just doesn't make sense.

Sorry, but your context is just too narrow....and hardly focuses on what is possible by the individual regardless of the setting. Your premise is very limited if confined to companies or corporations.

Giving people a better opportunity to succeed is slavery?

Yes...if that opportunity is contrived or limited by an alterior motive or objective, particularly when imposed by government.

[nicky10013]

Sorry, but your context is just too narrow....and hardly focuses on what is possible by the individual regardless of the setting. Your premise is very limited if confined to companies or corporations.

It certainly isn't confined to the corporate sphere. I just used it as an example of what people can do as soon as they get their foot in the door. All the things I mentioned helps people do that. It also will create more innovation and small business start ups. Education is the silver bullet for pretty much every problem both social and economic.

Yes...if that opportunity is contrived or limited by an alterior motive or objective, particularly when imposed by government.

And if the ulterior motive is to decrease crime, poverty and strengthen the economy?

[bush_cheney2004]

It certainly isn't confined to the corporate sphere. I just used it as an example of what people can do as soon as they get their foot in the door. All the things I mentioned helps people do that. It also will create more innovation and small business start ups.

But it can also prevent such innovation and private investment with burdensome regulation, taxes, insurance, etc.

And if the ulterior motive is to decrease crime, poverty and strengthen the economy?

Then there will be additional negative effects....in the absence of winners and losers we would instead have a lower standard of mediocrity.

[lictor616]

But the advancement of corporate interests aren't necessarily bad for the common man. Coporate citizens employ the majority of citizens. Allowing them ample opportunity to hire more people can't possibly be a bad thing. Once in the company a person can do anything. It's the barriers to getting hired which need to be removed. Healthcare, affordable and equitable education at all levels, youth sports programs, communications infrastructure, and yes, even equitable hiring practices (to combat seen and unseen racial bias which every study ever conducted confirms exist) are all things needed to give all people the same opportunity to excel. What they do with that opportunity is up to them.

equitable education? what does that even mean...

combat UNSEEN prejudice... meaning prejudice that has no evidence of existing...

typical left wing victim mentality though.... people NEED help... people need supervision... a crutch,

ànd of course "equitable hiring practices" presumably implies the use of racial quotas through affirmative action right? ie denying better qualified whites to artificially remove "barriers" towards minority employment... how equitable!

why even waste your time stating what we know is the political orthodoxy in this country.,.. ive heard countless shyster politicians say the same garbage as you. How about a little originality?

[nicky10013]

equitable education? what does that even mean...

Clearly you're a victim of the problem. It means kids from inner city schools fare FAR worse in terms of education than kids in the suburbs due to a variety of reasons. They deserve the same level of education as anyone else. That's where it starts.

combat UNSEEN prejudice... meaning prejudice that has no evidence of existing...

No, not quite. Everyone has prejudice and bias. It's the way we are. Black people are less likely to be hired than white. Just a plain fact.

typical left wing victim mentality though.... people NEED help... people need supervision... a crutch,

No, everyone deserves the same start, the same base from which to climb the proverbial mountain. Why should some kids have an exponentially harder time just because they were born in the same area? This isn't victim mentality. If we're going to be quite honest here, the only mentality is a hidden one. It's a mentality of "I don't want to pay" even if paying means a stronger community, a stronger economy and a safer society. Coming from the right wing which constantly plays up christian and family values, moral outrage over trying to help kids make it in life is hilarious. It's hypocritical.

ànd of course "equitable hiring practices" presumably implies the use of racial quotas through affirmative action right? ie denying better qualified whites to artificially remove "barriers" towards minority employment... how equitable!

People who benefit from affirmative action put far more back into their communities which aren't usually that good. If you want to look to a true standard of a well run state, look to Scandanavia. Rock bottom crime, high education rates, strong economic growth. You can throw every cliche you want at the wall against it, but nothing will make that not true.

why even waste your time stating what we know is the political orthodoxy in this country.,.. ive heard countless shyster politicians say the same garbage as you. How about a little originality?

Originality? So we should ditch programs that actually work becuase you want something fresh? What a fucking joke.

Edited July 12, 2010 by nicky10013

[nicky10013]

But it can also prevent such innovation and private investment with burdensome regulation, taxes, insurance, etc.

In Canada we have a much higher rate of taxation and regulation. Look where the US is compared to Canada in terms of economic health. Not really a good comparison.

Then there will be additional negative effects....in the absence of winners and losers we would instead have a lower standard of mediocrity.

Who said there wouldn't be winners and losers? I'm talking about giving kids the same tools to compete. Shouldn't that be a good thing?

[Jack Weber]

Clearly you're a victim of the problem. It means kids from inner city schools fare FAR worse in terms of education than kids in the suburbs due to a variety of reasons. They deserve the same level of education as anyone else. That's where it starts.

No, not quite. Everyone has prejudice and bias. It's the way we are. Black people are less likely to be hired than white. Just a plain fact.

No, everyone deserves the same start, the same base from which to climb the proverbial mountain. Why should some kids have an exponentially harder time just because they were born in the same area? This isn't victim mentality. If we're going to be quite honest here, the only mentality is a hidden one. It's a mentality of "I don't want to pay" even if paying means a stronger community, a stronger economy and a safer society. Coming from the right wing which constantly plays up christian and family values, moral outrage over trying to help kids make it in life is hilarious. It's hypocritical.

People who benefit from affirmative action put far more back into their communities which aren't usually that good. If you want to look to a true standard of a well run state, look to Scandanavia. Rock bottom crime, high education rates, strong economic growth. You can throw every cliche you want at the wall against it, but nothing will make that not true.

Originality? So we should ditch programs that actually work becuase you want something fresh? What a fucking joke.

Originality? So we should ditch policy that works because you of all people are in the mood

I suppose Dr.Kookenstein would think that Fascistic ethnic bullying would be "original"?

Or perhaps a return to Jim Crowism??

Oh... forgot...Whiffy is still thinking that some sort of repatriation to Africa like his mythical Langer/Lincoln plan is plausible...

Edited July 12, 2010 by Jack Weber

[bush_cheney2004]

Clearly you're a victim of the problem. It means kids from inner city schools fare FAR worse in terms of education than kids in the suburbs due to a variety of reasons. They deserve the same level of education as anyone else. That's where it starts.

So they all deserve Harvard, like Michael Ignatieff? That's a very expensive pipe dream.

No, not quite. Everyone has prejudice and bias. It's the way we are. Black people are less likely to be hired than white. Just a plain fact.

Not in the NBA.

No, everyone deserves the same start, the same base from which to climb the proverbial mountain. Why should some kids have an exponentially harder time just because they were born in the same area?

Because that's how resources are allocated.

This isn't victim mentality. If we're going to be quite honest here, the only mentality is a hidden one. It's a mentality of "I don't want to pay" even if paying means a stronger community, a stronger economy and a safer society. Coming from the right wing which constantly plays up christian and family values, moral outrage over trying to help kids make it in life is hilarious. It's hypocritical.

No more than legal abortions or a permanent welfare class for political power.

[lictor616]

No, everyone deserves the same start, the same base from which to climb the proverbial mountain. Why should some kids have an exponentially harder time just because they were born in the same area? This isn't victim mentality. If we're going to be quite honest here, the only mentality is a hidden one. It's a mentality of "I don't want to pay" even if paying means a stronger community, a stronger economy and a safer society. Coming from the right wing which constantly plays up christian and family values, moral outrage over trying to help kids make it in life is hilarious. It's hypocritical.

exponentially harder?

Really need to tone down the revolutionary rhetoric here, no one can have THE SAME START... there will never be a point in time when everyone is born in the same circumstances, I know it was a Marxist dream to "eliminate" bourgeois kids who had "better chances" then others by raising children in pens... but even in such an unnatural and hellish setting, humans by the very law of human evolution, not reach equal heights in life.

Humans are differently gifted, your view foolishly completely ignores the NATURE aspect of the nature vs nurture debate that underlines what you say. You cannot give to children intelligence they did not inherit at birth. Education (nurture) is very important, but it isn't enough by itself. The outcomes will always reflect the diversity and hence inequality of human genetics.

And I have a problem with the concept of "deserving"... children are entitled to whatever their parents can provide them with... you make it sound like they have some divine right to something... how do you figure they are OWED this?

And either way, socialists have been playing around with the education system since the 60's, most of our education ministers in this country have socialist leanings and backgrounds... the same can be said of the US which started its ludicrous "busing campaign" which fetched inner city black kids at ENORMOUS cost to haul them to white schools.

the result? Third world nations that invest a slither of what we pay for education are now beginning to overtake us in scientific literacy, mathematical literacy and in nearly every other field. The US educational system has been passing illiterate inner city blacks for decades now (even with multi billion dollar schemes like the No Child Left Behind Act to artificially prop them up).

and here you are saying we need more of these failed ways?

We will never have strong stable communities through socialist big-government intrusion and manipulation. And no amount of affirmative action will "boost" natural ability.

[Smallc]

In Canada we have a much higher rate of taxation

Actually, we don't.

[bush_cheney2004]

the result? Third world nations that invest a slither of what we pay for education are now beginning to overtake us in scientific literacy, mathematical literacy and in nearly every other field. The US educational system has been passing illiterate inner city blacks for decades now (even with multi billion dollar schemes like the No Child Left Behind Act to artificially prop them up).

Your own hyperbolic rhetoric to match....many of these "third world nations" invest more than a slither by sending their students to the "US educational system".

[bush_cheney2004]

In Canada we have a much higher rate of taxation and regulation. Look where the US is compared to Canada in terms of economic health. Not really a good comparison.

No..it's not, as Canada is far more dependent on investment capital from and exports to the United States. Canada also lacks regulation and standards in many areas, often depending on the USA to lead the way.

Who said there wouldn't be winners and losers? I'm talking about giving kids the same tools to compete. Shouldn't that be a good thing?

No...parents give the most to kids in many contexts...are you prepared to give government that role too? Of course you are!

Edited July 12, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[nicky10013]

No..it's not, as Canada is far more dependent on investment capital from and exports to the United States. Canada also lacks regulation and standards in many areas, often depending on the USA to lead the way.

Yeah, like regulations on relief wells.

No...parents give the most to kids in many contexts...are you prepared to give government that role too? Of course you are!

Good parents are the other side of the argument but no govermnet can legislate good parenthood. Perhaps tax credits for parenting courses? That's about as far as I can think of.

[nicky10013]

Actually, we don't.

Corporate, no. Payroll and sales tax we pay 5-10% more per tax. Depending on province.

[bush_cheney2004]

Yeah, like regulations on relief wells.

Yep....relief wells, raw sewage discharges (e.g. Vancouver), motor vehicle emissions standards, civil and commercial building codes, etc., etc.

Good parents are the other side of the argument but no govermnet can legislate good parenthood. Perhaps tax credits for parenting courses? That's about as far as I can think of.

Not far enough...you can never "equalize" that. Life is not fair.

[nicky10013]

exponentially harder?

Really need to tone down the revolutionary rhetoric here, no one can have THE SAME START... there will never be a point in time when everyone is born in the same circumstances, I know it was a Marxist dream to "eliminate" bourgeois kids who had "better chances" then others by raising children in pens... but even in such an unnatural and hellish setting, humans by the very law of human evolution, not reach equal heights in life.

I don't think a perfect equilibrium exists and I don't think it can. That doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't do better.

Humans are differently gifted, your view foolishly completely ignores the NATURE aspect of the nature vs nurture debate that underlines what you say. You cannot give to children intelligence they did not inherit at birth. Education (nurture) is very important, but it isn't enough by itself. The outcomes will always reflect the diversity and hence inequality of human genetics.

People are indeed differently abled, though they're all equally capable. Thank god we have different types of schools for people interested in different things.

And I have a problem with the concept of "deserving"... children are entitled to whatever their parents can provide them with... you make it sound like they have some divine right to something... how do you figure they are OWED this?

Because they're kids and they are the future of this country. You want to throw kids under the bus because their parents didn't do well, that's your call. Don't complain when 15 years later they're breaking into your house stealing your TV or worse because believe me, with that attitude this is where it ends.

And either way, socialists have been playing around with the education system since the 60's, most of our education ministers in this country have socialist leanings and backgrounds... the same can be said of the US which started its ludicrous "busing campaign" which fetched inner city black kids at ENORMOUS cost to haul them to white schools.

the result? Third world nations that invest a slither of what we pay for education are now beginning to overtake us in scientific literacy, mathematical literacy and in nearly every other field. The US educational system has been passing illiterate inner city blacks for decades now (even with multi billion dollar schemes like the No Child Left Behind Act to artificially prop them up).

and here you are saying we need more of these failed ways?

Not every approach works. Throwing money at the problem doesn't necessarily solve problems. That doesn't mean there isn't an answer to the education problem. As I mentioned, European states have been able to do well, why can't we?

We will never have strong stable communities through socialist big-government intrusion and manipulation. And no amount of affirmative action will "boost" natural ability.

You don't know what big government is. Until you do, stop trying.

[nicky10013]

Not far enough...you can never "equalize" that. Life is not fair.

Ah, so the answer is to give up?

[Smallc]

Corporate, no. Payroll and sales tax we pay 5-10% more per tax. Depending on province.

Overall, Canada has taxes take up 5.5% more of the economy....and the difference is shrinking.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ah, so the answer is to give up?

No....the answer is to compete regardless of challenges. Your broad liberal brush of dependency and solutions is far more debilitating.

[lictor616]

People who benefit from affirmative action put far more back into their communities which aren't usually that good. If you want to look to a true standard of a well run state, look to Scandanavia. Rock bottom crime, high education rates, strong economic growth. You can throw every cliche you want at the wall against it, but nothing will make that not true.

sky high suicide rates...

its nice that you completely ignore the fact that affirmative action is racial quota system that artificially boosts minority employment, and cost ridiculous amounts to manage each year and weaken our economy by often placing less skilled candidates into positions simply because of their race. (oh and what was that you said about believing in everyone having equal starts?... yeah bs hypocrisy)...

And I,d really love to see the stats on affirmative action recipients taking their salaries and injecting them in thier stereotypical "hoods". In fact I'd wager they flee and take their new salaries with them.

Sweden is such a devastating argument against your position, Sweden is undoubtedly gifted by its genetic heritage (probably the MOST gifted), and thanks to its brilliant national syndicalism (which is closer to National Socialism or Italian "Edmondo Rossoni" type fascism) they are a stupendously successful state, trading goods that are renown world wide: Ikea, H&M, Absolute Vodka, Nokia, Nokian tires... the physical excellence of Swedish women etc...

Today Sweden is beginning an educational system collapse, huge waves of immigrants (especially from sub saharan africa) has resulted in many schools being shut down, their standards lowered to accommodate the immigrants... and as if that wasn't enough, the raucous and thankless immigrants are not above raping, killing, murdering Swedes: http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/757-Pan-European-Arab-Muslim-Gang-Rape-Epidemic.html

and burning their own schools down: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10276738.stm

the costs of policing these creatures is beginning to pose economic problems. And with the typical generosity and "niceness" of Scandinavians, its not likely that they'll reach a workable solution.

You can look at ANY region in the world, but your cliché excuses simply don't stick... blacks will be blacks, no matter where they are... What will you blame the appalling behavior of Sub Saharan immigrants in Sweden on now? Slavery? Mommy didn't hug them enough? White suburbia? seriously!

Its quite likely that this wave of immigration is going to turn this wonderful nation into a huge wasteland. oh and if demographic trends persist, we won't be getting anymore mystical Swedish Bikini teams to grace our calendars and sports illustrated. But i'm sure you'd like that.

[nicky10013]

sky high suicide rates...

its nice that you completely ignore the fact that affirmative action is racial quota system that artificially boosts minority employment, and cost ridiculous amounts to manage each year and weaken our economy by often placing less skilled candidates into positions simply because of their race. (oh and what was that you said about believing in everyone having equal starts?... yeah bs hypocrisy)...

And I,d really love to see the stats on affirmative action recipients taking their salaries and injecting them in thier stereotypical "hoods". In fact I'd wager they flee and take their new salaries with them.

Sweden is such a devastating argument against your position, Sweden is undoubtedly gifted by its genetic heritage (probably the MOST gifted), and thanks to its brilliant national syndicalism (which is closer to National Socialism or Italian "Edmondo Rossoni" type fascism) they are a stupendously successful state, trading goods that are renown world wide: Ikea, H&M, Absolute Vodka, Nokia, Nokian tires... the physical excellence of Swedish women etc...

Today Sweden is beginning an educational system collapse, huge waves of immigrants (especially from sub saharan africa) has resulted in many schools being shut down, their standards lowered to accommodate the immigrants... and as if that wasn't enough, the raucous and thankless immigrants are not above raping, killing, murdering Swedes: http://www.iris.org.il/blog/archives/757-Pan-European-Arab-Muslim-Gang-Rape-Epidemic.html

and burning their own schools down: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/europe/10276738.stm

the costs of policing these creatures is beginning to pose economic problems. And with the typical generosity and "niceness" of Scandinavians, its not likely that they'll reach a workable solution.

You can look at ANY region in the world, but your cliché excuses simply don't stick... blacks will be blacks, no matter where they are... What will you blame the appalling behavior of Sub Saharan immigrants in Sweden on now? Slavery? Mommy didn't hug them enough? White suburbia? seriously!

Its quite likely that this wave of immigration is going to turn this wonderful nation into a huge wasteland. oh and if demographic trends persist, we won't be getting anymore mystical Swedish Bikini teams to grace our calendars and sports illustrated. But i'm sure you'd like that.

Ahhhh so it's the Northern European's racial purity. I've heard that argument before.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ahhhh so it's the Northern European's racial purity. I've heard that argument before.

Yea...they got their asses handed to them by impure "mongrels" during WW2.

[lictor616]

People are indeed differently abled, though they're all equally capable. Thank god we have different types of schools for people interested in different things.

wow my jaw dropped at that bit of nonsense!

That's transparently false, how can you be differently ABLED and simultaneously "AS CAPABLE"? The two concepts are mutually exclusive... like dry water.

A child with a low IQ is not equally capable to a bright high IQ child BECAUSE he lags in ability!

how old are you by the way?

[Jack Weber]

Ahhhh so it's the Northern European's racial purity. I've heard that argument before.

Ja...Don't you zee...Za Fuhrer vas right!!!

Sieg Heil,stumpig!!!Sieg Heil!!!!

Edited July 12, 2010 by Jack Weber