Senior NDPer denies Israel's right to exist

[Bortron]

There are no natural "rights" to land or such exterminations, just the will and power to possess and defend against all enemies seeking same. Canada and America killed and subjugated their "PalestIndians" long ago.

I was hoping the lack of "rights" would be implied by the absurdity of my statements. Of course your correct no one has natural rights but the Jewish people wouldn't agree with that. They believe they do have a right and that's what they use to justify their actions and that is why they are wrong.

[bush_cheney2004]

I was hoping the lack of "rights" would be implied by the absurdity of my statements. Of course your correct no one has natural rights but the Jewish people wouldn't agree with that. They believe they do have a right and that's what they use to justify their actions and that is why they are wrong.

Well, from a practical point of view, Israel can believe in such a "right" just as much as any other sovereign state. Hell, Israel proper has more international legitimacy than Canada or the USA based on how it was established and recognized.

[Bortron]

I see you feel a great deal of white liberal guilt.

You grossly misunderstand me my friend. I have no guilt. It is what it is. I just don't like all the whining and and spinning of the truth. The Israeli's are an occupying force if they would just admit it I wouldn't have such a problem with them. I can admit that white people like myself came here and destroyed another people and took there homes because they were too weak to defend themselves; I'm cool with it. The problem for Israel is they didn't destroy their enemy like we did and their enemy will be stronger then them one day; its all strategically very unsound. I highly doubt any Palestinian patriot rotting in Israeli prisons would agree about the "free" nature of Israel. I don't support either side, to me they are both unreasonable religious fanatics. I've done all the research that can be done. You should try to understand what a person is saying before you make critical comments. I am a moderate pragmatist, not a left-wing bleeding heart. Also your comment implies that if they returned to their country of origin they will be treated like second class citizens; I highly doubt this would happen, after all the Holocaust guilt of the West still has some tread left I'm sure they can milk it for a few more decades. Alas they wont leave until it's too late anyways.

Edited July 3, 2010 by Bortron

[bloodyminded]

It's been up for debate since the end of World War 2 and it will continue to be up for debate for as long as it exists, we're debating it right now. I've read books on the topic, such as The Case for Israel (2003) by Alan Dershowitz; their arguments are unconvincing. Do you suggest that I have a right to my ancestral lands in Scotland? Or better yet the Annapolis valley in Nova Scotia? I am of Acadian descent and my people were forcibly deported from their lands only 255 years ago. Do I have the right to go there with my bulldozer and remove peoples homes? The Jews that were there before 1948 have every right to stay I am only referring to the vast majority that came from Europe that are phenotypically white Europeans, and their descendants. Then again perhaps they have the right of the conqueror as we do here in Canada and the United States. If you except the right of the conqueror then they have every right to exist and they have a right to exterminate the Palestinians much like the British did to the Natives here in Nova Scotia and other parts of North America, we even had a bounty on their scalpes. But they wont leave your 100% correct but just because they wont do something doesn't mean it wouldn't be a solution, and from where I'm standing it's the only peaceful solution. The other options all end in violence and death for millions, and if we live long enough I'm sure we'll get to witness it. Like I said it's a sad hopeless situation.

Like I said, I no doubt sympathize with many of your views regarding the Palestinians. I've been in many a heated debate over just this matter, reading preposterous claims that the aggressor state is a shining beacon of innocence while their victims deserve everything they get, and more.

where we disagree is on the right of the state to exist. Even insofar as your points have some merit, I don't know why they wouldn't apply moreso to Canada and to the U.S.

Saying "go away" is not a workable premise to start from, because it's a non-starter. I mean, people are often saying that the Palestinians should "just go away"...and of course that's not going to happen either, so I don't consider it a strong argument.

Edited July 3, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Bonam]

Like I said, I no doubt sympathize with many of your views regarding the Palestinians. I've been in many a heated debate over just this matter, reading preposterous claims that the aggressor state is a shining beacon of innocence while their victims deserve everything they get, and more.

where we disagree is on the right of the state to exist. Even insofar as your points have some merit, I don't know why they wouldn't apply moreso to Canada and to the U.S.

Saying "go away" is not a workable premise to start from, because it's a non-starter. I mean, people are often saying that the Palestinians should "just go away"...and of course that's not going to happen either, so I don't consider it a strong argument.

Good to see your opposition (reserved as it is) to Bortron's views. Means you are at least a somewhat honest debater on this topic rather than just an anti-Israeli hack.

[Bortron]

Like I said, I no doubt sympathize with many of your views regarding the Palestinians. I've been in many a heated debate over just this matter, reading preposterous claims that the aggressor state is a shining beacon of innocence while their victims deserve everything they get, and more.

where we disagree is on the right of the state to exist. Even insofar as your points have some merit, I don't know why they wouldn't apply moreso to Canada and to the U.S.

Saying "go away" is not a workable premise to start from, because it's a non-starter. I mean, people are often saying that the Palestinians should "just go away"...and of course that's not going to happen either, so I don't consider it a strong argument.

Canada and the United States have probably less "right" to exist then Israel if you believe people have a right too land. No one has a natural right to land in my opinion which is, in a nut shell so to speak, basically what I'm getting at. If you disagree with that it's cool, your entitled to your opinion but I think it's this righteous claim that makes Israel wrong from a moral standpoint. Israel is an occupying force and it's that simple and they have put themselves in a very poor position from a strategic point of view. The end result will be their destruction. Unlike Canada and the US they have not destroyed or subjugated the native population of the land they are occupying; they have done quite the opposite. They have turned a loosely affiliated group of people into a nation that's whole identity is based around bringing about Israel's destruction and they gain strength every year that passes while Israel grows weaker and more isolated.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Bortron

[Bonam]

Israel is an occupying force and it's that simple and they have put themselves in a very poor position from a strategic point of view. The end result will be their destruction. Unlike Canada and the US they have not destroyed or subjugated the native population of the land they are occupying; they have done quite the opposite.

So your recommendation is for Israel to exterminate the Palestinians, because anything else is a strategic mistake?

[Bortron]

Good to see your opposition (reserved as it is) to Bortron's views. Means you are at least a somewhat honest debater on this topic rather than just an anti-Israeli hack.

lol I'm not an anti-Israeli hack. I don't support the Israeli's or the Palestinians, both sides are full of religious fanatics. I'm just pointing out that Israel plays the victim when they are the obvious aggressor in this situation and that they have made numerous strategic mistakes that will most likely lead to their demise. So I guess I'm just anti-foolish.

[Bortron]

So your recommendation is for Israel to exterminate the Palestinians, because anything else is a strategic mistake?

Extermination of a designated ethnic group would, obviously, also be a mistake because it would turn the world against them; at least at this point in time it would be a mistake who knows what the future may bring. They should simply pack up and leave, but they wont. They have put themselves in a really shitty situation, don't ya think? The only possible peaceful solution is for them to give up and everyone educated on this topic must see that even if they wont admit it. The Palestinians will never stop hating them, it has become part of who they are as a nation. I don't know about you but if a foreign army rolled into my community and killed a few of my friends and family I would devote the rest of my life to destroying those people and that is what is happening here, and it's a two way street.

[Bonam]

lol I'm not an anti-Israeli hack.

...

I'm just pointing out that Israel plays the victim when they are the obvious aggressor in this situation

Why is Israel the "obvious aggressor"? Israel exists, and has now for 3 generations. The land of Israel proper is inhabited by Israelis, many of which were born there and have lived there their whole lives.

Saying that Israel is the "aggressor" may have some truth to it when it comes to settlements in the West Bank, but to apply that to the whole state of Israel? No, that is simply undermining its right to exist, and thus the right of Jews to have a national home, thus their right to be safe from violence and discrimination which they have experienced for thousands of years when living among the nations of others.

To suggest that Israel should not exist, that the Jews should "go home" to Europe (as if that is their home, what an idiotic statement), is a perfect example of being an "anti-Israeli hack".

As for mistakes leading to Israel's demise... no nation lasts forever. Many of the greatest and most influential civilization in history rose and fell in spans of a few hundred years. A thousand years is a span which only a very few nations have managed to endure.

Now as for Israel, I think it has better chances to survive for a good long time than you might think. For one, contrary to your earlier statement, the population of Israeli Jews is rapidly increasing. In fact, I believe it is one of if not the fastest growing populations of any advanced (first world) country anywhere on Earth. Almost all of Europe is in population decline, and America is just holding itself at replacement birth rates, while the Israeli population is flourishing. Secondly, the major nations surrounding Israel have mostly given up on their old hopes of driving it into the sea, and several have come to rely on trade with Israel. Thirdly, Israel's security situation has continued to improve in recent years, with advancements such as the construction of the barrier to prevent the entry of suicide bombers, improved surveillance technology employed by the IDF, and now the deployment of advanced anti-missile, anti-rocket, and anti-mortar systems which will drastically reduce the threat posed by rockets fired by terrorist groups. Besides the specter of an Iranian nuclear threat, Israel is more secure now than it has been since its creation. Fourth, Israel is one of the world's centers of technological and scientific innovation, and these are the drivers of progress, wealth, and power in our modern world.

Israel is very likely to outlast most of the regimes surrounding it. Already, regimes in both Iraq and Iran have risen and fell, Afghanistan has been conquered and occupied multiple times, Kuwait has been overrun, Lebanon plunged into terrible instability, while Israel endured. How long can the monarchies, sultanates, theocracies, and dictatorships around it really last in this age of ever growing access to information? As these people eventually build more enlightened societies, the threat to Israel will continue to decrease. Or if they fail to do so, Israel will simply remain far ahead of them in terms of economy, technology, and military power.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Bonam

[Bonam]

They should simply pack up and leave, but they wont.

You need to stop with this nonsense. The vast majority of Jews living in Israel today were born there. They have nowhere to pack up and leave to, even if they wanted to.

The Palestinians will never stop hating them, it has become part of who they are as a nation.

Yay for them. Hating isn't gonna get them very far.

They have put themselves in a really shitty situation, don't ya think?

I would say that the position that Jews are in in Israel is significantly better than the position that Jews had been in historically prior to Israel's creation.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Bonam

[Bortron]

You need to stop with this nonsense. The vast majority of Jews living in Israel today were born there. They have nowhere to pack up and leave to, even if they wanted to.

Yay for them. Hating isn't gonna get them very far.

I would say that the position that Jews are in in Israel is significantly better than the position that Jews had been in historically prior to Israel's creation.

lol You gotta be Jewish or an evangelical Christian. I wasn't talking about any regime but Israel my friend, I have little love for the Muslim world however and agree with your apparent attitude towards them. If Israel survives the shit storm they have brewed they will have my respect, unfortunately I probably wont live to see the end of it all. You should also keep in mind that Israel's existence is intrinsically tied to the United States... and well it's obvious that the US has seen better days in regards to its power and influence on the international stage. Time will tell. Forget about the moral and political position you have chosen for yourself and simply see this for what it is. That's all I'm doing. Look beyond good and evil.

[Bonam]

You should also keep in mind that Israel's existence is intrinsically tied to the United States... and well it's obvious that the US has seen better days in regards to its power and influence on the international stage.

A common misconception, on both counts. First, Israel did just fine before it had the US as a patron, and would continue to do fine without US support. Though it may put it in a somewhat harder situation, it has an intelligent and resourceful population, a prosperous economy, and a powerful military industry which could still produce what was needed for defense without American support. Second, the US is still near the very peak of its power. It is only in the last twenty years that the USA has emerged as the world's sole and unchallenged superpower. Other nations, such as China, which were long in poverty, are now beginning to emerge and demonstrate rapid economic growth and technological progress, but there is no guarantee that they will surpass the US, which remains beyond compare the world's greatest source of technological progress, scientific discovery, and military innovation.

[TheLastCanadian]

I just dislike the people that think Israel has any legitimate claim to that area specifically. The fact is, people live there right now, and they are not interested in being subjected to Israel.

You have the diaspora, the Jews move out for over 800 years, then they expect they can come back and act like it was their land all along?

Edited July 4, 2010 by TheLastCanadian

[Bonam]

I just dislike the people that think Israel has any legitimate claim to that area specifically. The fact is, people live there right now, and they are not interested in being subjected to Israel.

Yes, people live there now. You know who most of those people are? Israelis.

[Bortron]

A common misconception, on both counts. First, Israel did just fine before it had the US as a patron, and would continue to do fine without US support. Though it may put it in a somewhat harder situation, it has an intelligent and resourceful population, a prosperous economy, and a powerful military industry which could still produce what was needed for defense without American support. Second, the US is still near the very peak of its power. It is only in the last twenty years that the USA has emerged as the world's sole and unchallenged superpower. Other nations, such as China, which were long in poverty, are now beginning to emerge and demonstrate rapid economic growth and technological progress, but there is no guarantee that they will surpass the US, which remains beyond compare the world's greatest source of technological progress, scientific discovery, and military innovation.

So when exactly did the US become their Patron and more importantly why? I can't wait to see what you regurgitate for me. (yawn) By the way what are you? A Jew or an evangelical Christian?

Edited July 4, 2010 by Bortron

[Bonam]

So when exactly did the US become their Patron and more importantly why? I can't wait to see what you regurgitate for me. (yawn)

Significant US support (as in substantial material support not "moral support") for Israel began in the years following the 1967 war. This is historical fact you can look up for yourself.

[Bonam]

By the way what are you? A Jew or an evangelical Christian?

I am an atheist, not that it should matter. And yourself?

[Bortron]

Significant US support (as in substantial material support not "moral support") for Israel began in the years following the 1967 war. This is historical fact you can look up for yourself.

Yeah that's basically what I figured you'd say, figured it would be a little less condensed, ya must be tired. Nothing you say really matters to what I'm saying here though, which is that Israel is an occupying force and no one nation has a right to land unless they can defend it, which Israel can't do without a lot of bloodshed for both sides. I'm not saying Israel is right or wrong that's up for you to decide, you seem to have decided they are right. I personally believe that neither side is right. All I'm doing is calling it as I see it, if magically everything suddenly changes I'll call that as I see it too. It's good to see ya know the facts though, it's unfortunate you don't know how to interpret them unbiasedly.

[Bonam]

Yeah that's basically what I figured you'd say, figured it would be a little less condensed, ya must be tired.

You figured I'd say a correct historical fact in response to a question about it? I guess I can give you points for having rational expectations if not much else...

Nothing you say really matters to what I'm saying here though,

If you believe nothing that the people you disagree with say matters, why bother debating in the first place? Just seal yourself up in an echo chamber and enjoy.

which is that Israel is an occupying force and no one nation has a right to land unless they can defend it

Israel can defend it, and has defended it, many times since its creation.

which Israel can't do without a lot of bloodshed for both sides.

Umm yeah, hate to break it to you, but defense, that is war, generally involves bloodshed. If people want to avoid bloodshed, they can try *gasp* not attacking.

All I'm doing is calling it as I see it

Yeah I got that part. Here's how "you see it": the Israeli Jews are some monolithic entity which somehow "magically" have a home in Europe that they should somehow return to. This is of course despite the fact that most of them were born and have lived their lives in Israel, somehow their home is still supposedly in Europe. Let me know when you come up with a more logical position.

if magically everything suddenly changes I'll call that as I see it too.

Another hate to break it to you moment, but the real world doesn't work by "magic". I'd comment on the existence of Santa Claus but I'd hate to leave you too disappointed after just one post...

Edited July 4, 2010 by Bonam

[Bortron]

I am an atheist, not that it should matter. And yourself?

What I am would take much too long to explain. I kinda lean towards what Einstein had to say about god and religion I suppose; if that helps any. I was an atheist once when I was about 12 or 13 for about 10 min, it was a depressing 10 min. For an Atheist you feel strongly about Israel... figured an Atheist would be against a Theocracy, well theocracy might be too strong of a word but ya know what I mean.

[Bortron]

You figured I'd say a correct historical fact in response to a question about it? I guess I can give you points for having rational expectations if not much else...

If you believe nothing that the people you disagree with say matters, why bother debating in the first place? Just seal yourself up in an echo chamber and enjoy.

Israel can defend it, and has defended it, many times since its creation.

Umm yeah, hate to break it to you, but defense, that is war, generally involves bloodshed. If people want to avoid bloodshed, they can try *gasp* not attacking.

Yeah I got that part. Here's how "you see it": the Israeli Jews are some monolithic entity which somehow "magically" have a home in Europe that they should somehow return to. This is of course despite the fact that most of them were born and have lived their lives in Israel, somehow their home is still supposedly in Europe. Let me know when you come up with a more logical position.

Another hate to break it to you moment, but the real world doesn't work by "magic". I'd comment on the existence of Santa Claus but I'd hate to leave you too disappointed after just one post...

I'm just presenting the situation, everything you said is correct. They can go ahead and defend themselves forever if they can and that's what they like to do. I'm not exactly sure what we disagree on here.... do you not believe they are an occupying force? I think they fit the definition but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong with some evidence. I'm sure many of them have citizenship in other nations from what I understand, I guess the ones that don't are in a shitty situation eh? Sorry you don't like the word magical, I thought it got my point across. I'm debating because I like to see what people like you think, ya know curiosity. Just once I'd like something original; ya failed me buddy.

Edited July 4, 2010 by Bortron

[Bonam]

What I am would take much too long to explain. I kinda lean towards what Einstein had to say about god and religion I suppose; if that helps any. I was an atheist once when I was about 12 or 13 for about 10 min, it was a depressing 10 min. For an Atheist you feel strongly about Israel... figured an Atheist would be against a Theocracy, well theocracy might be too strong of a word but ya know what I mean.

Israel is far from a theocracy (as you seem to recognize). Given that Israel is a Jewish state, it is unavoidable that the institutions of Judaism would have an impact on it. I too would prefer if it was more secular of a state. Remember, however, that it is by far the most secular state in the region, and inhabitants have freedom of religion (including freedom of nonreligion), unlike in most of its Arab neighbors.

[Bortron]

Israel is far from a theocracy (as you seem to recognize). Given that Israel is a Jewish state, it is unavoidable that the institutions of Judaism would have an impact on it. I too would prefer if it was more secular of a state. Remember, however, that it is by far the most secular state in the region, and inhabitants have freedom of religion (including freedom of nonreligion), unlike in most of its Arab neighbors.

Well I don't have any love for the Muslim states either. Still find it hard to believe your simply an Atheist, sure your not Jewish?

[Bonam]

I'm just presenting the situation, everything you said is correct. They can go ahead and defend themselves forever if they can and that's what they like to do. I'm not exactly sure what we disagree on here.... do you not believe they are an occupying force?

When it comes to certain areas of the West Bank, one can make the argument that Israel acts as an occupying force, and the legitimacy and justification for such occupation can be debated reasonably. However, within Israel proper, I most certainly disagree that they are an occupying force. Even most of Israel's harshest critics agree that within its proper borders, Israel is a legitimate state.

I think they fit the definition but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong with some evidence.

Whom exactly are they occupying within Israel proper? The Israeli Arabs that live there and enjoy a greater standard of living than almost all their peers in the Arab world?

I'm sure many of them have citizenship in other nations from what I understand

You understand wrong. If you want to make such a ridiculous assertion, you need to back it up.

I guess the ones that don't are in a shitty situation eh?

Not that shitty. They still get to live in one of the world's advanced nations, enjoy all/most of the freedoms that we enjoy in Western societies, have access to state of the art education, healthcare, etc. Of course it would be better without the constant threat of their angry neighbors, but all in all, people living in Israel are not that bad off.

I'm debating because I like to see what people like you think, ya know curiosity. Just once I'd like something original; ya failed me buddy.

Only a few days and a dozen posts and already disappointed and bored at lack of originality? The Israeli-Palestinian issue has been debated ad nauseam both here and elsewhere. You should take a look at some of the global warming threads on this forum where the same nonsense gets spat back and forth for hundreds of pages... methinks you aren't gonna last long on this board.