Religion has no place in politics!

[Uncle 3 dogs]

No good can come from mixing the two. A politician's religion should be as irrellevant as his or her sexual orientation. Neither personalcharacteristic should have any effect on their performance. At least, if we expect that it will be true in the end. Once people start voting based on these irrellevant characteristics they will become relevant and we will live in a theocracy. NO! NO!

We should remove public support for religious schools and remove any reference to god in any of our laws, including the constitution. Churches should be taxed like any other business.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Uncle 3 dogs

[Borg]

No good can come from mixing the two. A politician's religion should be as irrellevant as his or her sexual orientation. Neither personalcharacteristic should have any effect on their performance. At least, if we expect that it will be true in the end. Once people start voting based on these irrellevant characteristics they will become relevant and we will live in a theocracy. NO! NO!

We should remove public support for religious schools and remove any reference to god in any of our laws, including the constitution. Churches should be taxed like any other business.

How un-Canuckian of you. LOL

Borg

[Shwa]

No religion or sex in politics; no politics and sex in religion; no religion and politics in sex. (Although, with the latter, 'religion in sex' might be simply saying, "Oh Gawd, I'm coming.")

Yeah, that does sound somewhat Borg-like. Or British, take your pick. But either way VERY boring!

But seriously, if you want to get a grassroots movement underway, and I don't mean a poop in a field, check the stats first to gauge the potential of keeping religion out of Canadian politics or anything else.

Demographics of Canada - Religion

Doesn't look good for this millenium. Perhaps in another thousand years we might give it a shot?

[wyly]

No religion or sex in politics; no politics and sex in religion; no religion and politics in sex. (Although, with the latter, 'religion in sex' might be simply saying, "Oh Gawd, I'm coming.")

Yeah, that does sound somewhat Borg-like. Or British, take your pick. But either way VERY boring!

But seriously, if you want to get a grassroots movement underway, and I don't mean a poop in a field, check the stats first to gauge the potential of keeping religion out of Canadian politics or anything else.

Demographics of Canada - Religion

Doesn't look good for this millenium. Perhaps in another thousand years we might give it a shot?

give it 30 yrs tops, atheists are the fastest growing demographic in Canada estimates are 20-30% of the population or 6-10,000,000 Canadians, exact numberss are hard to pin because people are guarded about their opinions on lack of belief ...among teens atheists are equal in in number to Catholics and outnumber protestants and all other religious beliefs combined...between 1991 and 2001 Christians grew in number by 1.5%, atheists by 37.7%...in ten year atheists will make up the largest single demographic in Canada

by 2050 religion will be a non-factor in Canadian politics...

[Shady]

give it 30 yrs tops, atheists are the fastest growing demographic in Canada estimates are 20-30% of the population or 6-10,000,000 Canadians, exact numberss are hard to pin because people are guarded about their opinions on lack of belief ...among teens atheists are equal in in number to Catholics and outnumber protestants and all other religious beliefs combined...between 1991 and 2001 Christians grew in number by 1.5%, atheists by 37.7%...in ten year atheists will make up the largest single demographic in Canada

by 2050 religion will be a non-factor in Canadian politics...

Complete nonsense.

[Shwa]

give it 30 yrs tops, atheists are the fastest growing demographic in Canada estimates are 20-30% of the population or 6-10,000,000 Canadians, exact numberss are hard to pin because people are guarded about their opinions on lack of belief ...among teens atheists are equal in in number to Catholics and outnumber protestants and all other religious beliefs combined...between 1991 and 2001 Christians grew in number by 1.5%, atheists by 37.7%...in ten year atheists will make up the largest single demographic in Canada

by 2050 religion will be a non-factor in Canadian politics...

That is interesting. However, if you review the wiki page, it shows quite a few non-Christian religions having double the growth rates of non-affiliates. And remember, non-affiliates could also mean agnostic as well as atheist (and new agers, wiccans, pagans...)

I think your date for religion being a non-factor in Canadian politics in 2050 is quite optimistic.

[Uncle 3 dogs]

give it 30 yrs tops, atheists are the fastest growing demographic in Canada estimates are 20-30% of the population or 6-10,000,000 Canadians, exact numberss are hard to pin because people are guarded about their opinions on lack of belief ...among teens atheists are equal in in number to Catholics and outnumber protestants and all other religious beliefs combined...between 1991 and 2001 Christians grew in number by 1.5%, atheists by 37.7%...in ten year atheists will make up the largest single demographic in Canada

by 2050 religion will be a non-factor in Canadian politics...

While I would welcome it, we don't need athiests to be a majority to have politics be secular,ie: not connected in any way to religion.

[WIP]

No good can come from mixing the two. A politician's religion should be as irrellevant as his or her sexual orientation. Neither personalcharacteristic should have any effect on their performance. At least, if we expect that it will be true in the end. Once people start voting based on these irrellevant characteristics they will become relevant and we will live in a theocracy. NO! NO!

Canada has followed the spirit of Separation of Church and State even though it's not actually in the Charter. Maybe we should start thinking about protecting secular institutions now that America has a dedicated Christian Right chipping away at their 'wall of separation.'

We should remove public support for religious schools and remove any reference to god in any of our laws, including the constitution. Churches should be taxed like any other business.

Unless I'm wrong, the only reference to God in Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is found in the preamble, which constitutional scholars have generally agreed would have no legal force -- so a statement recognizing "the supremacy of God" could not be used to undermine the freedom of conscience of an atheist to be forced into some sort of religious observance.

I don't agree with changing the tax exempt status of churches(as long as they're not mega-churches taking advantage of the church designation). Churches have historically fulfilled many roles in the community that aren't covered by government institutions, or if they were, would add to the cost of government-provided social services.

[WIP]

give it 30 yrs tops, atheists are the fastest growing demographic in Canada estimates are 20-30% of the population or 6-10,000,000 Canadians, exact numberss are hard to pin because people are guarded about their opinions on lack of belief ...among teens atheists are equal in in number to Catholics and outnumber protestants and all other religious beliefs combined...between 1991 and 2001 Christians grew in number by 1.5%, atheists by 37.7%...in ten year atheists will make up the largest single demographic in Canada

by 2050 religion will be a non-factor in Canadian politics...

The first problem here is conflating organized religion with belief in God -- they do not necessarily go together. There are some atheists or agnostics who belong to very liberal churches for fellowship or social action. The Unitarian/Universalists estimate that 20 to 25% of members identify as atheists or agnostics. On the other hand, most of those "unaffiliated" in the survey believe in some form of God, they just don't like organized religion, or no longer feel that they need to be a member of a religion.

Some pop atheist writers like Dawkins for example, have made a big production about the decline in organized religion in Western Europe and concluded that it also means a growth in atheism or agnosticism. The real story is that people living comfortably in nations like Sweden or Denmark, which have a high level of government-provided services, do not have much need for a church. But in third world countries, or in nations on their way to third world status, like the U.S.A., organized religion is growing, out of necessity. Whether the churches grow or decline in Canada will depend more on economics and what level of government services we choose to fund, rather than our metaphysical beliefs.

That wishful thinking that Richard Dawkins has about atheism growing and becoming the majority is out of step with research done in psychology and neuroscience, which is drawing towards a general conclusion that we use different levels of intuition and rationalizing to form beliefs. Those who rely more on intuition also score higher on scales of supernatural thinking and belief in the paranormal...and although this does not necessarily mean belief in a divine creator, it is more likely they will continue to believe in God, rather than be an atheist.

[Shady]

The first problem here is conflating organized religion with belief in God -- they do not necessarily go together.

Exactly right. One can believe in God but not affiliate themselves with any organized religion. That's more likely to be the trend than the athiest path.

[Oleg Bach]

To late - religion has effected and formed all politics thus far..Politics is now a religion - perhaps those who think that religion has no place in politics should re-phrase the statement and say - morality and goodness have no place in politics---oooops - we already have that - praise the lord and pass the bribe.

[wyly]

The first problem here is conflating organized religion with belief in God -- they do not necessarily go together. There are some atheists or agnostics who belong to very liberal churches for fellowship or social action. The Unitarian/Universalists estimate that 20 to 25% of members identify as atheists or agnostics. On the other hand, most of those "unaffiliated" in the survey believe in some form of God, they just don't like organized religion, or no longer feel that they need to be a member of a religion.

wishful thinking and spin the stats don't lie, Europe is moving towards atheism some countries are already over 80% atheist, even formerly strongly catholic france is believed to be at 50% if not more...

Some pop atheist writers like Dawkins for example, have made a big production about the decline in organized religion in Western Europe and concluded that it also means a growth in atheism or agnosticism. The real story is that people living comfortably in nations like Sweden or Denmark, which have a high level of government-provided services, do not have much need for a church. But in third world countries, or in nations on their way to third world status, like the U.S.A., organized religion is growing, out of necessity. Whether the churches grow or decline in Canada will depend more on economics and what level of government services we choose to fund, rather than our metaphysical beliefs.

the only government service that matters is education, the more educated the population the less religious belief there is...religion is reliant on ignorance, third world countries are the most ignorant of all...

That wishful thinking that Richard Dawkins has about atheism growing and becoming the majority is out of step with research done in psychology and neuroscience, which is drawing towards a general conclusion that we use different levels of intuition and rationalizing to form beliefs. Those who rely more on intuition also score higher on scales of supernatural thinking and belief in the paranormal...and although this does not necessarily mean belief in a divine creator, it is more likely they will continue to believe in God, rather than be an atheist.

your out of step with the cold hard facts...religion is morality and you don't need religion to have morality...

[wyly]

To late - religion has effected and formed all politics thus far..Politics is now a religion - perhaps those who think that religion has no place in politics should re-phrase the statement and say - morality and goodness have no place in politics---oooops - we already have that - praise the lord and pass the bribe.

pedophile priests and religious wars, religious persecution...morality and goodness don't equal religion...

[Oleg Bach]

pedophile priests and religious wars, religious persecution...morality and goodness don't equal religion...

Secularist pedopilia, war and state sponsored persecution of the non-compliant is just as real..oh - politics with out God does not equal morality or goodness either - either way we lose.

[WIP]

wishful thinking and spin the stats don't lie, Europe is moving towards atheism some countries are already over 80% atheist, even formerly strongly catholic france is believed to be at 50% if not more...

Take a look at the Wikipedia entry devoted to atheist demographics, and tell me why the polls cited are so wildly divergent? Sweden for example, has 23% atheists in the 2005 Eurobarometer poll, while several other polls cited in one of the linked sources claim that anywhere between 46% and 85% of Swedes do not believe in God! The gap in numbers would indicate that the poll subjects have wildly different ideas of what they're being asked by the pollsters, and there is no way to have much confidence in any interpretations of the results, beyond saying that Western Europe is more agnostic than North America, or Asia, or Africa etc.

Another point that needs to be mentioned is that a decline in belief in God, does not mean a decline in supernatural thinking. There is no evidence for a decline in what are referred to as 'secular supernatural' ideas like ESP, astrology, life forces, ghosts, UFO's etc..

the only government service that matters is education, the more educated the population the less religious belief there is...religion is reliant on ignorance, third world countries are the most ignorant of all...

Third world countries are filled with people who are struggling for survival, and don't have the time or the energy to ponder over the likelihood of whether their intuitions about a creator watching down on them are correct. And for people who live bleak lives in abject poverty, what comfort will they derive from not having a hereafter to look forward to?

And once again, religion includes a lot more than belief in God, and there are religions where belief in God isn't even necessary. Many people belong to a religion to find higher purpose in life and focus on things beyond their own narrow self interests. There aren't any atheist or humanist organizations in a position to fill that role. That might indicate that a world without religion might end up being worse off.

your out of step with the cold hard facts...religion is morality and you don't need religion to have morality...

I didn't say anything about morality. I was talking about studies done on how people make sense of the world. As brief as possible -- there are two ways of making judgments. You've got one that is very rapid, unconscious, and untutored—the intuitive system. And the second rational experiential system, the one which is analytical, is much slower and laborious -- and has to be learned. The intuitive system is always running in the background, even in rational skeptics, so it has to be suppressed to go with the deliberative, reasoned answer.

Now, the problem here is that the atheist evangelists like Dawkins, Hitchens or Harris, think that the world can be converted into a bunch of atheist skeptics who are free from supernatural beliefs. The problem is that people have varying degrees of reliance on intuition or rational reasoning. Those who give more credence to their intuitive understandings of the world are going to be far less likely to be atheists, and even if they were, they would be carrying around a lot of other supernatural baggage. Religions don't create the basic foundations of supernatural thinking, they just harness it to form their own narratives about the world. Where will these people go if there are no religions? Wherever it is, it is not likely going to be towards the atheist, humanist, or skeptic organizations.

[wyly]

Take a look at the Wikipedia entry devoted to atheist demographics, and tell me why the polls cited are so wildly divergent?

many estimates were done were based on church baptismal or marriage records and this common in Sweden and Norway, babies weren't personally asked their beliefs, and many practises such as baptisisms and marriages are still done out of tradition not belief(it makes the grandparents happy)...I was baptised but I'm an atheist, four of my brothers and sisters were all married in churches all are atheists so a poll based on religious records would be misleading...

[lictor616]

No good can come from mixing the two. A politician's religion should be as irrellevant as his or her sexual orientation. Neither personalcharacteristic should have any effect on their performance. At least, if we expect that it will be true in the end. Once people start voting based on these irrellevant characteristics they will become relevant and we will live in a theocracy. NO! NO!

We should remove public support for religious schools and remove any reference to god in any of our laws, including the constitution. Churches should be taxed like any other business.

I agree, but we should also note that politics today have devolved into a religion, that of political correctness... "Liberalism" is akin to a religion, like the Christianity from which it sprang, it is based on the same social superstitions, yet devoid of a supernatural deity. "All men are created equal", "blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth" these are all analogous to our current political ideology, and i'm afraid they are based just as much in the superstitious.

I agree though, Churches (and Mosques and Temples and any other salvation shop wink, wink) should be taxed like any other businesses. I'd also love to see the abolition of kirpan daggers, burkas and other grotesque aspects from the more barbarous religions.

But that will not come out of our current circumstances, in this age of mass immigration, mass democracy and weak minded liberalism with suicidal political correctness. Our people have simply become too indolent and irrational to act in their own self interest.

[williat]

Third world countries are filled with people who are struggling for survival, and don't have the time or the energy to ponder over the likelihood of whether their intuitions about a creator watching down on them are correct. And for people who live bleak lives in abject poverty, what comfort will they derive from not having a hereafter to look forward to?

Yes, but this point can also be argued just as well from the other side. Would they not have all the more reason to look to or believe in a creator watching down on them? I think in some instances it would. I also must agree that I feel that religion is essentially a form of brainwashing and the best way to counteract it would be through education (mentioned by someone earlier). I don't believe that politics and religion can be branched together, mainly due to the drastic differences in religious beliefs throughout the world. Religion is another means to divide, I don't consider myself a non-believer, all I'm saying is I don't know what I believe. Theres probably a strong case that can be made for all religions in some aspect, but the fact remains that all religions have conspiracy theories about being the greatest lies every told. Taking religion out of the equation would no doubt play a huge factor in world peace, IMO.

[lukin]

the only government service that matters is education, the more educated the population the less religious belief there is...religion is reliant on ignorance, third world countries are the most ignorant of all...

How about Francis Collins? he's a former atheist. Now he's a Christian. He's VERY well educated. Is he ignorant? Is he stupid? Is he superstitious?

[Guest TrueMetis]

How about Francis Collins? he's a former atheist. Now he's a Christian. He's VERY well educated. Is he ignorant? Is he stupid? Is he superstitious?

First off he is just one person. If you look at it with actually statistically significant amounts of people there is a correlation between education and religous beliefs. Second he does use the god of the gaps argument which is perhaps one of the stupidest arguments out there.

[lukin]

The separation of church and state has occurred in many countries throughout history.

Joseph Stalin separated church from state.

Adolf Hitler separated church from state.

Chairman Mao separated church from state.

[lukin]

First off he is just one person. If you look at it with actually statistically significant amounts of people there is a correlation between education and religous beliefs. Second he does use the god of the gaps argument which is perhaps one of the stupidest arguments out there.

Show me how you can make something out of nothing and I'll be a keen observer.

[bloodyminded]

Show me how you can make something out of nothing and I'll be a keen observer.

Show me how gaps in our knowledge proves the existence of God, and I'll be Born Again.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Show me how you can make something out of nothing and I'll be a keen observer.

Depends on you definition of nothing I guess. Study some physics though once you start getting into the really high level stuff you learn that particles are constantly popping in and out of exsistance.

[lukin]

Depends on you definition of nothing I guess. Study some physics though once you start getting into the really high level stuff you learn that particles are constantly popping in and out of exsistance.

Particles popping in and out of existence. That explains everything. Thanks.