Manitoba Wait Times Rising for Heart Surgery

[Michael Hardner]

My experience has been that if your personal situation is urgent, there is no wait time. Of course, every urgent case then bumps back less urgent cases.

And yes, even cardiac cases have degrees of urgency and every medical specialist can tell you some are timewasters, GPs practising defensive medicine though never to the extent they do in the US.

What is your experience ? Were you the patient or on the service side ?

[bush_cheney2004]

Hmmmm...there is more here than meets the eye for the entire period in question...not the lame excuses for one hospital offered up by smallc.

Manitoba Health used to make it very easy to click on a "information on wait times" icon on its home page, providing the public with easy access to wait times for diagnostic tests such as elective ultrasounds, CT scans and MRIs, broken down by individual hospitals.

In fact, they used to feature it right on the main government home page.

Ballooned

No more. Now you have to navigate through a search function or an index to find the data, which are no longer displayed as a link anywhere on Manitoba Health's main page.

When you eventually find the information you'll see why.

Wait times for MRIs have ballooned as high as 21 weeks at the Pan Am Clinic. At Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface General Hospital, the wait time is 19 weeks.

Brandon Regional Health Centre has the lowest wait time for MRIs at 10 weeks. But people in the Boundary Trails region in central Manitoba also have to wait 19 weeks for an elective MRI.

All told, the Manitoba average is 19 weeks, close to four times what it was in 2007.

Average wait times for MRIs were about five weeks in 2007, down from 15 weeks in 2002.

But they have since soared. The average wait time is now higher than it was in 2002, despite the billions of tax dollars we now pour into the province's health-care system.

http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/columnists/tom_brodbeck/2009/08/14/10458756-sun.html

[Guest American Woman]

What I find amusing about this thread is that Canadians are upset that an American would claim to know what's going on in Canada based on what he read in the media, while at least one of those Canadians claims to know all about what's going on in America ........ based on the media.

[bush_cheney2004]

What I find amusing about this thread is that Canadians are upset that an American would claim to know what's going on in Canada based on what he read in the media, while at least one of those Canadians claims to know all about what's going on in America ........ based on the media.

Tee hee hee....good catch! This place is more fun than a bathtub full of otters!

[fellowtraveller]

What is your experience ? Were you the patient or on the service side ?

Neither and both.

My BIL is a specialist, gastroenterologist. His scheduled patients get bumped often by emergencies, sometimes for hours, sometimes for months. But the bane of his existnece is pointless referrals from GPs who won't tell a fussy, hypocondriac patient there is nothing wrong with them, or that farting is normal. It is easier to dump them on a specialist, in the theory that they will believe what the specialist says, which does not happen either. It is not even defensive medicine, which is very popular in the uber-litigious USA.

On the personal side, I have seen several family members with serious issues move immeditaely into care, which means somebody less ill gets bumped. And have seen the opposite too. So it goes.

[Smallc]

Dunno about Manitoba, but here 'average wait times' can be very misleading. My experience has been that if your personal situation is urgent, there is no wait time.

It's the same here. For cardiac surgery, emergencies are handled within minutes, and urgent and emergent cases within the day to 2 day range. MRI is still too long though....even though if there were an emergency I could get one now....or rather, within the 3 hours that it would take to get to the nearest one.

[Smallc]

I appreciate the fact that an American takes the time to criticize our system because we ourselves don't do it enough.

I disagree. Canadians criticize everything all the time. In this case, there just isn't a story here.

[Michael Hardner]

Neither and both.

My BIL is a specialist, gastroenterologist. His scheduled patients get bumped often by emergencies, sometimes for hours, sometimes for months. But the bane of his existnece is pointless referrals from GPs who won't tell a fussy, hypocondriac patient there is nothing wrong with them, or that farting is normal. It is easier to dump them on a specialist, in the theory that they will believe what the specialist says, which does not happen either. It is not even defensive medicine, which is very popular in the uber-litigious USA.

On the personal side, I have seen several family members with serious issues move immeditaely into care, which means somebody less ill gets bumped. And have seen the opposite too. So it goes.

I don't know what a BIL is.

Doctors are good at medicine and bad at seeing the big picture on how the basic gears of operations work: queues, and so on. Your friend sounds like he may have a good perspective on things.

Most Canadians seem satisfied with things, but there isn't an overall sense of how the system is doing. There are no consistent and independent metrics for us to read and follow in a simple format, and I submit that such a thing would make sure that things run better.

[Michael Hardner]

It's the same here. For cardiac surgery, emergencies are handled within minutes, and urgent and emergent cases within the day to 2 day range. MRI is still too long though....even though if there were an emergency I could get one now....or rather, within the 3 hours that it would take to get to the nearest one.

Where did you get that ?

[Smallc]

Where did you get that ?

I haven't had it happen to me. I've watched it happen to other people in my community within the last month. I've also watched one person suffer with Cancer for too long (he's still alive) because he had a very unique situation that wasn't responded to quickly enough after initial attempts failed. I've seen much more good though, than bad.

[Michael Hardner]

I disagree. Canadians criticize everything all the time. In this case, there just isn't a story here.

Canadians don't criticize how large institutions like this are run, nor do they hold government to account for big screw-ups in running these things ?

Need proof ?

eHeath ? The gun registry ?

How about McGuinty's promise to reduce wait times - which he made when he was running against Ernie Eves ? Hmmmmmm. Status Quo keeps the Toronto Star and the masses happy, as far as I can tell.

No one even complained when McGuinty announced that they weren't going to investigate eHealth. Far from it - it wasn't even widely reported. That was $1B wasted. And the BIG scandal hit because somebody submitted an expense request for tea.

I'm quite aggravated by people's faith in the system when it is run virtually without public interest.

[Smallc]

Canadians don't criticize how large institutions like this are run, nor do they hold government to account for big screw-ups in running these things ?

Need proof ?

eHeath ? The gun registry ?

Those are criticized all of the time...the gun registry to this day. People (myself included) write complaint letters all the time.

How about McGuinty's promise to reduce wait times - which he made when he was running against Ernie Eves ? Hmmmmmm. Status Quo keeps the Toronto Star and the masses happy, as far as I can tell.

Well, I don't agree at all. Stories on failed wait time strategies appear in papers. Successes often don't. McGuinty has reduced wait times though...just not to where they should be.

I'm quite aggravated by people's faith in the system when it is run virtually without public interest.

I'm not sure where you get this idea that everyone has faith that everything will work smoothly. We criticize in Canada all of the time...too much in fact. Sometimes criticize is worthwhile and fixes things. Sometimes it isn't and doesn't. By the sounds of it, I heard about eHealth in the media more than you did. I find that strange. My only guess is that you really aren't paying all that much attention.

[GostHacked]

If that were true, it certainly worked. I was able to snag at least two of you big brave "ignore BC" warriors.

Trollin trollin trollin ........

[Michael Hardner]

I haven't had it happen to me. I've watched it happen to other people in my community within the last month. I've also watched one person suffer with Cancer for too long (he's still alive) because he had a very unique situation that wasn't responded to quickly enough after initial attempts failed. I've seen much more good though, than bad.

Are you just basing this on people you know - or are you an insider ? It's just... the service levels you specify in your post seem pretty specific.

[Michael Hardner]

Those are criticized all of the time...the gun registry to this day. People (myself included) write complaint letters all the time.

Criticized all the time ? Maybe somewhere but not in the media.

Here's a Google news search for 'eHealth':

http://www.google.ca/search?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=ehealth&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=nws:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wn

The word 'Ontario' doesn't appear in that article. George Smitherman is cruising through a mayoral campaign though he was the Deputy Premier and minister of Health until 2008. Look for 'eheath Ontario' in Google news and you get 1 National Post article about McGuinty surviving the political storm and a lot of announcements of bland news stories.

We don't even talk about the eHealth debacle on these boards enough.

Well, I don't agree at all. Stories on failed wait time strategies appear in papers. Successes often don't. McGuinty has reduced wait times though...just not to where they should be.

Successes don't appear, nor do failures really. You'll get the odd news item - but ask anybody where they would go to find out performance statistics on health services and you'll get a blank stare. People don't follow it.

And Ontario's success is highly suspect IMO. For one thing, it wasn't significant, and for another the improvement is self-reported, as in "How'd you do Dalton ?" "Great !" The reporting systems tend to be asterisked to the nth degree, which to me indicates they've dropped out damaging data.

We need independent, widely followed and easy-to-understand metrics that are frequently kept.

I'm not sure where you get this idea that everyone has faith that everything will work smoothly. We criticize in Canada all of the time...too much in fact. Sometimes criticize is worthwhile and fixes things. Sometimes it isn't and doesn't. By the sounds of it, I heard about eHealth in the media more than you did. I find that strange. My only guess is that you really aren't paying all that much attention.

We don't criticize health services and monolithic things enough. Rogers and Bell Canada at least have each other to compete against but often have no recourse when the system fails.

I heard about eHealth when it happened, yes, especially the part about expensing the tea and muffin. Since then, nothing. And before then very little - despite the fact that they were years late and over budget.

[bush_cheney2004]

Trollin trollin trollin ........

....Keep movin', movin', movin',

Though they're disapprovin',

Keep them doggies movin' Rawhide!

Don't try to understand 'em,

Just rope and throw and grab 'em,

Soon we'll be living high and wide.

Boy my heart's calculatin'

My true love will be waitin', be waiting at the end of my ride.

Move 'em on, head 'em up,

Head 'em up, move 'em out,

Move 'em on, head 'em out Rawhide!

Set 'em out, ride 'em in

Ride 'em in, let 'em out,

Cut 'em out, ride 'em in Rawhide.

[bush_cheney2004]

We don't criticize health services and monolithic things enough. Rogers and Bell Canada at least have each other to compete against but often have no recourse when the system fails.

Agreed....lack of competition will do that. The real political story for wait times in not just Manitoba, but in every province, has been the flurry to report wait time metrics in a very public way (i.e. web site) while revealing as little actual insight or details as possible.

[Smallc]

Are you just basing this on people you know - or are you an insider ? It's just... the service levels you specify in your post seem pretty specific.

Some are from articles and releases, some from personal experience, some from correspondence with Manitoba Health.

[GostHacked]

....Keep movin', movin', movin',

Well, I'd BC up this thread, but ....

[Michael Hardner]

Some are from articles and releases, some from personal experience, some from correspondence with Manitoba Health.

That's right. So there's no way to get consistent and quality-controlled performance information that is easily accessible and understandable.

If I want to find out how the Kansas City Royals are doing, on the other hand, no problem. There's even a free newspaper within 5 minutes' walk of wherever I am, if I am not web literate.

This is an example of a cultural blockage that prevents us from reaching excellence:

"We don't want to bother anybody"

Meanwhile, the rest of the economy has undergone a transformation over the past 20 years to become more efficient and service oriented. Unless we make our public institutions similarly change, they will crash and privatization will be the only alternative.

[Born Free]

Well, I'd BC up this thread, but ....

Dont be shy...

[Jack Weber]

That's right. So there's no way to get consistent and quality-controlled performance information that is easily accessible and understandable.

If I want to find out how the Kansas City Royals are doing, on the other hand, no problem. There's even a free newspaper within 5 minutes' walk of wherever I am, if I am not web literate.

This is an example of a cultural blockage that prevents us from reaching excellence:

"We don't want to bother anybody"

Meanwhile, the rest of the economy has undergone a transformation over the past 20 years to become more efficient and service oriented. Unless we make our public institutions similarly change, they will crash and privatization will be the only alternative.

The Kansas City Royals?

They're doing badly(as always)...

Last in the AL Central...

[GostHacked]

Dont be shy...

I just don't see the point. I mean this is a thread about Canada. Alberta to be more specific. So I'd go on and on about how health care in the US is crap, but that would make me about as bad as him. And it is nothing more than a troll because he likes to provoke. To him, it's his duty.

So no, this thread is about Canadian health care and we should stick to it. Just because some posters and not genuine in debate does not mean the rest of us need to stoop to that level. The debate can carry on without those people just as well.

Not to mention this thread was BC'd from the start.

[bush_cheney2004]

I just don't see the point. I mean this is a thread about Canada. Alberta to be more specific. So I'd go on and on about how health care in the US is crap, but that would make me about as bad as him. And it is nothing more than a troll because he likes to provoke. To him, it's his duty.

I also provide free geography lessons for wayward DJs....Alberta is not Manitoba....but it is Canada.

So no, this thread is about Canadian health care and we should stick to it. Just because some posters and not genuine in debate does not mean the rest of us need to stoop to that level. The debate can carry on without those people just as well.

Good luck with that...and wait times.

Not to mention this thread was BC'd from the start.

It's my thread and I'm sticking to it.

[Smallc]

That's right. So there's no way to get consistent and quality-controlled performance information that is easily accessible and understandable.

Ummm, yes there is. Reports are released every year giving letter grads to different performances from many different organizations, from CIHI, to the OECD, to the FCPP. Manitoba Health also releases more and more reports. You simply want there to be a problem where there isn't one. It isn't always possible to compile information to everything, nor is it worthwhile when the public probably won't 'get' it anyway. When talking about emergency care, as I was, examples and reports are an excellent way to get information.

On reports though....soon, our systems will spend so much on reports, they won't be able to pay for much else. I'm really not sure what you're asking for.