Why the hate for harper?

[wyly]

Well said!!!

It does seem that some of the Wild Rose Whiners don't seem to like it when an "Eastern Bastard",such as myself,start to call them on their crybaby act.I wish more of us would.

there's a segment of the conservative base in Alberta that really are stuck in the "Twilight Zone"...easterners are part of plot which schemes to steal all their money...just like the 911 conspiracy nuts, alien abductions nuts...I recall being taught these eastern conspiracy plots when I was a kid in school and I believed them because the teacher said they were true...eventually some of us do grow up and are able to seperate myth from reality...

[Alta4ever]

Well I never knew you would be so kind to do me a favor Jack, after the night I had last night come and string me up I won't put up a fight. Nice and quick would be preferable.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Alta4ever

[Dave_ON]

So why is Sask so far behind? They have more and variety of resource Alberta doesn't that arguement doesn't fly.

Sask. does not currently have the manpower that Alberta does. They have the resources but lack the manpower/tax revenues to fully exploit it at this time. They're in much the same state that Alberta was when they were living off the good graces of Ontario, whom they now so deeply resent. Sask will get there, and they'll start pulling manpower from the rest of the country, even as Alberta still does today, to do it.

If we're being frank, Alberta can't hold a fiscal candle to Sask. Alberta relies on its oil to bail it out when it's in trouble; Sask hasn't had that luxury and yet manages to balance its budget.

I suppose what I don't understand why Alberta so desperately wants the ROC to fail. They hate Quebec because they're leeches; they hate the Atlantic because they're insignificant and lazy. They hate Ontario because they "screwed" them over and they resent Ontario's continued success in spite of the severe downturn in the manufacturing sector. They also covet the vast political power that Ontario wields and feel it should be theirs simply because they have oil. They don't particularly like Manitoba either, just another have not leech. Sask, is about the only province they don't bitch about, but they don't really want their energy programs to succeed, nor do they perceive that in 30 or so years they will likely exceed Alberta. Light sweet crude is a heck of a lot easier to manage and extract then the tar sands. BC, well that one I'm not sure of but they're not from Alberta so clearly there's something wrong with them. Fact is no one seems good enough for Alberta, they're the best and everyone picks on them and is after their manifold riches. Christ, it's likely the most narcissistic region in all of Canada.

[Jack Weber]

Sask. does not currently have the manpower that Alberta does. They have the resources but lack the manpower/tax revenues to fully exploit it at this time. They're in much the same state that Alberta was when they were living off the good graces of Ontario, whom they now so deeply resent. Sask will get there, and they'll start pulling manpower from the rest of the country, even as Alberta still does today, to do it.

If we're being frank, Alberta can't hold a fiscal candle to Sask. Alberta relies on its oil to bail it out when it's in trouble; Sask hasn't had that luxury and yet manages to balance its budget.

I suppose what I don't understand why Alberta so desperately wants the ROC to fail. They hate Quebec because they're leeches; they hate the Atlantic because they're insignificant and lazy. They hate Ontario because they "screwed" them over and they resent Ontario's continued success in spite of the severe downturn in the manufacturing sector. They also covet the vast political power that Ontario wields and feel it should be theirs simply because they have oil. They don't particularly like Manitoba either, just another have not leech. Sask, is about the only province they don't bitch about, but they don't really want their energy programs to succeed, nor do they perceive that in 30 or so years they will likely exceed Alberta. Light sweet crude is a heck of a lot easier to manage and extract then the tar sands. BC, well that one I'm not sure of but they're not from Alberta so clearly there's something wrong with them. Fact is no one seems good enough for Alberta, they're the best and everyone picks on them and is after their manifold riches. Christ, it's likely the most narcissistic region in all of Canada.

Right on!!!!

[Jack Weber]

Well I never knew you would be so kind to do me a favor Jack, after the night I had last night come and string me up I won't put up a fight. Nice and quick would be preferable.

At least your provincial cohort,Hydraboss,admits he's a sell out and a traitor...

You just keep dancing around the edges...

I forgot...You're "warning" us...

[Alta4ever]

At least your provincial cohort,Hydraboss,admits he's a sell out and a traitor...

You just keep dancing around the edges...

I forgot...You're "warning" us...

No Jack I am serious after the night I had last night come and string me up and make nice and quick.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Alta4ever

[Hydraboss]

Why do you insist upon feminizing, or insinuating some feminization of your opponents? And why is the feminine an insult?

Are you daft? Feminizing? Are you refering to the "knitting" reference? Ever heard of "mind your knitting"?

[Guest TrueMetis]

Jack, you and others in this thread keep dodging around an essential point. Western alienation is real! You can disparage it and threaten to hang it all you want but it is there and it will not go away.

As a westerner I have no idea what the hell your talking about.

[Smallc]

As a westerner I have no idea what the hell your talking about.

Neither do I. Western alienation is a choice of some westerners. Nothing more, nothing less.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Smallc

[Molly]

Sask. does not currently have the manpower that Alberta does. They have the resources but lack the manpower/tax revenues to fully exploit it at this time.

That couldn't possibly be because Saskatchewan's two most consistent exports for the last 50 years have been 'people' and 'opportunity'.

Alberta has Saskatchewan's workforce.

Edited June 2, 2010 by Molly

[wyly]

Neither do I. Western alienation is a choice of some westerners. Nothing more, nothing less.

yup...better part of my life in Sask, another chunk in Calgary and I feel no animosity towards the east...it's all in their head, paranoia...

[jbg]

yup...better part of my life in Sask, another chunk in Calgary and I feel no animosity towards the east...it's all in their head, paranoia...

Is the seal-clubbing better in Alberta or Saskatchewan?

[wyly]

Sask. does not currently have the manpower that Alberta does. They have the resources but lack the manpower/tax revenues to fully exploit it at this time. They're in much the same state that Alberta was when they were living off the good graces of Ontario, whom they now so deeply resent. Sask will get there, and they'll start pulling manpower from the rest of the country, even as Alberta still does today, to do it.

the problem in sask was always low market value for commodities, even the oil was more expensive to get out of the ground in Sask vs AB only rising oil prices made it cost effective just as we see with the tar sands, if the price of oil drops the tar sands are no longer a cost effective and production will drop...

If we're being frank, Alberta can't hold a fiscal candle to Sask. Alberta relies on its oil to bail it out when it's in trouble; Sask hasn't had that luxury and yet manages to balance its budget.

correct when you're on a budget decade after decade you learn to spend responsibly...I'm too young to remember the Ross Thatcher Liberal government but the Devine Conservative was hell, they nearly bankrupt the province, I can't recall another government in Canada ever that had as many incompetent crooks as that regime...

[wyly]

Is the seal-clubbing better in Alberta or Saskatchewan?

it's a toss up since you can't find any seals in either province I'd say we're both quite good...I do recall baby fox clubbing in Sask, pointless...and Alberta's rat extermination, not so pointless...

[Jack Weber]

Is the seal-clubbing better in Alberta or Saskatchewan?

Did'nt Rick Mercer ask Americans to sign a petition to stop that?

[jbg]

it's a toss up since you can't find any seals in either province I'd say we're both quite good...I do recall baby fox clubbing in Sask, pointless...and Alberta's rat extermination, not so pointless...

Exterminated by hunters?

Didn't Rick Mercer ask Americans to sign a petition to stop that?

Yes. And I proudly supported those efforts.

[wyly]

Exterminated by hunters?

rats, yes...hard to believe but there are no rats in Alberta...

[Jack Weber]

rats, yes...hard to believe but there are no rats in Alberta...

Hold it!

Some of our Albertan "patriots" will be along presently to show us how offended they are at your rat insinuations!!!!

Edited June 2, 2010 by Jack Weber

[DrGreenthumb]

rats, yes...hard to believe but there are no rats in Alberta...

Then what do they call the people who call the snitch lines out there?

[Dave_ON]

That couldn't possibly be because Saskatchewan's two most consistent exports for the last 50 years have been 'people' and 'opportunity'.

Alberta has Saskatchewan's workforce.

Fair enough, I can't speak directly to this as I've only visited Saskatchewan never have I lived there. However, it is my experience that Alberta looks down its nose at the RoC; this includes SK, BC and MB to a lesser degree. They invoke the term "westerner" when it suits them and only when speaking to or of the East. We get it they're self sufficient and they don't need the RoC now that they're established. However, they seem to have forgotten that if it were not for the RoC they wouldn't be as well off as they are today. It was money and man power funnelled from the East that allowed them to establish themselves. They had raw resources but no means to exploit them, these means did not spring up out of the ground they came from the RoC.

It's sad because I see history repeating itself. I'm a Maritimer, born and raised. There's a rich history of accomplishment in the Maritimes, sadly that's all there really is left there, history. New Brunswick was once rich in coal, lumber and was an ideal location for ship building due to the fact that the Bay of Fundy never freezes. Sadly all these industries disappeared, shipbuilding has gone down, coal isn’t in nearly as high a demand and is mostly depleted, and lumber employs fewer and fewer each year as harvesting/processing technology improves. There have been many factors, both economic and political that has led to the state in which NB and the other Maritime Provinces are currently in.

This is a cautionary tale for Alberta, you may be wealthy now, but the well will run dry or the world may change in such a way that no one wants to buy what you have for sale. Then you too will be a have not province, and I somehow suspect that the RoC will not soon forget the disdain with which we were met.

[Keepitsimple]

Fair enough, I can't speak directly to this as I've only visited Saskatchewan never have I lived there. However, it is my experience that Alberta looks down its nose at the RoC; this includes SK, BC and MB to a lesser degree. They invoke the term "westerner" when it suits them and only when speaking to or of the East. We get it they're self sufficient and they don't need the RoC now that they're established. However, they seem to have forgotten that if it were not for the RoC they wouldn't be as well off as they are today. It was money and man power funnelled from the East that allowed them to establish themselves. They had raw resources but no means to exploit them, these means did not spring up out of the ground they came from the RoC.

You would do well to understand the real impact of the NEP (National Energy Program) that ran from 1980-1985. Looking at some of the details would give you some insight as to why the West hated Trudeau even more than Harper is disliked today. Granted - this was 25 years ago - but the impact was so disastrous that it will live on for at least another generation. Trudeau - the creator of the Federal Deficit - continued to run operating deficits on the backs of Albertans. Following Trudeau, the Liberals had Chretien who took advantage of a divided right to completely ignore the West while gaining majorities via complete dominance in Ontario and Quebec. The West does not sneer at the East - they simply abhor any centralized federal government that refuses to respect Provincial areas of juristiction....oh yes, and they hate Liberals.

The National Energy Program (NEP) was introduced on 28 October 1980 as part of the first Liberal budget after the 1980 election. Coming in the wake of the 160% increase in world oil prices in 1979-80 and the prolonged stalemate between the federal government and Alberta over energy pricing and revenue-sharing, the NEP was a unilateral attempt by the federal government to achieve 3 objectives: energy security, by which was meant oil self-sufficiency; a redistribution of wealth towards the federal government and consumers; and a greater Canadian ownership of the oil industry. To reach these objectives, the government adopted a wide-ranging set of measures. Among these measures were grants to encourage oil drilling in remote areas; grants to consumers to convert to gas or electric heating; new taxes on the oil industry; an expanded role for the Crown Corporation PETRO-CANADA; and a 25% government share of all oil and gas discoveries offshore and in the North. These measures were all promised on the expectation that the world oil price would continue to rise indefinitely. When it did not (the price started to fall in 1982), any justification for these interventionist policies evaporated and the NEP itself was shown to have been ill conceived.

The NEP, one of the most sweeping government policies ever undertaken in Canada, was dismantled by the Progressive Conservatives after their 1984 election victory. Although the NEP did reduce Canadian dependence on oil and foreign ownership of the oil industry, its chief legacy was one of distrust of the federal government by the western provinces.

Link: http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0005618

Reaction in Western Canada

The program was extremely unpopular in Western Canada, especially in Alberta where most of Canada's oil is produced. With natural resources falling constitutionally within the domain of provincial jurisdictions, many Albertans viewed the NEP as a detrimental intrusion by the federal government into the province's affairs.[18] In Western Canada – and Alberta especially – the NEP was perceived to be at their expense in benefiting the eastern provinces.[19]

Particularly vilified was Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau, whose Liberals didn't hold a seat west of Manitoba. Ed Clark, a senior bureaucrat in the Trudeau Liberal government, helped develop the National Energy Program earning himself the moniker 'Red Ed' in the Alberta oil industry. Shorty after Brian Mulroney took office, Clark was fired.[20]

Petro-Canada, the government-established oil company headquartered in Calgary, was made responsible for implementing much of the Program. Petro-Canada was backronymed to "Pierre Elliott Trudeau Rips Off Canada" by opponents of the National Energy Program, and the Petro-Canada Centre in Calgary became known as "Red Square." The Petro-Canada Centre in Calgary is still referred to by some Calgarians as "The finger of Pierre". The popular western slogan during the NEP – appearing on many bumper stickers – was "Let the Eastern bastards freeze in the dark".[21]

Premier of Alberta Peter Lougheed went on national television to announce that oil shipments to the rest of Canada would be halted, forcing the federal government to import more expensive crude. Lougheed also stopped development on several oil sands projects.[22] After negotiations between Trudeau and Lougheed, the NEP was revised so that the price of so called "new" Canadian oil (discovered after December 31, 1980) would eventually rise to the world price but existing "old" oil would still be capped at 75% of the world price.[23]

[edit] Impact in Western Canada

The key areas of GDP, per capita federal contributions (since this was a federal program), housing prices and bankruptcy rates during the years of the NEP (1980-1985) are examined in this section. For housing prices and bankruptcy rates, the experience of Alberta in particular is contrasted to the other regions of the country in an attempt to see whether the problems experienced due to the global recession were worse in Alberta perhaps due to the NEP.

Long-term oil prices, 1861-2007 (top line adjusted for inflation).[edit] Alberta GDP

It is estimated by various scholars that Alberta lost between $50 billion and $100 billion because of the NEP.[24] Alberta GDP was between $60 billion and $80 billion annually through the years of the NEP, 1980 to 1986. While it is unclear whether the estimates took into account the decline in world crude oil prices that began only a few months after the NEP came into force, the graph of long-term oil prices show that prices adjusted for inflation did not drop below pre-1980s levels until 1985. Given that the program was cancelled in 1986, the NEP was active for five years which are amongst the most expensive for oil prices on record and the NEP prevented Alberta's economy from fully realising those prices.[25]

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Energy_Program

[Dave_ON]

You would do well to understand the real impact of the NEP (National Energy Program) that ran from 1980-1985. Looking at some of the details would give you some insight as to why the West hated Trudeau even more than Harper is disliked today. Granted - this was 25 years ago - but the impact was so disastrous that it will live on for at least another generation. Trudeau - the creator of the Federal Deficit - continued to run operating deficits on the backs of Albertans. Following Trudeau, the Liberals had Chretien who took advantage of a divided right to completely ignore the West while gaining majorities via complete dominance in Ontario and Quebec. The West does not sneer at the East - they simply abhor any centralized federal government that refuses to respect Provincial areas of juristiction....oh yes, and they hate Liberals.

I'm aware of the impact of the NEP but Albertan hatred of the East runs deeper than that. I think the NEP was simply the straw the broke the camel’s back. Don't you think this anti-Trudeau obsession is somewhat unhealthy? They'll vote for anyone that isn't a Liberal, no matter how dubious he might be, that's simply illogical. I understand those who are old enough to remember the NEP would have some residual resentment, but why are the Albertans my age and younger carrying the grudge? It seems to be rather deeply ingrained, and makes no sense. It would be like holding a grudge against Germany for WW2 and WW1.

Where precisely would Alberta be today if not for Ontario? I'll tell you where, non-existent. It was generous transfer payments from Ontario's booming economy that allowed Alberta to get up and running. Now last year being the very first year in the entire history of the Country Ontario hits have not status Alberta begrudges us every single dime. Ontario has paid into transfer payments for longer than Alberta to more provinces and we don't bitch about it like they do.

You're right the West doesn't sneer at the East, just Alberta; they have no love of Ontario, and certainly not Quebec. They also have no respect and open disdain for the Maritimes as well as NFL, as they're just sucking money from Alberta. I've heard it said on many occasions, and even a few times on these boards, that Maritimers and NFL are lazy, EI sucking leeches; Even though this couldn't be further from the truth.

[Dave_ON]

I'm confused. Now the thread has careened from bizarre patterns of parenting to Quebec's mammoth contributions to Canada and now to Albertan redneckedness and banjo-picking? Quite a journel. And expect updates from Page 29 to the last post as of now of this thread's wild and crazy meander.

Only an outsider would see these side bars as off topic. They're indirectly related to Mr. Harper as he represents a great many of the issues facing our country. He was a member and still is of a party that largely represents western interests, is not particularly gay friendly. A great deal of what occurs in the country is blamed/credited to the sitting PM. It is how a PM handles himself with these issues, whether it be social, economic, or cultural, these define a PM and the countries general feel towards him. I don't think at the end of the day Mr. Harper will be looked upon favorably by anyone. The West feels he's not doing enough, the East feels he's pandering to the West. He screwed himself in Quebec. Yes I'd say to anyone who has their ear to the ground it's quite clear how all these posts point back to the rather broad topic of "Why the hate for Harper". Ask an open ended question you're bound to get a wide variety of responses.

[Molly]

You are right that the NEP was 'the straw'. The west- the prairies- had a long long history of , well, any time it looked like we had something good going, a regulation change would snatch away the benefit and grant it to Ontario/PQ. By the time that one hit, folks were already objecting, but still not being heard.

It hurt large, and for paying the nations bills alone for a few years, those two oil-producing provinces were spit at instead of thanked.

So a few people shoot off their mouths inappropriately and in anger... it doesn't invalidate the grievance. If some are hypersensitive, IMO it's a 'fool me once' situation. Small-c says there will never be an NEP II. I agree... because the consequences of such an attempt would be very grave, and a whole lot of people know it.

(Newfoundland knows something of the same brand of broken word and exploitation.)

[Dave_ON]

(Newfoundland knows something of the same brand of broken word and exploitation.)

Indeed they do, it's just odd that it came from the poster boy of the West. One would think that he would be reluctant to repeat the same federal mistakes, based on when happened in the west. The Atlantic, gets screwed over by the feds as much as Alberta and the west does, they're just not big enough to be heard, let alone listened to. A decison was made to move major ship building operations to the St. Lawrence in favour of expanding it on the Bay of Fundy. The St. Lawrence requires ice breakers to keep it free and clear of ice year round. The Bay of Fundy doesn't, but to placate Quebec, it was moved there in spite of the fact that it could have been done much cheaper and more effieciently in Saint John NB.