The Future of Zionism

[JB Globe]

Your post is almost entirely off-topic, considering not once did you address the future of Zionism, or reference the article in my original post. I'll respond to some of your questions, but in the future please try and mention the topic at hand at least once . . .

Now that is interesting. I am also curious. Did you spend any time reading about the system of dhimmitude in Muslim sharia nations? If not, why not? If you did, did you come to the same conclusions as you did with Israel?

I've read a great deal about how religious minorities are treated in post-colonial nations, Muslim nations included. My conclusion about the founding of the state of Israel was that it was a colonial enterprise, because it used classic colonial justifications for the seizure and settlement of indigenous land and involved a mass migration of foreigners to run the new government, which was once based primarily on a religious identity not shared by most of the indigenous population.

I don't have the same view of the founding of various Muslim states in the world because for the most part they were created artificially by the colonial powers who dominated them at the time.

I am also curious. Did you read up on the laws in Christian nations and how they treated jews and did you find any similiarities there with South Africa?

I have read quite a bit about Jewish life in Christian Europe, but to compare it to the experience of black South Africans would be inaccurate. Racism was obviously a primary factor - but the circumstances were much different (Jews were a migratory minority in Europe, whereas blacks in South Africa were the oppressed indigenous population).

Here is why I have a problem with your criticism. Its selective and that is probably what you get criticized on.

Okay, can you explain?

I will also tell you what I have a problem with-a very real problem. I am a Zionist. I don't like being stereotyped by anyone and lumped into simplistic categories such as the two black and white ones

you presented in the article. To me such categories are arbitrary and simplistic and erroneous.

Which categories?

I like many Zionists am not religious and consider my Jewishness a shared collective identity of which

Judaism the religion is just one of many components.

I like many Zionists in the disaspora am concerned with certain Israeli government policies that I feel are counter-productive to peace talks with Palestinians and may be alienating them.

I like many Zionists who are Jewish am not comfortable with extremist religious Zionists whether they be Jewish or Christian.

I like many Zionists believe in a two state solution and applaud a new shift in Palestinian political mentality which sees more and more Palestinians engaging in peaceful resistance rallies. I believe as that precedent spreads, it stands a good chance of making terrorists and therefore the IDF become

obsolete and will force politicians to meet and have to dialogue.

We're on the same page here.

Unlike you though I do not buy into this Zionism is racism, Zionism is apartheid stereotype.

The thing is, there are different forms of Zionism, and it means different things to different people. Your definition isn't the same as someone who votes Shas in Knesset elections.

The whole point of the article was that if Israel continues to pursue policies which most liberal Jews find repulsive in an effort to get the votes of the increasingly influential hardline/religious segment of the Israeli population, liberal Jews will start to abandon the Zionist political movement, because it will no longer represent their values, and will even go against them in some cases. Then the void will be filled by hardline religious Jews, and Christian Zionists, and the Zionist movement will become radically different.

And for the record, I don't think Zionism is by nature racist, like many ideologies, if you apply it in a certain way to certain situations, it can be used to justify racism.

Zionism is not about defining people by race. It is a non religious, political response to Jews in Europe being refused the same rights as non Jews and being second class citizens in those countries. It was a response to Jews being forced to live in the apartheid system of dhimmitude in Muslim countries. Zionism was a political reaction to being segregated and treated as inferior and being persecuted. It was not based on racist ideology or religious ideology but on a political response by a collective of people called Jews who believed they had a right of universal sufferage.

And of course, I have no problem with any of this, no argument here.

The idea of a Jewish state was to create an institution that would forever guarantee that if one were a Jew never again would there be a holocaust or the forced second class discimination or persecution of Jews again. The state would be a place of refuge for Jews fleeing persecution.

While the desire for a Jewish homeland for Jews post-WWII is totally understandable, it is still difficult for someone like myself who has studied colonialism in-depth to rationalize the founding of Israel, even considering the Holocaust. There simply is no moral justification for foreigners setting up a nation on indigenous land based around their religious/cultural identity - no matter how traumatized they were.

It wasn't created as you infer based on any notion of superiority.

I disagree. When you arrive on someone else's land with the aim of creating a nation for yourself, and you do not include indigenous people in the process in any significant way, than you are essentially saying that your concerns are superior to any other, because they are the only ones that matter enough to be considered. Complete disregard for the human rights of another person is a tacit admission of a superiority complex on your own part.

Ctd below . . .

[Remiel]

Interesting that people feel they can make these kinds of extremely generalized statements about various subgroups of the Jewish people and yet if someone made these kinds of generalizations about a subgroup of Islam (say, the Shia or the Sunni), we'd no doubt hear endless accusations of bigotry and discrimination. Especially interesting is likening a group of Jewish people to a "can of worms"...

I was somewhat confused by what you said here, but I went back and re-read what I had said myself, and I see how that could have come across as " Haredim are worms " , but it is the issues, not the people, that I was referring to with " opening another can of worms " . Just some misspoken common slang. I apologize though for any confusion.

[JB Globe]

This is precisely why Arabic is an official language of Israel and Muslims and Christians who are Israeli citizens have the exact same

legal rights as Jewish Israelis do and the Supreme Court of Israel has upheld those rights and protected

their right to equal treatment. This is precisely why they have their own family and religious courts.

I'll admit Israel treats Muslims better than any other Arab state treats Jews, but it still treats Muslims far worse pretty much any other Western nation, and while I'm glad that the courts acknowledge this, I'm saddened that the Israeli public either ignores this or in some cases justifies it.

Some major issues:

- Over 90% of land in Israel is publicly owned, and can only be leased, however laws forbid non-Jews from leasing public land.

- The government regularly leaves Arab communities in Israel out of national economic and social programs and policies

- Building permits for Arab homes and businesses are denied at a much higher rate than their Jewish counterparts,

This is precisely why Muslims in Israel have the highest standard of living of any Muslims in the Middle East.

Yet, they make up a hugely disproportionate chunk of Israel's poor and unemployed.

If Israel is going to cast itself as a progressive, liberal, Western democracy - than I'm going to hold it to the same standards that I hold other similar nations. And by those standards, Israel's treatment of it's Arab citizens is at the bottom of the barrel for Western nations.

Tell me, in your analysis, did you stop to ask yourself how it is you came to the conclusion you did about South Africa and failed to notice how Muslims and Christians in Israel who are of Israeli citizenship are not segregated and have access to the same government buildings and hospitals?

To be clear - my analysis was strictly referring to the founding of Israel versus the founding of most colonial states - I only mentioned South Africa because I was studying it at the time. It was you who made this leap that I stated that Israel is an apartheid state.

Although I will say that if the status quo continues in the region, Israel will come to look increasingly like an apartheid state based on the fact than in a decade there will be more people subject to Israeli law than there are people who can vote in Israeli elections - I'm thinking of the West Bank here.

[M.Dancer]

I'll admit Israel treats Muslims better than any other Arab state treats Jews, but it still treats Muslims far worse pretty much any other Western nation,......

Israel treat muslims better than most muslim nations...

- Over 90% of land in Israel is publicly owned, and can only be leased, however laws forbid non-Jews from leasing public land.

A little like PEI...try buying more than 5 acres as a non PEIer...

[naomiglover]

A little like PEI...try buying more than 5 acres as a non PEIer...

It's not a little like PEI.

There is a big difference between 5 acres as compared to 0 acres.

There is also the fact that a non-PEI resident can eventually become a PEI resident and buy more than 5 acres.

Edited May 19, 2010 by naomiglover

[M.Dancer]

It's not a little like PEI.

There is a big difference between 5 acres as compared to 0 acres.

There is also the fact that a non-PEI resident can eventually become a PEI resident and buy more than 5 acres.

Good point. Mind you, PEI has never had a suicide bombing at a lunch counter by a non resident.

[Bonam]

Are you saying you have never met a Jew who is opposed to the separation fence, and West Bank settlements? I find that extremely hard to believe. Even middle-of-the-road Jews look down on those things.

Certainly I have met Jews who are critical of certain specific Israeli actions. But they all, every one of em, still supported Israel, its right to exist and to defend itself. And if engaged in a debate about Israeli actions with someone fiercely critical of Israel, they always end up on the defensive, rather than nodding in agreement. Now I haven't by any means met a vast and representative sample, probably just a dozen or so with whom I have heard this topic discussed, but that's been my personal experience.

But besides that, there's definitely a marked decline in support for Israel from decade to decade. One study that I saw tested the same young age group for the past several decades and found Jews with a positive image of Israel has declined by about 8% each decade.

It's bound to decline from the supreme highs it was at at the time of Israel's founding and subsequent rise. Will it continue to fall to very low levels where the vast majority of Jews do not support Israel? I find that doubtful.

I disagree - the declining support is directly related to the occupation of Palestine. It is a policy which forces Israel to commit acts which are repulsive to most Jews. Some Jews can rationalize some of this away by invoking tribal loyalty or by claiming it's self-defense, but this decade we're seeing Israel do things which really can't be justified by anyone who is truly committed to human rights or democratic freedoms - case in point: the separation barrier - there is simply no other explanation for not building it on the border other than it was a land-grab that aimed to sieze territory and make settlements permanent. And now Jews who are told to support Israel have to bare witness to IDF soldiers firing tear gas and beating back groups of women who are trying to stop bulldozers from tearing up their olive groves.

That's not exactly an image you want going out to the world if you want to increase support for your nation.

Perhaps not, but deliberately firing rockets into civilian areas isn't exactly the best image either, and yet support for the Palestinian cause seems to be on the rise. There is a propaganda war of epic proportions going on if you haven't noticed. People (at least most Western people) seem to have a natural preference for the underdog, so Israel is right now at a strong disadvantage in winning people's hearts around the world.

True, but I've always believed that by most Western standards, Israel is not that liberal due to the amount of influence religious authorities (ie - the Chief Rabbinate) have within civil society. It shouldn't be surprising however that nation founded mainly by Europeans bears a closer resemblance to European government than it does to Arab governments. But frankly, for a nation that projects itself as a shining light of liberalism, Israel has failed to live up to it's aims.

Have you lived in Israel? Living there feels like living in a prosperous Western democracy (except for the threat of terrorism and warfare). This is in stark contrast to its neighbours. Israel is in a very different position than Western European nations, so of course by those standards of liberalism it may not quite measure up. In fact, I think much of that area has gone too far on liberalism, and so am happy that Israel is not going there, and hope that other parts of the world don't go there either.

But there has been a marked decline in how liberal a state Israel is as religious conservatives have gotten more and more influential in determining domestic and foreign government policy.

This seems to be a prominent theme in the last decade or so. Roughly since the end of the cold war, there has been a certain religious resurgence. You can see this in the US with increasing pressure by Christian groups on issues like science education, abortion, stem cells, gay marriage, etc. You can this in the Muslim world where religious extremism is definitely on the rise. I don't know what it is that's causing this but it seems to be a worldwide or at least very widespread phenomenon. I'm not any more happy about it than you are and agree that religious institutions should have less/no influence in the policies of governments.

And this has filtered out into public life as well. Whereas a woman wearing jeans would never be harassed a few decades ago, some areas of Jerusalem are no-go areas for women do to verbal and even physical harassment from religious extremists, unless they dress according to orthodox standards.

I haven't seen any articles about this, but if it's true that is most unfortunate. Nevertheless, such actions are not sanctioned by the Israeli government, they are a problem to do with certain ultra religious zealots. There is a stark difference between individual misguided citizens committing such acts, and having such laws enforced by a government, as is the case in some of Israel's neighbours.

Also, not many liberal nations deny property rights to people based on their religious background.

Arabs/Muslims can own land in Israel.

And it's these realities which young Jews find increasingly hard to ignore in the face of pressure to support Israel.

I think this is frankly a minor issue for most. The greatest fall in support I would imagine is from apathy. American Jews identify less and less with their Jewish heritage or religion, and so identify less with and care less about Israel. Why would they bother supporting a country they don't feel they have any specific ties with? This is just natural and a part of the assimilation process, where after a number of generations immigrants don't care much about their people's homelands and instead are simply a part of the society where they live. For thousands of years, nations in Europe and the middle-east prevented Jews from assimilating, and so they maintained a strong identity. But in America, Jews are free to assimilate into society, and so that identity is being lost among American Jews. That is, I suspect, the greatest source of the decline in support for Israel among American Jews.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Bonam

[Oleg Bach]

I suggest you burn your copy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Quick and easy retort hugh? I don't have a copy of that peace of garbage- I suggest you burn your copy of THE ART OF WAR.. Both of these documents are troublesome and only used by idiots..the point that I was making is that it does not matter who you are but power structures when cornered or in desperate need to control further - conspire..that's life bud--has nothing to do with Jews or anglos or the Holy Roman Empire - the problem with those who involve themselves with conspiracy "theory" is they grasp at straws because they do not see or understand the big picture...Personally I have observed and been involved in the system from the highest order to the lowest street crazy--and all I know is that the big machine is on auto pilot and there is no man behind the curtain.

[naomiglover]

Good point. Mind you, PEI has never had a suicide bombing at a lunch counter by a non resident.

Why don't you just stop with your silly comparisons. You're embarrassing yourself and starting to look like DogsOnPorch.

[M.Dancer]

Why don't you just stop with your silly comparisons. You're embarrassing yourself and starting to look like DogsOnPorch.

What is silly about comparing real estate law in Israel to PEI?

Would you prefer comparing Israel to the PA, no of course you wouldn't,,given that the penalty for selling land to a jew is death.

[DogOnPorch]

Too funny...me n' my history books n' all that don't call the Yom Kippur War a massive Arab victory.

[Rue]

What's going to happen? Will Israelis just give the country back to the Palestinians?

-k

Well if you follow the comments of most anti-Zionists yes Israelis just go poof and disappear according to

one of these scanerios:

1-kaboom my a terrorist bomb

2-kaboom by a missile

3-rat a tat tat by an invading army

4-forced excile (fleeing the Middle East presumably by boat,plane but not camel since the neighbouring

nations will of course close their borders)

5-imprisoned

6-segregated and forced to live in the apartheid system in Sharia law known as

dhimmitude which of course most anti-Zionists pretend not to know about

and instead refer to a state where Jews and Muslims live in a wonderful

democratic state exactly as in the model described by Mummar Ghadafi

which in fact believes Jews are infidel and so equality for them is

dhmmitude which protects them from themselves.

Then again given there is a Zionist conspiracy that controls all the worlds' banks and media, this may

not happen until they figure out our leader is Sara Silverman and take her down.

Edited May 21, 2010 by Rue