Mosque going up in NYC building

[Guest American Woman]

Noted. Nobody would object to a memorial at ground zero, but some of the thinking here is close to turning the place into some sort of holy shrine that will be defiled if an unclean group of people get too close to it.

Talk about completely revising/misrepresenting/demonizing peoples' actual views to make it into something it most definitely is not. :angry: Is that your idea of 'tolerance?'

[WIP]

Before I consider it acceptable? Best ask someone who lost somebody in the attack THAT question. My question was...

Do you think it is a good idea or a bad idea to build a hotel @ Babi Yar?

I thought I already made that clear that I consider the objections to the hotel to be legitimate since the article I read stated that the proposed hotel would be right in the center of the Babi Yar site. On the other hand, the NYC mosque is going to be two blocks away from the former World Trade Center; therefore, my question is: do they own the land where they propose building the mosque? If yes, let the digging begin!

[WIP]

Gee, WIP, in your neighborhood was there an airliner attack by christian extremists that knocked down a Muslim structure? No? Oh, then why would you compare apples and oranges?

I suppose....but I don't know where you're going with this analogy.

Building a mosque near the WTC is not holy nor unholy, and I find it strange that you would respect such reasoning if only it could be explained to you.

The official line has been to avoid applying collective guilt for 9/11 to all Muslims, but that seems to be the thinking in New York if they want to keep a mosque from being close to the WTC. Part of the reason why I find a desire to keep Muslims away from the area a little ludicrous is that back during the time of the 9/11 attacks, it was mentioned that Muslims working in the Trade Center Towers had leased an office in the South Tower to set up a prayer room. So, in a sense you could say they already had a mosque there before the buildings were destroyed.

Your comments on christian groups is based on fearmongering and nothing else. Christianity has had reduced sway on the political scene since they kicked prayers out of the classroom. Get back to me when Roe v Wade is overturned, or businesses are again closed on Sunday or homosexuality is again considered abnormal or rock and roll is outlawed.

Isn't Roe vs. Wade already on shaky ground? Especially with the conservative skewing of the Supreme Court over the last 20 years. And those others from my pov show me that conservative fundamentalists can't feel satisfied following their own rules until they can impose them on everyone else. And preventing Christian conservatives from imposing their will...like the gay marriage thing, is considered a violation of Christian rights.

As far as the issue of the 2 mosques already in use, I pointed this out several pages ago, but why can't they simply fix the structure that got damaged? If they are using it, and they are, then it has been deemed safe by the city. It's obvious they are only using the damage as an excuse to put up a 13 story structure, and any low level city clerk can see through the strategy. The other mosque can be opened more than 1 day a week to meet demand, if there is any. But for some reason you can't see any of this and I am really puzzled as to why. It's obvious that you have reasoning and an intellect, but you can't analyze the situation and simply ask why on the Muslim side as you have on the side of the opponents. Weird.

Okay, I guess I don't get why replacing the old building is an unreasonable request. None of the articles say why the other building is only used once a week, but there must be some reason for its limited use. A NY Daily News article said there was a sizeable Muslim community living in the area, so its not like there all bused in to the area.

[DogOnPorch]

Okay, I guess I don't get why replacing the old building is an unreasonable request. None of the articles say why the other building is only used once a week, but there must be some reason for its limited use. A NY Daily News article said there was a sizeable Muslim community living in the area, so its not like there all bused in to the area.

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Unlike Park Slope or Boerum Hill or that ugly part of Midwood lined with rundown shops selling phone cards and cheap beads, Lower Manhattan is not home to a large Muslim community. No one seriously claims that it is. Manhattan's storefront mosques are largely used by Pakistani and Afghan Muslims who work nearby but who actually live in Brooklyn, Queens or New Jersey. None of this is seriously in dispute.

http://www.eurasiareview.com/2010/05/ground-zero-mosque-first-you-bomb-and.html

[ToadBrother]

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The article you referenced is pretty damned bigoted. Again, it's simply prejudicial. Do you have any justification that doesn't amount to "all Muslims are responsible for 9-11"?

[DogOnPorch]

TB: The article you referenced is pretty damned bigoted. Again, it's simply prejudicial. Do you have any justification that doesn't amount to "all Muslims are responsible for 9-11"?

I didn't write it. However the New Yorker who did states that most Muslims in Manhattan are, infact...'bused-in'. Is he a liar?

[DogOnPorch]

I thought I already made that clear that I consider the objections to the hotel to be legitimate since the article I read stated that the proposed hotel would be right in the center of the Babi Yar site. On the other hand, the NYC mosque is going to be two blocks away from the former World Trade Center; therefore, my question is: do they own the land where they propose building the mosque? If yes, let the digging begin!

You still managed to not answer my question: "Do you think it is a good idea or a bad idea to build a hotel @ Babi Yar?"

If no...why not? Babi Yar was a long time ago and not all Ukrainians are guilty...right?

[ToadBrother]

I didn't write it. However the New Yorker who did states that most Muslims in Manhattan are, infact...'bused-in'. Is he a liar?

Well, first of all, I think you'd need to provide some evidence of the claim. Now, let's assume that the claim is true. That still doesn't answer the fundamental question, which is why Muslims in general are being blamed for 9-11. I mean, if building a mosque near ground zero is insensitive, what other reason besides all of Islam being responsible for 9-11 could there be for claiming it is insensitive?

Maybe these Muslims planning on building the mosque are rabblerousers. But that's rather irrelevant to the bigger question.

[DogOnPorch]

Well, first of all, I think you'd need to provide some evidence of the claim. Now, let's assume that the claim is true. That still doesn't answer the fundamental question, which is why Muslims in general are being blamed for 9-11. I mean, if building a mosque near ground zero is insensitive, what other reason besides all of Islam being responsible for 9-11 could there be for claiming it is insensitive?

Maybe these Muslims planning on building the mosque are rabblerousers. But that's rather irrelevant to the bigger question.

My point re: Babi Yar. I doubt the folks building the hotels...the folks staying in them...the folks living around them...had ANYTHING to do with the horrific slaughter which the place is infamous for. Other Ukrainians and Germans did that. So why not build the hotels? I can see no logical reason unless we are just getting sentimental about dead people.

[ToadBrother]

My point re: Babi Yar. I doubt the folks building the hotels...the folks staying in them...the folks living around them...had ANYTHING to do with the horrific slaughter which the place is infamous for. Other Ukrainians and Germans did that. So why not build the hotels? I can see no logical reason unless we are just getting sentimental about dead people.

Here's a simple question.

Is every Muslim in the world responsible for 9-11?

[DogOnPorch]

Is every Ukrainian responsible for Babi Yar? Loaded questions...lol. Two can play the game...eh?

[ToadBrother]

Is every Ukrainian responsible for Babi Yar? Loaded questions...lol. Two can play the game...eh?

I wasn't aware that the mosque was actually being built on the site of 9-11. So you tell me, what sort of distance is respectable for a mosque? Would you have the same objections to a Buddhist temple or a Shinto shrine?

[DogOnPorch]

I wasn't aware that the mosque was actually being built on the site of 9-11. So you tell me, what sort of distance is respectable for a mosque? Would you have the same objections to a Buddhist temple or a Shinto shrine?

I believe the building was damaged on 9-11 and wouldn't have been available for this mosque project had 9-11 not occured. So I'd say it is part of the site.

Is every Ukrainian responsible for Babi Yar? What distance from the site is OK for a hotel or a TV tower (already built)?

[Oleg Bach]

No such thing as a moderate muslim - but many think there are

Borg

There should be no such thing as a moderate Christian- but the world is full of non-committed cowards who do not embrace the doctrines of courage and truth..because we are now weakened as a culture- we will be displaced by others with severe convictions and doctrine that over powers the state- CHRISTIANITY - was by design to over power the state- now instead of it being a movement of rebellion and freedom it is simply state sponsored corporate compliance-Muslims will not be as passive and shame on us- they will rule in time.

[WIP]

You still managed to not answer my question: "Do you think it is a good idea or a bad idea to build a hotel @ Babi Yar?"

If no...why not? Babi Yar was a long time ago and not all Ukrainians are guilty...right?

Is this a reading comprehension thing? I thought I made it pretty clear that a hotel shouldn't be built in the middle of the site. On the other hand, you haven't answered my question why you consider building a mosque two blocks away from WTC to be an equivalent violation!

[WIP]

I didn't write it. However the New Yorker who did states that most Muslims in Manhattan are, infact...'bused-in'. Is he a liar?

How the hell should anyone who's not familiar with NYC know how many Muslims live in the area, and how many just work there? Nevertheless, if they are more religiously observant than the Muslims who live in my neighbourhood, and do the five prayers a day thing, then maybe they need a mosque close to work. If it's to be built on land they own, two blocks away from the site, then where's the problem?

[DogOnPorch]

Another example of tasteless, insensitive construction would be what happened to 10050 Cielo Drive in Hollywood (Sharon Tate-Polanski and friends). The old, history rich, haunted bungalow torn down...gigantic, ugly, expensive monolith put up in its place. At least Trent Reznor managed to squirrel away with the front door. They couldn't get anyone but industrial-goth Reznor to rent the former house...and pretty predictably...the new one has trouble finding residents. Who would want to live in either post 1969? A Manson Family member who won the SuperBall Loto? Pretty grim.

[DogOnPorch]

How the hell should anyone who's not familiar with NYC know how many Muslims live in the area, and how many just work there? Nevertheless, if they are more religiously observant than the Muslims who live in my neighbourhood, and do the five prayers a day thing, then maybe they need a mosque close to work. If it's to be built on land they own, two blocks away from the site, then where's the problem?

I assume the city of Kiev owned the land when a huge ugly TV tower went up on the Babi Yar site (which like the 9-11 site...is rather large in size). I also assume they own rights to the land where these hotels to house football fans will be built. Babi Yar...a gorge first mentioned in the 1400s, once spanned a large area to the city's north west. Since WW2, urbanization of this historical site has proceeded to the point where there is only the tiny chunk left on the corners of Stetsenka and Oleny Teligy streets. It took outside money to have the monument to the many thousands murdered erected as the residents of Kiev...as in WW2...seemed to care little about what happened to the city's Jews.

Edited May 18, 2010 by DogOnPorch

[Sir Bandelot]

So why not build the hotels? I can see no logical reason unless we are just getting sentimental about dead people.

What do you mean. Because people died there? I believe they are constructing a memorial centre and museum on part of the WTC site. But they are also constructing several new buildings right on the site as well, including the "One World Trade Center". So it's not a problem to build new structures on the very site where many people died. And apparently the mosque is a bit further away than this, so.

[DogOnPorch]

What do you mean. Because people died there? I believe they are constructing a memorial centre and museum on part of the WTC site. But they are also constructing several new buildings right on the site as well, including the "One World Trade Center". So it's not a problem to build new structures on the very site where many people died. And apparently the mosque is a bit further away than this, so.

Would you live in 10066 Cielo Drive by chance?

[Oleg Bach]

There are two old Ukrianian brothers that I was in contact with...one hung himself- years later the other one hung himself- I suppose it was 60 year old guilt- some Ukes supported Stalin and later the Nazis..they compromised their own clan for a piece of bread and a pat on the head- Justice some times takes a long time.

[Sir Bandelot]

Would you live in 10066 Cielo Drive by chance?

Thousands of people will work at the new site, once it's built.

[DogOnPorch]

Is that a 'yes'?

[ToadBrother]

I believe the building was damaged on 9-11 and wouldn't have been available for this mosque project had 9-11 not occured. So I'd say it is part of the site.

Is every Ukrainian responsible for Babi Yar? What distance from the site is OK for a hotel or a TV tower (already built)?

They're building office towers on most of the site. By your argument, from the Ukrainian example, that's wrong to.

Your example is a red herring, an attempt to use some clever but still fallacious logic along with a rather ironically topical example elsewhere (if building hotels on top of the site of a mass murder is bad, how much better is building Manhattan office towers?) to justify what is essentially an indefensibly bigoted opinion.

[Sir Bandelot]

Is that a 'yes'?

Would I want to live in the house where those murders were commited, No. Would I be willing to work at the new WTC site, Yes. Would I like to go to visit it, yes. Do I think there's anything wrong with building a new mosqu several blocks away, no.