Mosque going up in NYC building

[GostHacked]

In his case your request is quite unreasonable...

I know it is.

[DogOnPorch]

I know it is.

Damn Zionist settlers should get the hell out of Gaza, eh?

[GostHacked]

Damn Zionist settlers should get the hell out of Gaza, eh?

Yes, Israel needs to stop the illegal settlements in the occupied territories. But you are going to construde this in some way to fit your trolling narrative.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes, Israel needs to stop the illegal settlements in the occupied territories. But you are going to construde this in some way to fit your trolling narrative.

Bwah hah ha ha...newb. There are no filthy Zionist settlers in Gaza! You got it wrong AGAIN!!

[Guest American Woman]

Don;t be afraid, it will likely never happen.

It was sought to beintroduced for non-criminal code courts, dispute courts as it were, but went nowhere.

I still find it disturbing that it was even an issue, and "will likely" never happen isn't the same as will never happen. It's not that I'm "afraid," but like I said, we shouldn't take our freedoms for granted and if there hadn't been people concerned about it - ie: a strong objection - it's impossible to know if the end result would have been the same.

Ok, you can be a little scared I guess, a New Jersey Judge did allow a defendant go free because of Sharia law,he raped and beat his wife and the Judge bought his malarkey.

Thanksfully and smartly, it was overturned.

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/fischer/100725

I'm aware of that case, and in fact posted about it here - saying the same thing you said, that fortunately the ruling was overturned.

Again, though, it just shows that it is something we should be aware of and not be complacent about.

[Bonam]

Again, though, it just shows that it is something we should be aware of and not be complacent about.

Indeed. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

We cannot allow laws or precedents that impinge on our freedoms to creep up on us, even if those violations affect only a small portion of the population (i.e. Muslim women).

[GostHacked]

Bwah hah ha ha...newb. There are no filthy Zionist settlers in Gaza! You got it wrong AGAIN!!

I was right.

I said 'illegal settlements in the occupied territories'. I did not say Gaza or West Bank specifically. Reading comprehension is key here Doggy. I knew you would twist it. Busted.

[DogOnPorch]

I was right.

I said 'illegal settlements in the occupied territories'. I did not say Gaza or West Bank specifically. Reading comprehension is key here Doggy. I knew you would twist it. Busted.

Meh...I know you fell for it again and that's what counts, GH. I'll do it again, too.

[Machjo]

I am all for a mosque near the Ground Zero site.

I am also all for a Catholic Church and/or a Jewish Synagogue built in Mecca.

Anyone tell me why this would be different?

Fully agreed. So let's practice freedom of religion here to set an example to the Saudi regime.

[Guest American Woman]

Fully agreed. So let's practice freedom of religion here to set an example to the Saudi regime.

Yeah, because Saudi Arabia looks to the western world as an example .....

[msj]

Yeah, because Saudi Arabia looks to the western world as an example .....

So what are you getting at?

That "we" should curtail our freedoms because SA is run by tyrannical idiots?

That the freedoms that the US enjoys are not an inspiration to other people from around the world?

[CANADIEN]

Fully agreed. So let's practice freedom of religion here to set an example to the Saudi regime.

Nope. Let's practice freedom of religion because this is the right thing to do.

Edited August 28, 2011 by CANADIEN

[Guest American Woman]

So what are you getting at?

That "we" should curtail our freedoms because SA is run by tyrannical idiots?

That the freedoms that the US enjoys are not an inspiration to other people from around the world?

So now suddenly the U.S. is an inspiration around the world, eh?

No, I'm not saying that at all. Obviously I support our freedoms, and that includes the freedom of religion that my country was founded on. For that reason, I don't want to take our freedoms for granted, I want to protect our freedoms.

So what I'm saying is the Saudi government doesn't look to the western world as an example. They do what they want, how they want; and that includes no freedom of religion - it's an Islamic state. That the U.S. allows mosques throughout the nation means squat to them in regards to how they are going to do things in their country. I'm sure they approve of our "freedom of religion" allowing the building of mosques in our nations, though. They just have no intent to reciprocate - regardless of any "example" we may be setting. After all, we've been setting that example since the founding of our nation.

[msj]

So now suddenly the U.S. is an inspiration around the world, eh?

What's with the "suddenly" part?

Are you ignorant of the alleged influence on the French Revolution back in 1789?

No, I'm not saying that at all. Obviously I support our freedoms, and that includes the freedom of religion that my country was founded on. For that reason, I don't want to take our freedoms for granted, I want to protect our freedoms.

So what I'm saying is the Saudi government doesn't look to the western world as an example. They do what they want, how they want; and that includes no freedom of religion - it's an Islamic state. That the U.S. allows mosques throughout the nation means squat to them in regards to how they are going to do things in their country. I'm sure they approve of our "freedom of religion" allowing the building of mosques in our nations, though. They just have no intent to reciprocate - regardless of any "example" we may be setting. After all, we've been setting that example since the founding of our nation.

Sure, but if some of the Saudi people start to look to the western world and our freedoms then maybe they will grow a set, stand up to the tyranny (which happens to have a Muslim flavour to it) and become more democratic and free.

It's not like our own countries don't have a history of tyranny behind them (with a Christian flavour) and it's not like some people wouldn't want to return us to those "good old days."

[Guest American Woman]

What's with the "suddenly" part?

The "suddenly" part was taking the light touch, in light of your past comments about how the world views the United States. Hence, the wink.

Sure, but if some of the Saudi people start to look to the western world and our freedoms then maybe they will grow a set, stand up to the tyranny (which happens to have a Muslim flavour to it) and become more democratic and free.

The powers that be don't make it real possible for people to stand up to the tyranny - no matter how "big a set" they grow.

It's not like our own countries don't have a history of tyranny behind them (with a Christian flavour) and it's not like some people wouldn't want to return us to those "good old days."

Our history, while it has it's flaws, was based on freedom - not tyranny. That in itself makes it much easier to stand up for one's right - without worrying about the (rather serious) consequences from the government. It's what sets our countries apart from Saudi Arabia.

Case in point. Tienanmen Square. The students fighting for democracy there certainly had 'an admirable set,' yet look where it got them - as the rest of the world looked on.

[msj]

The "suddenly" part was taking the light touch, in light of your past comments about how the world views the United States. Hence, the wink.

Methinks you are mixing me up with someone else or you are misinterpreting my past comments.

The powers that be don't make it real possible for people to stand up to the tyranny - no matter how "big a set" they grow.

When have the powers that be ever made it easy?

Our history, while it has it's flaws, was based on freedom - not tyranny. That in itself makes it much easier to stand up for one's right - without worrying about the (rather serious) consequences from the government. It's what sets our countries apart from Saudi Arabia.

Sure it was based on freedom. A freedom won by our ancestors back in Europe.

A freedom that has continuously been fought for generation after generation. Including for racial minorities and women.

Although, for women, it wasn't as murderously bloody as it was for slaves or civil rights leaders/followers.

Case in point. Tienanmen Square. The students fighting for democracy there certainly had 'an admirable set,' yet look where it got them - as the rest of the world looked on.

So since they failed they should just give up and learn to live with it?

[jbg]

That the freedoms that the US enjoys are not an inspiration to other people from around the world?

Do Saudi rulers give their people a choice about whether or not to be "inspired"?

[msj]

Do Saudi rulers give their people a choice about whether or not to be "inspired"?

That's a lot of power they must have: complete control over what the people are thinking.

I don't think any government has that kind of power.

[Guest American Woman]

That's a lot of power they must have: complete control over what the people are thinking.

I don't think any government has that kind of power.

From what I understand, the quest for democracy took a major step backwards after Tienanmen - propaganda can do that. So yes, some governments do have that kind of power; it is, indeed, "a lot of power." Furthermore, the fear of life imprisonment and/or death is very real and if one thinks it will most likely be for nothing, it's not cowardice not to act, it's the desire to live - and the powers that be know this, and play on it. By the same token, do you think it was the slaves fault that they were enslaved before emancipation? Do you think the "masters" didn't have "a lot of power?"

[Machjo]

Yeah, because Saudi Arabia looks to the western world as an example .....

I guess you do have a point. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, if a black man should harm a white man in any way, the ENTIRE local black community, or perhaps the entire African American community nationwide had to brace for impact! That was a great way to keep blacks in their place. :~

So why not apply the same principle now: if a Muslim kills an American, make sure all Muslims know our displeasure. If Saudi Arabia discriminates against Christians, we'll discriminate right back at them.

After all, it worked for China too. In the 1800s, when China dared seize and burn the opium from a British ship and send the crew back empty handed, the whole British army made sure the whole of China felt its displeasure.

Collective punishment for the crimes of the few has always been an effective deterrent. Right? :~

[Machjo]

Nope. Let's practice freedom of religion because this is the right thing to do.

Agreed. Better yet. I was simply trying to point out that rather than lower our own standards to those of tyrants does not make sense.

[Guest American Woman]

I guess you do have a point. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, if a black man should harm a white man in any way, the ENTIRE local black community, or perhaps the entire African American community nationwide had to brace for impact! That was a great way to keep blacks in their place. :~

So why not apply the same principle now: if a Muslim kills an American, make sure all Muslims know our displeasure. If Saudi Arabia discriminates against Christians, we'll discriminate right back at them.

After all, it worked for China too. In the 1800s, when China dared seize and burn the opium from a British ship and send the crew back empty handed, the whole British army made sure the whole of China felt its displeasure.

Collective punishment for the crimes of the few has always been an effective deterrent. Right? :~

I seriously have no idea what you're going on about ............. or why.

[Machjo]

So now suddenly the U.S. is an inspiration around the world, eh?

No, I'm not saying that at all. Obviously I support our freedoms, and that includes the freedom of religion that my country was founded on. For that reason, I don't want to take our freedoms for granted, I want to protect our freedoms.

So what I'm saying is the Saudi government doesn't look to the western world as an example. They do what they want, how they want; and that includes no freedom of religion - it's an Islamic state. That the U.S. allows mosques throughout the nation means squat to them in regards to how they are going to do things in their country. I'm sure they approve of our "freedom of religion" allowing the building of mosques in our nations, though. They just have no intent to reciprocate - regardless of any "example" we may be setting. After all, we've been setting that example since the founding of our nation.

First off, not all Muslims agree with Saudi Arabia. After all, the Qur'an itself states: "Let there be no compulsion in religion".

Secondly, there is no reciprocation, since reciprocation implies X (in this case Saudi Arabia) gives Y (in this case the US) something, and Y gives X something in return.

What we're talking about here is X (Saudi Arabia) removing freedoms from A (Christians), and Y (the USA) giving B (Muslims) freedom of religion. So we have X removing freedoms from A and Y giving freedoms to B. No relationship whatsoever.

[Machjo]

I seriously have no idea what you're going on about ............. or why.

I was criticising your collectivist mindset. To say that we should punish Muslims for what some individuals have done in the name of Islam is equal to punishing all blacks for what one black may have done to a white man.

Imagine expecting the black community to come out and apologize profusely every time a black man killed a white man. This is what we are asking of the Muslim community.

Edited August 28, 2011 by Machjo

[Guest American Woman]

First off, not all Muslims agree with Saudi Arabia. After all, the Qur'an itself states: "Let there be no compulsion in religion".

Ummmm .... your comment was in regards to Saudi Arabia, therefore my reply - to your comment - was in regards to Saudi Arabia, not "all Muslims."