Sex Ed taught in Grade1 now!

[Handsome Rob]

Why does one need to have a special interest to be included? that's the way it reads if something is not to be included then it is excluded... if it's not what you meant explain it better...

Why aren't the latterday saints pushing to be included in the curriculum?

they were getting beaten and mocked when I was a kid(and that was a long time ago) and they're still being abused now...so how do you figure doing nothing different will suddenly improve their situation?..

Anecdotal and on well established agenda. I said evidence.

no parents are legal guardians, parents do not own their kids...abuse those kids and the state will remove them from the guardians/parents care...

By all means, lets open up re-education camps too. Wonder if Pol Pot or Stalin has any kids.

[wyly]

Why aren't the latterday saints pushing to be included in the curriculum?

gay latterday saints are not excluded

Anecdotal and on well established agenda. I said evidence.

evidence? moving the goalposts are we? where was your evidence when you posted "When they read 'the gay book' at school, what sort of ribbing & bullying is the gay kid in the class going to be subjected to?"...you're making presumtions on more bullying without evidence...

kids are bullied now for being gay and have been for generations that's not anecdotal, do you deny this happens?...

By all means, lets open up re-education camps too. Wonder if Pol Pot or Stalin has any kids

ya lets go back to the days where a dad could beat the crap out of his wife and kids and authorities would do nothing, good times, good times...

no one owns anyone, parents do not own kids, a parent that abuses their authority will lose their privilage of guardianship...

[Pliny]

Let's start with the premise. Please provide citations in actual peer reviewed studies indicating that sex education leads to higher STD and pregnancy rates. Then we can talk about the rest.

You're sounding like wyly now. Gosh peer reviewed studies. Wyly thinks people are too stupid to understand them better check and see if he thinks you're too stupid.

[Pliny]

wow you have some real serious issues with sex, you need help not your kids...

ya lets look at the UK which in 2008 was looking at switching to a Netherlands model that starts in the first grade...the netherlands the average age for loss of virginity is 17.7 where as UK is 16, Canada & USA is 17 the world average is 16.3...

teenage birth rate per thousand, Canada 13.7, UK 26.1, USA 41.9...Netherlands 5.2

Give me an independent study not a study promoting sex education and family planning.

There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics.

teenage birth rate per thousand, Canada 13.7, UK 26.1, USA 41.9...Netherlands 5.2

Doesn't this seem odd to you? Why does the Netherlands have a teenage birth rate per thousand of 5.2.

That's way lower than the others. Must an effective sex ed program, I guess.

Oh wait! Isn't abortion free, accessible and encouraged there?

That's what I mean by statistics. You and the article you cite try and pass this off as being the results of a great sexual education program and family planning. The reason lies elsewhere.

....you really suck at education.

He would probably be a decent teacher. You suck at education. An education involves more than agreeing with peer reviewed literature.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Pliny

[Handsome Rob]

gay latterday saints are not excluded

But why does the agenda not include them?

evidence? moving the goalposts are we? where was your evidence when you posted "When they read 'the gay book' at school, what sort of ribbing & bullying is the gay kid in the class going to be subjected to?"...you're making presumtions on more bullying without evidence...

kids are bullied now for being gay and have been for generations that's not anecdotal, do you deny this happens?...

Of course not. I said evidence that pushing such agendas as this one helps to eliminate that issue. My question, the burden of proof is on you.

ya lets go back to the days where a dad could beat the crap out of his wife and kids and authorities would do nothing, good times, good times...

no one owns anyone, parents do not own kids, a parent that abuses their authority will lose their privilage of guardianship...

That's what we have a criminal code for.

Look at it this way, what happened to the normal distribution, the bell curve? Minorities are going to be under-represented, because, they're minorities. Trying to change that is going to generate some kinds of friction, something plainly evidenced today.

It's the difference between say, an english teacher including a book that included gay people as characters because they feel the book is worthy of the curriculum, or including a book that includes gay characters because the state dictates that they must.

That is a big difference to many people.

[Michael Hardner]

Why though? Why does one need to have a special interest to be included? What makes this a right?

The specialist interest is in the groups that agitate in the media, and make statements that can be easily misunderstood. There is no special interest in teaching reality, i.e. that body parts are not named `boo-boo` and that there are such things as single parents and same-sex parents.

Has anybody ever thought about the adversity that such lobbying generates? When they read 'the gay book' at school, what sort of ribbing & bullying is the gay kid in the class going to be subjected to?

Less than if he is treated as someone who shouldn`t be discussed in polite company.

Why can we not just have a curriculum that has no agenda to keep things out, nor in, and such things are included because they have a rightful place for all to agree on?

Agreed. The educators, I`m sure, would just include these topics without lobbying.

[Michael Hardner]

We have to consider every premise on its own merits! Just because someone appears to have character flaws doesn't have anything to do with the fact that once in a while his premise might have some validity.

Do you really believe that a prejudiced or bigoted person can never be right in ANY area with ANY premise?

Even a broken clock is right twice a day!

Fair enough, but I do consider such opinionated thoughts separately from those of experts or those who at least try to be objective and accomodating.

Although I will grant you that some folks are so far out there or are such simple trolls that they aren't worth the effort.

I also get angered by pesky mosquitoes.

[Muddy]

I always find it telling how guys like you throw homosexual and pedophile around as if they were the same thing.

At any rate, and ignoring your obvious bias against homosexuals, generally speaking the notion of pedophile teachers is scary, regardless of the course. I mean, you'd feel better having a pedophile teaching math?

Because, of course, ignorance is always a victory. Because ignorant kids won't have sex, right?

Where did I say homosexual and pedophile were the same thing? I deliberately separated the two. Pedophiles can be either straight or homosexual or just pedophile predators on any child regardless of sex. In any case I do not want any of these people teaching my grand children their prejudices .

Where did I ever say that kids will not have sex? I may be old but I sure remember the healthy curiosity I had towards Gals . But it certainly was not a priority at eight years old. I wanted to score goals in a net ,not on the wee beauty two desks up.

There has been a movement for years to have the age of consent lowered . This group is called men loving boys. They are homosexual pedophiles and they have have a driven agenda. Most homosexuals would distance themselves from this group of course ,but I certainly do not want their influence ,that this is normal behaviour in our class rooms and developing minds. Eight year olds are not ready for this message.

[lukin]

ya they do, it's called biology it's a science...if you don't like it go to a private school or move to the US where ignorance has become a science in it's school systems...

Not in Grade 3.

BS

government statistics around the world are available everywhere on the web are you claiming the USA is deliberately inventing an issue as is the UK? are you claiming it's global conspiracy to introduce sex-ed into Ontario??? what a pathetic teacher you must have been "no students you don't need to do any research I'll supply you with all the facts I believe to be true"

Like I said earlier, stats are always skewed. Billions of dollars were given to scientists to prove that humans are causing climate change. They were paid to publish research to prove what the payees wanted them to prove. Those aren't reliable stats. Just think how many peole are out to lunch on issues because they rely on the CBC for information.

a teacher denying the worth of research, they allowed you to teach?... I call Bull shit with an attitude like that you were never a teacher...

I taught kids to do their own research using multiple sources. I taught kids not to believe everything they hear in the news. I taught kids to think critically, and to realize there is always two sides, and that a concentrated effort by media can keep the other side silent. Wyly, you are very good at directing insults at those who disagree with you. I find it childish.

[lukin]

Fair enough, but I do consider such opinionated thoughts separately from those of experts or those who at least try to be objective and accomodating.

I also get angered by pesky mosquitoes.

You are so intolerant that you get angered by anyone who doesn't share your point of view. It's called ignorance.

[lukin]

The specialist interest is in the groups that agitate in the media, and make statements that can be easily misunderstood. There is no special interest in teaching reality, i.e. that body parts are not named `boo-boo` and that there are such things as single parents and same-sex parents.

Less than if he is treated as someone who shouldn`t be discussed in polite company.

Agreed. The educators, I`m sure, would just include these topics without lobbying.

Are you concerned about the bullying a Christian child receives after she privately says grace before lunch? Does she deserve the ridicule?

[Michael Hardner]

You are so intolerant that you get angered by anyone who doesn't share your point of view. It's called ignorance.

Not at all. In fact, I much prefer to discuss issues with intelligent and reasoned persons who disagree with me. I tend to learn more that way, and it's not unknown for me to modify my views.

I have done so on:

- the Charter of Rights

- Workfare

- HRCs

- Global Warming

How often do your views become more liberal ?

[Michael Hardner]

Are you concerned about the bullying a Christian child receives after she privately says grace before lunch? Does she deserve the ridicule?

Of course I am. Why would you think I wouldn't be ?

[Muddy]

Now about this owning children. The state has a right given to them by society at large to protect children from parental abuse. But the question is what is abuse? Is it a well thought out slap on the bum? Is it denying a child the right to dictate bed time? Or what they want to wear?When they can come and go?

To me my children when born were not the property of the state. They were little sweet charges given to us by God to nurture ,love and guide to adult hood. We were so firm in this thinking I caused my self a lot of grief because I would not sign to receive the baby bonus. My wife would not apply for Unemployment because this was our responsibility in the first pregnancy, and she never went back to work such was the great responsibilty we had under taken. Not the states responsibility! Ours and ours alone!

I sure did abuse my kids. We had rules in our house. No swearing and that stands today.Friends of theirs or ours who did were asked to leave our premises.Was that abuse? To me parenting is living by example. The sex talk came at puberty from either my Mrs. or me depending on gender. My kids grew up straight and strong individuals. They all live within two minutes of us. We get stuck baby sitting a lot. Oh my! What a burden!LOL! My kids and their spouses know what is expected of them as parents. Just like the vast majority of parents out there. They know the the great responsibility they have taken on by procreating. They don`t need the state to guide them. They don`t need the school to teach sex education.

They have been given a template on parenting by us as their parents. If we were good parents kids will emulate us or if bad parents they will do the opposite.

When abuse is seen ,I mean real abuse. Not because some youngster reports they had there bum slightly tanned as a last resort in discipline. What I consider abuse is a school system that undermines parents, and their responsibilities .Sex education being one of them being taught by teachers who may or not be qualified.

But no matter how good a parent one may strive to be. Peer pressure as a child grows will dictate a great deal of their morals and actions at any given point in time.

If there is abuse in society I believe the teachers have it right under their noses and are not able to handle it.At the moment they don`t have the tools. It is called the bully!Right in the school. This is the greatest challenge our kids face on a daily basis once they are seen to be weak. The bully scoffs at the rules knowing first hand that nothing will happen to them .The victim will run the gauntlet day after day. But a weak kneed system and principals will not protect him or her from the thugs in their midst.Now thats abuse. It also is why we have mental break downs and suicides. Lets strive to eliminate bullying. A lot more important than degenerate sex education in grade three.

[lukin]

Not at all. In fact, I much prefer to discuss issues with intelligent and reasoned persons who disagree with me. I tend to learn more that way, and it's not unknown for me to modify my views.

I have done so on:

- the Charter of Rights

- Workfare

- HRCs

- Global Warming

How often do your views become more liberal ?

My answer to your fair question is this: During my university years, I was a staunch liberal. Global warming is a huge issue. I once believed humans were the main cause. After extensive reading, my views on that subject have changed.

[Michael Hardner]

My answer to your fair question is this: During my university years, I was a staunch liberal. Global warming is a huge issue. I once believed humans were the main cause. After extensive reading, my views on that subject have changed.

So the answer is no.

I'm not sure what you were reading to mislead you on the causes of global warming, but there is a separate thread on that topic.

[Sir Bandelot]

I'm with Lukin and Muddy on this one, the school shouldn't be allowed to teach liberalist sex education as part of the standard curriculum. Offer it as an optional course that parents and students can decide if they should attend. Problem is school teachers have too much power while they conduct the class and their personal values get pushed onto the kids, who don't necessarily know that the teachers conduct is inappropriate (as with the story about the Mike Harris hater), sometimes parents don't find out what's going on in the classroom. I don't want some liberal hedonist explaining oral and anal sex to my kids, particularly at such a young age.

[Pliny]

How often do your views become more liberal ?

How often do your views become less liberal, Michael?

[Michael Hardner]

I don't want some liberal hedonist explaining oral and anal sex to my kids, particularly at such a young age.

Just curious - did you look at the curriculum itself or are you basing your opinion on the news item ?

[Michael Hardner]

How often do your views become less liberal, Michael?

It's a seismic shift, so about as often as a major earthquake !

The first time it happened, I was surprised. But since I live according to principles, and am not a blind follower, eventually it had to happen that I agree with those that I generally disagree with.

[Sir Bandelot]

And by the way I don't think anything is wrong with anecdotal information, I certainly don't trust "studies" either as we've seen, time and again that there is often a political or financial agenda behind the statistics. Statistics can be interpreted in many ways, while the study only attempts to portray the data in one way or another. I believe human beings before I believe some study backed by a large corporation

[Pliny]

Give me an independent study not a study promoting sex education and family planning.

There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics.

Doesn't this seem odd to you? Why does the Netherlands have a teenage birth rate per thousand of 5.2.

That's way lower than the others. Must an effective sex ed program, I guess.

Oh wait! Isn't abortion free, accessible and encouraged there?

That's what I mean by statistics. You and the article you cite try and pass this off as being the results of a great sexual education program and family planning. The reason lies elsewhere.

I looked at some abortion statistics and the European abortion rate is lower than the North American. So my claim that teen births were lower in Europe because of more liberal attitudes towards abortion don't hold water.

Could it be that a formal sex education is effective in reducing teen pregnancies and harmful effects of teen sexual activity, like abortion and STDs.

Or could it be that it leads to higher divorce rates, the general breakdown of the family, child poverty, promiscuity, confusion of gender identity, among other problems?

Well, we'll have to look at what the statistics tell us.

[wyly]

There are lies, there are damned lies, and then there are statistics.

and then there's self imposed ignorance...

Doesn't this seem odd to you? Why does the Netherlands have a teenage birth rate per thousand of 5.2.

That's way lower than the others. Must an effective sex ed program, I guess.

Oh wait! Isn't abortion free, accessible and encouraged there?

your inquisitive mind actually looked into this objectively....oh wait you didn't, Netherlands teenage abortion rate is 4 per thousand... Canada's 13.8 per thousand tell me it ain't so pliny

they start having sex later than Canadian kids, fewer teenage pregnancys, fewer teenage abortions, fewer teenage STD's and it's not even close, they are much better than us...

so I guess it is a an effective sex-ed program after all...

He would probably be a decent teacher. You suck at education. An education involves more than agreeing with peer reviewed literature.

I can assume you don't have a uni degree and neither does Lukin, without the ability to research independently gaining a degree is impossible, what teacher would ignore research as a learning tool, which Lukin and you have openly spurned...an education requires learning to how research in order to learn.... Edited April 23, 2010 by wyly

[wyly]

I taught kids to do their own research using multiple sources. I taught kids not to believe everything they hear in the news. I taught kids to think critically, and to realize there is always two sides, and that a concentrated effort by media can keep the other side silent.

more BS, now you claim to promote research and yet do none yourself, where have you posted any countering stats or research supporting your POV? nowhere because there are none, why because you're wrong and you know it, the entire issue is clouded by your prejudices and personally uncomfortable with sex...

you're trying to convince us that official government stats are a "media conspiracy" to keep the other side silent?

Wyly, you are very good at directing insults at those who disagree with you. I find it childish.

and you're very good at condescending attitude I find it very pompous...

[wyly]

You are so intolerant that you get angered by anyone who doesn't share your point of view. It's called ignorance.

no ignorance is when someone is so prejudiced they can't bring themselves to accept or even look at the evidence that disagrees with their mistaken beliefs...

POV based on ignorance is BS and worthless, no wait BS can at least be used in the garden...