Police Self-Investigations; Conflict of Interest?

[M.Dancer]

No, just the need to subject SIU's to independent third party audits has been demonstrated.

See Dziekanski et al.

What does he have to do with anything? There was no criminal investigation and no one was charged with a crime.

[MysTerri]

What does he have to do with anything? There was no criminal investigation and no one was charged with a crime.

EXACTLY!

[M.Dancer]

EXACTLY!

So the fact there was no crime, no criminal intent...means you think that is a reason for an outside police force to investigate?

I saw a cop direct traffic today....should we bring in a investigation unit too?

Edited April 20, 2010 by M.Dancer

[MysTerri]

So the fact there was no crime, no criminal intent...means you think that is a reason for an outside police force to investigate?

Well to be truthful, it is what I witnessed on the video plus how the investigation and testimony of the officers were not in sync, not to mention a number of other questionable in-custody deaths.

Edited April 20, 2010 by MysTerri

[Michael Hardner]

To my mind, that incident is a reason to not have public investigations of the police. There was a a lot of second-guessing in the reporting.

[Wilber]

The solution to the problem of using crime investigators to investigate police is to monitor and record the process they follow and then audit that record with an independent third party - a party with expertise in accountability and transparency.

And the persons most qualified to carry out such investigations would in all likelihood be retired police officers.

Municipal departments in BC almost always hand over investigations involving their members to other departments. Recent cases have shown that those other departments have not been reluctant to recommend charges when warranted.

A problem has been the RCMP which has historically refused to let other departments investigate its members. The continual erosion of public confidence in the RCMP is finally starting to sink in with its hierarchy and this is starting to change.

[Muddy]

I have always been a police supporter and always wish the Lads in blue a good day. I have even helped police physically in arresting a couple of thugs. Many years ago of course ,I am not nearly as fit or brave in my dottering old age!

One of my Police heros beside Sgt Preston of the Yukon and his wonder dog King was Chief Fantino of the OPP. But he has ,from my view, allowed groups to break our laws. He allowed Native gangs of hoods to terrorize some of the good people of Caledonia and squat on other peoples property. Am I mistaken that all citizens should be treated equally by Police , gang or not?

How about the Toronto Police during the Tamil demonstrations on University Ave ? People were cut off getting to hospitals,surgeries delayed, great inconvenience for all who had to travel that busy street. Yet anarchy was allowed,and the Police did nothing.If you and I as individuals tried to squat and terrorize a community or close down a busy street we would be arrested.Would we not? If we resisted we just might get a cuff or a tazer treatment. But anarchy it seems is to be tolerated as long as you have a big enough gang.

I have always been on the side of Police investigating themselves. I do have some questions now and look forward to more discussion on this subject.

[MysTerri]

To my mind, that incident is a reason to not have public investigations of the police. There was a a lot of second-guessing in the reporting.

The police wrote the report. Yes it had everyone second guessing the cops, especially when viewed with the video footage, not to mention how their testimony in court had changed from the original statements given by the officers in the investigation.

[MysTerri]

But anarchy it seems is to be tolerated as long as you have a big enough gang.

I have always been on the side of Police investigating themselves. I do have some questions now and look forward to more discussion on this subject.

Anarchy that is tolerated is called democracy when you have a big enough gang.

[M.Dancer]

not to mention how their testimony in court

They never testified in court. They appeared at a public inquiry

[eyeball]

To my mind, that incident is a reason to not have public investigations of the police. There was a a lot of second-guessing in the reporting.

All the more reason for third party audits of SIU investigators. These auditors would report to the public which is not the same thing as a public investigation.

[eyeball]

And the persons most qualified to carry out such investigations would in all likelihood be retired police officers.

Municipal departments in BC almost always hand over investigations involving their members to other departments. Recent cases have shown that those other departments have not been reluctant to recommend charges when warranted.

Great. Honest participants makes auditing that much easier. This still doesn't eliminate the need for third party auditing of SIU's though.

A problem has been the RCMP which has historically refused to let other departments investigate its members. The continual erosion of public confidence in the RCMP is finally starting to sink in with its hierarchy and this is starting to change.

I suspect this has more to do with the RCMP's political bosses, another group that have historically resisted attempts to investigate it's members. The erosion of public confidence in the RCMP is just the tip of the iceberg. Given the arguments that people who typically rush to the defense of the authorities and the state use, I doubt the need for better institutions of accountability throughout our government is sinking in. They can probably rest easy - I doubt things will be changing anytime soon.

[Wilber]

Great. Honest participants makes auditing that much easier. This still doesn't eliminate the need for third party auditing of SIU's though.

I suspect this has more to do with the RCMP's political bosses, another group that have historically resisted attempts to investigate it's members. The erosion of public confidence in the RCMP is just the tip of the iceberg. Given the arguments that people who typically rush to the defense of the authorities and the state use, I doubt the need for better institutions of accountability throughout our government is sinking in. They can probably rest easy - I doubt things will be changing anytime soon.

Depends on what you want to call a third party. Another independent police force is a third party.

It's not the political bosses of the RCMP, it's the culture. Other police departments have come to realize that it is not good for their credibility to investigate themselves and they are also accountable to local government and citizens. The RCMP have been slow learners. Why? Because they could. They are not accountable to local government or the local citizenry like municipal forces, only a headquarters in Ottawa. Personally, I don't believe the RCMP should be involved in community policing, not because there is anything inherently bad about them but for the reasons stated.

[Oleg Bach]

We all have a choice..to be lawful or unlawful. The rules are the rules right or wrong. Just as the legalist say - It might be immoral but it is legal..now the real question is, do we want judical reform where things that are bad are illegal and things that are good are legal? OR do we want a system of corruption and harrassment that serves a few well washed gangsters..who's only power is police?

The only thought to be relished here is the idea that cops do not like their masters but do adore and care about the public..make friends with law enforcers..and by doing so undermine the crimminals that abuse force of law.

[Muddy]

Anarchy that is tolerated is called democracy when you have a big enough gang.

Yep! Two or three thugs,one old guy on a dark street all alone. Cops look the other way while old guy gets mugged. Democracy in action?

From a youngster I was told to look up to police. Fantino has let that image down in my estimation.I am sure he was following orders from our political masters. But! I think Fantino should have done the honourable thing and resigned. What a clear message that would have sent.

[Oleg Bach]

Yep! Two or three thugs,one old guy on a dark street all alone. Cops look the other way while old guy gets mugged. Democracy in action?

From a youngster I was told to look up to police. Fantino has let that image down in my estimation.I am sure he was following orders from our political masters. But! I think Fantino should have done the honourable thing and resigned. What a clear message that would have sent.

Alledgedly on the street level from the bygone era...Fantino would bust a pot dealer for six pounds and only two would show up in the evidence room- maybe he was never honest - alledgedly.

[Oleg Bach]

In the over view - people with good intentions become cops..with the supposed increase of bad behavior perhaps a lot of them are taking phama product that produces a bad cop..dope is dope - prescribed or not...just a thought.

[Muddy]

well we might be a tad over zelous here. I know some very dedicated Cops. Honest ,good folks and I am very proud to be called friend. Frustration must be very taxing with the system when they risk life and limb capturing bad guys,seeing their victims, and then thug hits the revolving door.

[Oleg Bach]

well we might be a tad over zelous here. I know some very dedicated Cops. Honest ,good folks and I am very proud to be called friend. Frustration must be very taxing with the system when they risk life and limb capturing bad guys,seeing their victims, and then thug hits the revolving door.

The revolving door sort of reminds me of a group of pirates that release sharks into the lagoon to disempower and harrass the swimmers trying to enjoy life - I swear that the people that run the judicary are simply mean power crazed bastards..they use cops AND crimminals to harrass and control...what else could it be - It surely can not be a mistake after a mistake after mistake? SOME jerks must get a kick out of releasing lunitics in order to de-stablize society and make it easier to rule..I know of a fine woman that was knifed by a crazed Iranian immigrant - he had done a random stabbing two years prior - now they want to set the nut loose for the third time..what the hell is that?

[Muddy]

Liberal justice rum amok ! If I was a cop and knew this thug ,I don`t know if I could control myself from making sure he resisted arrest. Guess it was a good thing I was not a Cop.

[Oleg Bach]

Liberal justice rum amok ! If I was a cop and knew this thug ,I don`t know if I could control myself from making sure he resisted arrest. Guess it was a good thing I was not a Cop.

It was the lefty policy of atering mental health act...and granting full rights to people that harm others and themselves..There is one young crazy woman in my hood - she looks like she is about to die - she sleeps in a ditch...BUT - I really believe that liberals might to the dirty work and the road to hell is paved with good intentions--but old conservatives are in control..and they play all sides.

[bloodyminded]

I beg your pardon, I am a little old lady and I AM street wise. You give me less credit & respect than you do an officer who may have broken the law. THAT speaks volumes.

I agree.

[bloodyminded]

Liberal justice rum amok ! If I was a cop and knew this thug ,I don`t know if I could control myself from making sure he resisted arrest. Guess it was a good thing I was not a Cop.

Yes, thank the gods.

[eyeball]

Depends on what you want to call a third party. Another independent police force is a third party.

Where'd your 2nd party get to? As I see it you've got the officers being investigated - the 1st party, the SIU - the 2nd and then the auditors - the 3rd.

It's not the political bosses of the RCMP, it's the culture. Other police departments have come to realize that it is not good for their credibility to investigate themselves and they are also accountable to local government and citizens. The RCMP have been slow learners. Why? Because they could.

Yes but only because their bosses could. The propensity for corruption, secrecy with an intent to deceive, trickles down not up.

They are not accountable to local government or the local citizenry like municipal forces, only a headquarters in Ottawa. Personally, I don't believe the RCMP should be involved in community policing, not because there is anything inherently bad about them but for the reasons stated.

This is true of DFO, and many other sectors of society that should be governed by local/regional citizenry. This is a governance issue. Auditing the procedures and process followed by SIU's is a different matter.

[MysTerri]

They never testified in court. They appeared at a public inquiry

And what they said there did NOT match with what they said in the original investigation. Case closed on those guys. Too bad Monty the Mountie got away with it. He went on from there when he should have been stopped at Dziekanski.