Is it OK to insult Islam in Canada?

[Argus]

Shwa wasn't engaging in that:

Oh of course he was. Perhaps you didn't recognize it, being a fan of the same.

[Argus]

To be clear, I also believe that the Western way, i.e. separation of church and state, is superior but there's no point in being smug about that. We certainly had nothing to do with making it happen.

Oh? Who did? God?

[M.Dancer]

Oh? Who did? God?

Someone's great great grandparents...

[Argus]

Someone's great great grandparents...

Well the Left seems intent on wrapping us in guilt for the assumed wrongs of our ancestors. Shouldn't we get some credit for doing things right, as well?

[Argus]

Right. Moral equivalency.

But that isn't really the point is it? I wonder how many women in Canada and the US were murdered, beated or abused by their spouses on the suspicion of adultery.

It happens. It happens in the Muslim world, as well. Given the lack of value in that world one could assume women over there are beaten, perhaps to death, at a far heavier rate than in Western countries, as well.

But no one is talking about the illegal actions of individuals, but of the societal acceptance of such acts. The government doesn't murder women who have sex outside of marriage here. The government doesn't refuse to allow women to drive, or proclaim by law that their value is only a fraction that of men. And if there were anything in biblical law which stated that a woman, and her word, were only to be considered as a fraction of the value of a man, you wouldn't get half the population or more demanding such laws be put in place.

I really don't see how, when surveys hae repeatdly shown widespread public support in Muslim nations - sometimes by as much as 70 or 80% for Sharia law, you can suggest that laws which deny basic rights to women are really only due to a few fringe elements.

[Molly]

Well I don`t hardly think a turban can give the protection of a helmet...

I had to go find out what the CSA standards for motorcycle helmets were... and found out there aren't any.

What's more, BC helmet law is a mess. This site tells the story reasonably well:

http://www.bccom-bc.com/news_topics/may_29-06/Is-My-Helmet-Lega-full-version.pdf

I replied specifically to your comment, Muddy, rather than just generally to the chorus that seems to overestimate the merit of a unknown regulations, and underestimate the protective capacity of layers of fabric, because of this quotation:

"...a person who is wearing a device on his head

which consists of a hard outer shell, soft inner liner and which is affixed by a strap, then

that person will not face criminal sanctions. That has been the law in B.C. for 15 years..."

Edited April 14, 2010 by Molly

[Born Free]

Well the Left seems intent on wrapping us in guilt for the assumed wrongs of our ancestors. Shouldn't we get some credit for doing things right, as well?

Why must you invent nonsense like this?

Edited April 14, 2010 by Born Free

[M.Dancer]

Well the Left seems intent on wrapping us in guilt for the assumed wrongs of our ancestors. Shouldn't we get some credit for doing things right, as well?

Hey, I won't argue that our culture, that is, the culture of western civilization which includes nations like Japan etc, isn't far more advanced than most others....but we are only the inheritors...

[M.Dancer]

Why must you invent nonsense like this?

Have you ever read an Eye Ball post?

[Born Free]

Have you ever read an Eye Ball post?

I'll be sure to pay closer attention.

[Handsome Rob]

I had to go find out what the CSA standards for motorcycle helmets were... and found out there aren't any.

What's more, BC helmet law is a mess. This site tells the story reasonably well:

http://www.bccom-bc.com/news_topics/may_29-06/Is-My-Helmet-Lega-full-version.pdf

Ummm....?

Approved safety helmets - Deposited October 8, 1987

Anyways...way off topic.

[Shwa]

It happens. It happens in the Muslim world, as well. Given the lack of value in that world one could assume women over there are beaten, perhaps to death, at a far heavier rate than in Western countries, as well.

Have a little glance and tell me if you still hold the same opinion.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=16197&view=findpost&p=531122

But no one is talking about the illegal actions of individuals, but of the societal acceptance of such acts. The government doesn't murder women who have sex outside of marriage here. The government doesn't refuse to allow women to drive, or proclaim by law that their value is only a fraction that of men. And if there were anything in biblical law which stated that a woman, and her word, were only to be considered as a fraction of the value of a man, you wouldn't get half the population or more demanding such laws be put in place.

Be specific. What government or governments are you talking about?

I really don't see how, when surveys hae repeatdly shown widespread public support in Muslim nations - sometimes by as much as 70 or 80% for Sharia law, you can suggest that laws which deny basic rights to women are really only due to a few fringe elements.

Right. Let's talk about "basic rights to women" and use the phrase "should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood." (http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/)

Argus, I know what you are saying and I am just as grossed out and appalled at some of the treatment of some women in some Islamic ruled countries by some crazies claiming the right through some little clause in their religion.

But the sheer level of violence towards women on this continent after a few decades of the recent "womens rights movement" still leaves plenty to be desired - especially by the women and children who face the brunt of the nasty side of our societal character. We are not talking about a little bit of a difference between 'us and them,' we are talking a significant difference. And while, in some Islamic countries, some levels of violence or violation may be condoned by the present government, some women on this continent cannot enjoy the lofty rights bestowed on them by the mighty words of our declarations because they are too busy recovering from the latest beating, the latest sexual assault or rape, the latest death threat or death threat to their children, etc. ad nauseum.

Oh, well, freedom has a cost now doesn't it? But hypocrisy is always free.

[Argus]

Have a little glance and tell me if you still hold the same opinion.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=16197&view=findpost&p=531122

Oh come on. Get serious. You cannot possibly compare crime statistics, especially those involving women and violence, between western nations and nations which don't even consider marital assaults to be criminal acts. The fact reported rapes are higher in Canada than in places where women would NEVER report such a thing is utterly irrelevent. There are countries in the world, particularly in the Muslim world, where a raped woman or girl would be disowned by her family, would face no chance for marriage, or would even be killed by her family or imprisoned by the government. And you are amazed reported rapes are higher in Canada? Bride burning is still rampant in India. Is that reflected in the stats? Pretty damned unlikely given most such murders are passed off as accidents, often with the collusion of an extremely corrupt police force.

In this country, if a man even shoves his wife he must be arrested. In most third world countries no one would dream of arresting a man who beat his wife unconscious every other night. And in societies where girls are shoved back into burning buildings by the police because their faces are uncovered, do you really think a woman who gets punched out by hubby is going to summon the police? remember that by law a woman's word is worth less than a man in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, and other countries which practice in whole or in part, Sharia law.

But the sheer level of violence towards women on this continent after a few decades of the recent "womens rights movement" still leaves plenty to be desired -

Any violence is unaceptable, but the level of violence is pretty heavily exaggerated. I've seen a number of the reports on it and when you get past the big red numbers into definitions you find that the people behind the studies - usually womens rights activists - have pretty broadly defined the term "violence" to include everything down to and including being shouted at. If you use the same terms and definitions for men you'd find that violence against men is much worse. Has anyone ever asked a man whether or not he'd ever been the victim of violence? Of course not! We all have.

[M.Dancer]

Have a little glance and tell me if you still hold the same opinion.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index.php?showtopic=16197&view=findpost&p=531122

There is nothing in those stats about domestic violence.

But....

[edit] Incidence of domestic violence among Muslims

Domestic violence is considered by many to be a problem in Muslim-majority cultures.[24]

The incidence in many Muslim-majority countries (where women hide their bruises and little is ever reported to authorities) is uncertain, but believed to be great by Muslim feminists. In some Muslim countries, such as Saudi Arabia,[25] reports indicate that domestic violence is quite widespread. One recent study, in Syria, found that 25% of the married women surveyed said that they had been beaten by their husbands.[26]

One study found that half of Palestinian women have been the victims of domestic violence.[27] A WHO study in Babol found that within the previous year 15.0% of wives had been physically abused, 42.4% had been sexually abused and 81.5% had been psychologically abused (to various degrees) by their husbands, blaming low income, young age, unemployment and low education.[28]

A 1987 study conducted by the Women's Division and another study by the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan in 1996 suggested that domestic violence takes place in approximately 80 percent of the households in the country.[29][30][31] In Pakistan, domestic violence occurs in forms of beatings, sexual violence or torture, mutilation, acid attacks and burning the victim alive (bride burning).[32]

According to the Pakistan Institute of Medical Sciences in 2002, over 90% of married women surveyed in that country reported being kicked, slapped, beaten or sexually abused when husbands were dissatisfied by their cooking or cleaning, or when the women had ‘failed’ to bear a child or had given birth to a girl instead of a boy.[33]

The prevalence of domestic violence has been cited as a cause of high rates of suicide, mostly through self-immolation, among Kurdish women in Iran.[34]

The relationship between Islam and domestic violence is disputed. There is still, among Islamic scholars, a debate about whether there are occasions on which a man beating a woman is appropriate. These ideas are justified with reference to the Qur'an, especially An-Nisa, 34, which discusses forms of beating in certain circumstances. Many of the scholars allowing "beating" stress that it is a last resort, discountenanced, and must be done so as not to cause serious injury.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#Incidence_of_domestic_violence_among_Muslims

Argus, I know what you are saying and I am just as grossed out and appalled at some of the treatment of some women in some Islamic ruled countries by some crazies claiming the right through some little clause in their religion.

But the sheer level of violence towards women on this continent after a few decades of the recent "womens rights movement" still leaves plenty to be desired -

Of course it leaves pleanty to be desired....but the sheer numbers in Pakistan (90%) blow ours away, by capita and in total.

[Molly]

Ummm....?

Approved safety helmets - Deposited October 8, 1987

Anyways...way off topic.

Yup. A million miles off-topic, particularly since Sikhism and Islam are two entirely different religious groups.

However.. 'approved'=/= 'CSA approved'. CSA does not test motorcycle helmets, and has no standard for them. Various provinces pick and choose whatever standards appeal to them-- out of the air.

[Shwa]

Oh come on. Get serious. You cannot possibly compare crime statistics, especially those involving women and violence, between western nations and nations which don't even consider marital assaults to be criminal acts. The fact reported rapes are higher in Canada than in places where women would NEVER report such a thing is utterly irrelevent. There are countries in the world, particularly in the Muslim world, where a raped woman or girl would be disowned by her family, would face no chance for marriage, or would even be killed by her family or imprisoned by the government. And you are amazed reported rapes are higher in Canada? Bride burning is still rampant in India. Is that reflected in the stats? Pretty damned unlikely given most such murders are passed off as accidents, often with the collusion of an extremely corrupt police force.

Prove your contention with statistics or some form of acceptable data like M. Dancer has below. All you are doing is giving your opinion which is more or less worthless.

In this country, if a man even shoves his wife he must be arrested. In most third world countries no one would dream of arresting a man who beat his wife unconscious every other night. And in societies where girls are shoved back into burning buildings by the police because their faces are uncovered, do you really think a woman who gets punched out by hubby is going to summon the police? remember that by law a woman's word is worth less than a man in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Sudan, and other countries which practice in whole or in part, Sharia law.

Maximizing and minimizing. Point out in Sharia law where beating one's wife is acceptable, where her reporting abuse is unacceptable, unvalued or ignored. Please provide a link in English.

Any violence is unaceptable, but the level of violence is pretty heavily exaggerated. I've seen a number of the reports on it and when you get past the big red numbers into definitions you find that the people behind the studies - usually womens rights activists - have pretty broadly defined the term "violence" to include everything down to and including being shouted at. If you use the same terms and definitions for men you'd find that violence against men is much worse. Has anyone ever asked a man whether or not he'd ever been the victim of violence? Of course not! We all have.

Come on Argus, even for someone you making a statement like this is rather gutless. See M Dancer below for his use of "womans rights activists" data to compile a pretty ugly picture of domestic violence in Pakistan. Which is it? Do you accept the statistics or do you have some of your own that can back up your opinion?

[M.Dancer]

ame='Argus' date='15 April 2010 - 09:55 AM' timestamp='1271338073' post='531645']

Point out in Sharia law where beating one's wife is acceptable

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#Treatment_of_domestic_violence_in_the_Qur.27an

[Shwa]

There is nothing in those stats about domestic violence.

But....

Of course it leaves pleanty to be desired....but the sheer numbers in Pakistan (90%) blow ours away, by capita and in total.

See? Now you are getting at something worth while by being specific and I would agree that violence against women in Pakistan is out of control. But there is a huge difference between Pakistan and Islamic "culture" or Islamic countries and so on.

As for domestic violence, here is an interesting link. But be careful the data was likely compiled by "womens rights activists" and according to Argus, it is unreliable and "pretty heavily exaggerated."

Violence Facts - Canadian Women's Foundation

Some interesting facts:

Half of Canadian women (51%) have experienced at least one incident of physical or sexual violence since the age of 16.

Every minute of every day, a Canadian woman or child is being sexually assaulted.

One to two women are murdered by a current or former partner each week in Canada.

Spousal violence makes up the single largest category of convictions involving violent offences in non-specialized adult courts in Canada over the five-year period 1997/98 to 2001/02. Over 90% of offenders were male.

Thirty-six percent of female victims of spousal violence and less than 10% of victims of sexual assault reported these crimes to the police in 2004.

Physical and sexual abuse costs Canada over $4 billion each year (factoring into account ocial services, criminal justice, lost employment days and health care interventions).

But I wouldn't bother with any of this because it is much worse in Pakistan and some other Muslim countries. They aren't "up" to our "standards" yet.

[Shwa]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_domestic_violence#Treatment_of_domestic_violence_in_the_Qur.27an

Brutal!

[Argus]

Come on Argus, even for someone you making a statement like this is rather gutless. See M Dancer below for his use of "womans rights activists" data to compile a pretty ugly picture of domestic violence in Pakistan. Which is it? Do you accept the statistics or do you have some of your own that can back up your opinion?

First, you haven't posted any statistics which have the slightest relevance or value. Nor do I need "proof" to suggest that studies comparing the reported rate of domestic violence in the West with the reported rate of violence in Islamic countries, where such things would rarely, if ever be reported is sheerest idiocy.

I'm not in the habit of showing citations to prove water is wet. There is such a thing as common knowledge anyone who has much familiarity with the world is aware of. If you're suggesting you are entirely ignorant of everything to do with the topic at hand (which, from your postings I believe) then you really shouldn't be posting anything on it.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Argus

[Shwa]

First, you haven't posted any statistics which have the slightest relevance or value. Nor do I need "proof" to suggest that studies comparing the reported rate of domestic violence in the West with the reported rate of violence in Islamic countries, where such things would rarely, if ever be reported is sheerest idiocy.

I'm not in the habit of showing citations to prove water is wet. There is such a thing as common knowledge anyone who has much familiarity with the world is aware of. If you're suggesting you are entirely ignorant of everything to do with the topic at hand (which, from your postings I believe) then you really shouldn't be posting anything on it.

[Michael Hardner]

Oh of course he was. Perhaps you didn't recognize it, being a fan of the same.

You have no basis for saying that I'm a 'fan' of moral equivalency, whatever that means.

[Michael Hardner]

Oh? Who did? God?

The people who fought for it at that time. Maybe Thomas Jefferson ? Rousseau ?

I don't believe that we as individuals get to take credit for what our culture established hundreds of years ago, especially those aspects of our culture that came from America and which Canadians actually helped fight against.

[Michael Hardner]

Well the Left seems intent on wrapping us in guilt for the assumed wrongs of our ancestors. Shouldn't we get some credit for doing things right, as well?

That's ridiculous. Nobody should feel guilty for what happened hundreds of years ago. There is a difference between being guilty and being responsible. If my grandfather stole something years ago, and passed it on to me without my knowledge I have no reason to feel guilty. Once I find out that this was the case, however, I have responsibility to return the object.

[Michael Hardner]

Hey, I won't argue that our culture, that is, the culture of western civilization which includes nations like Japan etc, isn't far more advanced than most others....but we are only the inheritors...

Exactly. If we want to be worthy of those ancestors, and hold ourselves to their standard then it's our duty to work to improve our lot, rather than take credit for their achievements.

For us, the job is to work to continue to improve our economy, to continue to make government work for us, as it has done, and to make immigration work for all of our benefit.