Guergis Resigns from Cabinet - RCMP Investigation into Alleged Miscond

[scribblet]

PM's should dump a cabinet minister just as soon as the minister does stupid things in the public eye. Guergis and her minions did a bunch of very stupid things.

Jaffer was dumped, long before this came up, they refused to sign his nomination papers the last time. Up until now Guergis had done nothing except have a hissy fit at the airport.

This really does affirm belief in the cockroach theory - if you see one you will start seeing more and more things that may or may not have happened, truthful or otherwise. Even if Guergis is completely cleared, some of the mud will stick, she has allready been found guilty, so far with no evidence. The Toronto Star of course is pushing it's agenda even though they have no evidence to back up any of their claims.

[DrGreenthumb]

Even I like Joe Clark. Too bad he wouldn't return ro run the CPC. He'd toss all the bigots out of there in a hurry.

[Wild Bill]

I dont blame you and the Reformers/Alliance/Progressive Conservatives for eventually wanting to distance yourself from Mulroney. The stench of it all must have been unbearable for you....

Eventually? Either you are too young to remember or you never paid attention!

Mulroney was one of the major causes of the Reform Party's very formation! He was a huge disappointment, especially to the West. Manning and others were originally Tory party members and had tried futilely to change the Tories from within. The PCs were just as "top-down" as the Liberals. It was "Please bang in those campaign signs, give money and do all the grunt work! In between, you can sit on internal committees to develop party policies that will be totally non-binding and forever ignored!"

The awarding of the F-18 maintenance contract to Quebec when the cheaper bid came from a Winnipeg company with more experience and better expertise was the final straw.

The bad blood between Reform and the PCs was so thick it might as well have been granite! That's why it was only when the PCs finally realized that they were NEVER going to have a comeback and were doomed forever to a few seats in the Maritimes that the parties reunited.

The irony is that now for practical purposes the Mulroney Tories seem to be in charge! The tiny PC rump appears to be totally in control. In terms of real actions, today's CPC shows little or no resemblance to the old Reform Party. If anything, it acts like a clone of Mulroney's old party!

I keep saying it but it bears repeating. Why did Manning (and several million citizens) ever bother? Once again we have a sizable chunk of the electorate that votes Tory only for lack of anything better. If someone else came out of the wilderness and offered these folks a choice they actually LIKED Harper would lose them all virtually overnight.

That must be Ignatieff's biggest wet dream! Sadly, it would seem he would prefer to split his opponent's support more than actually attracting it to his own party...

[Dave_ON]

Jaffer was dumped, long before this came up, they refused to sign his nomination papers the last time. Up until now Guergis had done nothing except have a hissy fit at the airport.

This really does affirm belief in the cockroach theory - if you see one you will start seeing more and more things that may or may not have happened, truthful or otherwise. Even if Guergis is completely cleared, some of the mud will stick, she has allready been found guilty, so far with no evidence. The Toronto Star of course is pushing it's agenda even though they have no evidence to back up any of their claims.

The PMO disagrees with you apparently...

PMO spokesman Dimitri Soudas said Harper immediately turned over the "serious and credible allegations" against Guergis to the RCMP and the ethics commissioner once he learned of them. He also said Guergis was told of the allegations against her last Friday.

"serious and credible allegations" sounds like the PMO and the CPC were fairly confident there was sufficient evidence to get the RCMP and Ethics commission involved.

Now I know you're a die hard CPC fan boy but surely even you can't deny that there is something seriously wrong with situation.

[Sir Bandelot]

The PMO disagrees with you apparently...

"serious and credible allegations" sounds like the PMO and the CPC were fairly confident there was sufficient evidence to get the RCMP and Ethics commission involved.

Now I know you're a die hard CPC fan boy but surely even you can't deny that there is something seriously wrong with situation.

Scribblet, Argus and other CPC partisans find the whole ugly story hard to swallow. I admire Harper to a point on some if his things, and he would not normally concede to outside pressures or baseless allegations from the media or opposition. Something convinced him this was credible and serious, for him to make the move he did.

That's why i say, despite the disbelief and silence coming from the partisans, it is HARPER who condemned them without a trial.

CPC'ers must now choke on the bitter bread of the King's own veracity... No papa! No papa!

[Argus]

Save that they ran a foul of drugs while still a member of the CPC.

So? That's certainly a scandal but it's not corruption.

And are you under the illusion there aren't at least a dozen more MPs out there from all parties who use coke?

[Argus]

Aye. Clark is one of the very few still kicking around who one could, without embarrassment, refer to as a statesman.

And a clown who invaraiably chose exactly the wrong political move to make in almost every key situation.

[Argus]

BALONEY!!! Your stance on crime is hypocritical.

Just read your post.. your "identical" diverges into a rant against the Liberals. Your poolitical bias is so overwhelming that you cannot have an identicals stance of crime.

If you can find me a single situation where I changed my toon on anything related to crime - or anything else, really - because of political party, feel free. Regardless of your imaginative interpretation of my positions I am consistent in what I write.

[Argus]

I dont blame you and the Reformers/Alliance/Progressive Conservatives for eventually wanting to distance yourself from Mulroney. The stench of it all must have been unbearable for you....

Whatever floats yer boat. I abandoned the PCs because of Mulroney, and of course, as soon as an alternative presented itself I supported them. I never even considered the PCs any kind of alterantive thereafter.

[Dave_ON]

So? That's certainly a scandal but it's not corruption.

And are you under the illusion there aren't at least a dozen more MPs out there from all parties who use coke?

Nor did I state or otherwise imply it was "corruption", well moral corruption notwithstanding of course. Anyway that's beside the point, I was merely stating they were not "former members" when the incident occurred. "We're no worse than the other guy" is hardly a motto one should live by.

[Argus]

Even I like Joe Clark. Too bad he wouldn't return ro run the CPC. He'd toss all the bigots out of there in a hurry.

You don't get it, do you? Joe Clark was no more any kind of conservative than David Orchard. He was a symbol of the fact that the "progressives" had completely removed all the "conservatives" from that party, and he and his kind were the reason why Reform sprang up. You can't have a conservative party run by someone who is extremely liberal in all his beliefs, not and have it be succesful.

[ToadBrother]

I keep saying it but it bears repeating. Why did Manning (and several million citizens) ever bother? Once again we have a sizable chunk of the electorate that votes Tory only for lack of anything better. If someone else came out of the wilderness and offered these folks a choice they actually LIKED Harper would lose them all virtually overnight.

Reform could not form a majority government, and worse, was simply guaranteeing Chretien constant majorities, despite what ought to have been a fatal cancer in Quebec called the Bloc Quebecois. Old Reformers like to tell fanciful stories about how they were one election away from taking Ontario, but the truth is they weren't.

The harsh reality is that most Canadians are centrists, not right wingers, and Reform was too firmly seated on the right side of things. Rightly or wrongly it was tarred by the social extremists, particular in Alberta, but cropping up everywhere.

It's the fundamental problem of all such grassroots movements that they never ever survive their own successes. Manning's style of egalitarian leadership just couldn't be sustained in the House of Commons. Maybe if he had been faced with a relatively weak player like a Paul Martin or a Joe Clark, Manning might have been able to cross the Rubicon, but he wasn't. He was faced with Chretien, a streetfigher style of politician, tough as nails, had been Ottawa for two decades and knew every trick in the book, and had a few of his own. Manning, the idealist, was no match for Chretien's realpolitik.

Harper is very much a Prime Minister in the Trudeau-Mulroney-Chretien mould, as I said in another post. He's autocratic, arrogant, willing to sacrifice just about anything in the obtaining and maintenance of power. This is the kind of guy who gets to be PM, not idealists like Manning.

[Argus]

Scribblet, Argus and other CPC partisans find the whole ugly story hard to swallow.

As I've said, there hasn't been a single person posting here excusing Jaffer. And no one but a babe would be surprised that a hard living coke addict's wife might snort up at times too.

The fact we don't consider it a huge deal is pretty much consistant with how we'd feel if we heard an electrician or doctor or lawyer was accused of doing coke. Quelle surprise? It happens, unfortunately.

You seem to believe we ought to be as filled with joy and glee as you and the others on the left of the spectrum, giggling and squealing like little girls as you repeat, with wide, excited eyes, every single detail back and forth to each other again and again and again.

I find their downfall sad, actually, pathetic, given what they had. It was stupid and weak, and yes, even hypocritical of them to indulge themselves like that, but unfortunately, young, arrogant, well-heeled couples in this country are often self-indulgent.

But the behaviour of the opposition and their supporters on this issue is, if anything, more sordid and contemptable. The combined opposition have taken a page from the papparazi playbook, and are frantic in their desperation to come up with more and more breathless suggestions and innuendo about what Jaffar and Guergis did. Instead of Liberals, NDP and BQ in the House it's like they're the reporters for the Enquirer, Examiner and Star - well, except for the righteous indignation they all seem to be exhibiting when they ask questions they know beforehand cannot possibly be answered.

[Argus]

The harsh reality is that most Canadians are centrists, not right wingers, and Reform was too firmly seated on the right side of things. Rightly or wrongly it was tarred by the social extremists, particular in Alberta, but cropping up everywhere.

It wasn't that Reform had policies which were too right wing. Harris got in in Ontario with overwhelming support, and was re-elected again to a second big majority. Conservative politics certainly can play in Ontario, and play well.

But Reform was tarnished by repeated accusations of bigotry and intolerance. There never was more than a smattering of such people, probably no more than you'd find in the old PCs or the Liberals. But any Reformer, MP, candidate previous candidate, party worker, relative, anyone at all associated with the party who said or did anything controversial would give the media an excuse to throw blaring headlines up trumpeting their "extremism". Still, the repeated accusations by the Liberals and NDP, and of a salivating, left wing media, certainly had their effect in tarring them with that brush.

[Born Free]

Jaffer was dumped, long before this came up, they refused to sign his nomination papers the last time. Up until now Guergis had done nothing except have a hissy fit at the airport.

Government ministers shouldnt do hissy fits in public and have their staffers write phony letters to the newspapers. Hissy fits at the home dinner table are OK by me.

[ToadBrother]

It wasn't that Reform had policies which were too right wing. Harris got in in Ontario with overwhelming support, and was re-elected again to a second big majority. Conservative politics certainly can play in Ontario, and play well.

Harris didn't have to contend with loud mouths like Randy White, who probably did more to scuttle Reform than any other person. For some reason (maybe he knew where some other Reformers had buried the bodies) the guy kept getting a key jobs, where his combination of zeal and stupidity made him a perenial favorite with Chretien's Liberals.

But Reform was tarnished by repeated accusations of bigotry and intolerance. There never was more than a smattering of such people, probably no more than you'd find in the old PCs or the Liberals. But any Reformer, MP, candidate previous candidate, party worker, relative, anyone at all associated with the party who said or did anything controversial would give the media an excuse to throw blaring headlines up trumpeting their "extremism". Still, the repeated accusations by the Liberals and NDP, and of a salivating, left wing media, certainly had their effect in tarring them with that brush.

Failing parties always blame the media. I recall the final days of the BC NDP government where my mother-in-law, a fire and brimstone style socialist blamed the right-wing media. On the other side was a guy I worked for who was (and still is) a dyed-in-the-wool Reformer who, like you, blamed the left-wing media for the party's failings. What it taught me is that losers blame the press. The press doesn't give a crap about left wing or right wing, conservatism, centrism or socialism, what it wants is juicy news items, things to sell newspapers and the race for which 6 o'clock news broadcast folks turn on. You don't sell papers by saying "And in other news, a lone nutbar in the Reform caucus said some stupid things", you sell papers by saying "Reform MPs say racist stupid things again!!!" I mean, look how the media sharks turned on Paul Martin. The press acted like a pack of sadistic psychopaths crushing a kitten, and Martin, like Manning, simply didn't know how to manage the message sufficiently to overcome it. What we learned is that a lot of Martin's strengths were in fact Chretien's, and as long as Martin was shielded by Chretien's talents and force of character, Martin was a potent force, but on his own, Martin was the lamest of ducks.

Edited April 15, 2010 by ToadBrother

[Born Free]

Eventually? Either you are too young to remember or you never paid attention!

Mulroney was one of the major causes of the Reform Party's very formation!

Good try but yer wrong.

[Born Free]

And a clown who invaraiably chose exactly the wrong political move to make in almost every key situation.

Says you....

[Born Free]

Whatever floats yer boat. I abandoned the PCs because of Mulroney, and of course, as soon as an alternative presented itself I supported them. I never even considered the PCs any kind of alterantive thereafter.

Like most hypocrits are want to do, you villify the left as a matter of habit while choosing to pretend that the right has no track record with respect to its choosing to occasionally take the low ground.

Edited April 15, 2010 by Born Free

[scribblet]

The Globe and Mail did agree in a recent editorial, that the PM was right to do what did and it's up to the RCMP to provide info; and that Jack Layton, is off-base.

At the least this issue important because we are now being treated to a glaring view of the nature of the media in Canada, particularly the CBC and the Star et al. Intellectually we know this, but this Jaffer issue has given us a much clearer image of just how ugly these 'ournalists' are.

Let's face it, the media in Canada is by and large a mouthpiece for liberalism, although I do think that Canadians, in general, are starting to see through all their smoke and mirrors.

These media owners to have a right to editorialize but how about they allow the RCMP to conduct an honest and thorough police investigation then report the actual results? Reporting on the latest unverified rumours is not journalism.

[BubberMiley]

Reporting on the latest unverified rumours is not journalism.

I'm sure you were equally critical of "unverified rumours" from the "liberal media" during Adscam.

[jbg]

You must be very young and feel compelled to want to start another bar fight that you wont win.

1. I usually win my bar fights (link); and
   
2. If you didn't say that Chretien preceded Mulroney as PM your skills as a grammartician are sorely lacking.
   

For your information, I am 53 years old and a well-respected attorney who financially does moderately, not excessively well.

[Born Free]

Let's face it, the media in Canada is by and large a mouthpiece for liberalism, although I do think that Canadians, in general, are starting to see through all their smoke and mirrors.

Oh God! here we go again....

[Born Free]

For your information, I am 53 years old and a well-respected attorney who financially does moderately, not excessively well.

Well perhaps you should stop being a troll and start acting the part for a change...

[Topaz]

I think the media should lay off for a short time and concentrate more on the Afghan issues.