Wikileaks video of combat in Iraq

[M.Dancer]

Those 'weapons' they carry seem to be quite small for RPG launchers.

An RPG without the shell is between 37 inches and 25 inches long (different varients). From the distance they were looking at (in the Apache) I doubt they could tell the difference bewteen 37 inches and 33 inches...never the less, one was recovered.

Edited April 9, 2010 by M.Dancer

[Army Guy]

A soldier is trained to keep that all in check, correct?

Here's the thing, training can only go so far, in training you know unless something goes very very wrong your going to live to see the next day....in combat after you see the effects of some of the wpns we use...it sinks in very quickly that this is for real....and everyone reacts very differently,...so to mask it soldiers put on this bravdo act.. in this case talk like some unprofessional newbie....and it works for some...but i want to add someone may be cool calm and collected in combat one day, and a total zombie the next...it depends on how much the mind can take before it says enough.....

[GostHacked]

An RPG without the shell is between 37 inches and 25 inches long (different varients). From the distance they were looking at (in the Apache) I doubt they could tell the difference bewteen 37 inches and 33 inches...never the less, one was recovered.

No, you can clearly see the RPG in the video being carried by the one guy,(next to the guy with the AK) the pilots recognized and identified the RPG correctly. But the other two who were carrying shoulder bags clearly did not have RPGs on them. Because the RPG in the one guys hands looked to be about as tall as he was. There are no cameras in the field that are more than 2 feet long (as far as I know) So to me it should not be that hard to properly identify an RPG from a shoulder mounted camera. Then again, I will claim ignorance on how things are identified.

[M.Dancer]

So to me it should not be that hard to properly identify an RPG from a shoulder mounted camera. Then again, I will claim ignorance on how things are identified.

You misundertand me. They saw and ID'ed the RPG...but other things, like tripods carried in a sling could also be mis Id'ed as an RPG....but once you have seen and ID'ed the AK-47 and the RPG...other things like a camera with a telephoto lens could be mistaken for a submachine gun or even a 25 inch RPG launcher.

I have no probelm with the attack. They attacked insurgents, the journalists were with the insurgents and shells being fired a KM away don't discriminate.

[bush_cheney2004]

....I have no probelm with the attack. They attacked insurgents, the journalists were with the insurgents and shells being fired a KM away don't discriminate.

Right...it's a no brainer for those on scene. Engage and terminate the threat.

Somebody jumped on this guncam video as slam dunk evidence of US "cowboys" murdering innocent civilians (again) only to have it blow back in their faces. Hell, 9/11 Loose Change producers did a better job than this when it comes to cocking up the "facts".

US military forces are trained to kill and break things with controlled violence. Close air support has been a mainstay since WW2. Without any doubt the tactical footprint has gotten more precise over the years, but is not perfect, nor will it ever be.

[GostHacked]

M Dancer.

Well I agreed that there were weapons, and that the reporters were at the wrong place, wrong time.

http://www.truthout.org/iraq-war-vet-we-were-told-just-shoot-people-and-officers-would-take-care-us58378

This article eludes to the fact that this is not a one off thing. Take it as you will.

[bush_cheney2004]

...This article eludes to the fact that this is not a one off thing. Take it as you will.

Right...it is not a one off thing. Hasn't been for a very long time. US forces' precision and lethality are way up while mortality is down. Pick your own cliche, but a good defense is a very strong offense.

"Permission to Fire" unleashes the gods of applied physics and chemistry.

[GostHacked]

Right...it is not a one off thing. Hasn't been for a very long time. US forces' precision and lethality are way up while mortality is down. Pick your own cliche, but a good defense is a very strong offense.

"Permission to Fire" unleashes the gods of applied physics and chemistry.

So what do you think of the allegations in the article that US soldiers placing items on dead bodies after the attack to male it look like they were actually insurgents?

[bush_cheney2004]

So what do you think of the allegations in the article that US soldiers placing items on dead bodies after the attack to male it look like they were actually insurgents?

Some are true while others are false. Domestic police departments engage in the same kind of behaviour (sometimes). The difference here is that "Iraq" or "Afghanistan" are a lot more politicized in the context of "war", but the actions of the combatants are routine human responses to combat, stress, and policies designed to avoid flying back home in a casualty container.

[GostHacked]

Some are true while others are false. Domestic police departments engage in the same kind of behaviour (sometimes). The difference here is that "Iraq" or "Afghanistan" are a lot more politicized in the context of "war", but the actions of the combatants are routine human responses to combat, stress, and policies designed to avoid flying back home in a casualty container.

Sounds like an apologetic excuse for the status-quot or the fact that it does happen. Does it make it right? No. How does the soldier deal with the fact he just smoked some innocent civilians? But that is never talked about either. There is a toll on our soldiers for the orders they have been given. If my CO tells me to fire into the crowd willy nilly, then I do just that. Risk getting pulled from duty for not following orders. Risk living with the fact I may have killed civilians.

Either way the outcome for the soldier's mental state is not pretty. For the most part some might be better off dead. Now this is not to say I wish them dead, but they may wish they were dead based on killing civilians due to an order from a CO not even in the field.

[M.Dancer]

How does the soldier deal with the fact he just smoked some innocent civilians? But that is never talked about either.

It is talked about in great length. There is a substantial process involving investigations, counselling and reparations and sometimes penalties.

[bush_cheney2004]

Sounds like an apologetic excuse for the status-quot or the fact that it does happen. Does it make it right? No. How does the soldier deal with the fact he just smoked some innocent civilians? But that is never talked about either. There is a toll on our soldiers for the orders they have been given. If my CO tells me to fire into the crowd willy nilly, then I do just that. Risk getting pulled from duty for not following orders. Risk living with the fact I may have killed civilians.

No, that is not why they do it. Survival is dependent on a "Brothers in Arms" mentality and cohesiveness. The level of transgressions is directly proportional to the immediate risk. Police officers and firefighters experience this as well.

Either way the outcome for the soldier's mental state is not pretty. For the most part some might be better off dead. Now this is not to say I wish them dead, but they may wish they were dead based on killing civilians due to an order from a CO not even in the field.

An order to kill a civilian without any other context is an illegal order. But it's never that simple. Soldiers can and do commit murder within their own ranks. There is no one-size-fits-all profile or psychological response. Hell, it's not good for mental health to be killing the enemy all day either.

You (or I) cannot project or assume what would be best for such service members.

[naomiglover]

Do the people strolling around, chit chatting, with 2 military helicopters flying over them, really look like insurgents? get real.

We have US military personnel falling over themselves to make the snap judgment that the civilians are armed insurgents and that one of them, peeking round a corner, is carrying an RPG. All salivating and wanting to pull the trigger.

Just like most of you, I have not read the report released after US military's investigation, but the US military did release a statement after the incident which the New York Times published:

“According to the statement, American troops were conducting a raid when they were hit by small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. The American troops called in reinforcements and attack helicopters. In the ensuing fight, the statement said, the two Reuters employees and nine insurgents were killed.”

The video we have seen shows clearly that the above statement is fiction. Not one shot was fired from the men in the video and the man around the corner did not have an RPG as the US military personal in the helicopter wanted to suggest.

[M.Dancer]

Do the people strolling around, chit chatting, with 2 military helicopters flying over them, really look like insurgents? get real.

Why do you think the helicopters were overhead? ...oh...because you don't know what you are talking about....that's why.

We have US military personnel falling over themselves to make the snap judgment that the civilians are armed insurgents

And here we have a no nothing gel making a snap pronouncement that insurgents are civilans...

Just like most of you, I have not read the report released after US military's investigation

Speak for yourself.

The video we have seen shows clearly that the above statement is fiction. Not one shot was fired from the men in the video and the man around the corner did not have an RPG as the US military personal in the helicopter wanted to suggest.

1) Who cares if they didn't fire a shot. Shooting the enemy before they shot is the prefered method.

2) You didn't see the video I assume. The weaponds are visable. The army didn't say they were fired upon by this group (although they may have been earlier) but carrying RPGs and AK 47s means you are a lawful righteous target.

I am always amazed when someone willingly exposes how foolish they are...

[naomiglover]

Why do you think the helicopters were overhead? ...oh...because you don't know what you are talking about....that's why.

You don't think insurgents would hear and notice the helicopters flying over them? Would they be casually walking around chit chatting?

And here we have a no nothing gel making a snap pronouncement that insurgents are civilans...

Can you show me where it is proven that they were insurgents? I can show you where they were announced to be civilians.

Speak for yourself.

I will assume you're lying because you have lied about reading reports and investigations before.

Speaking of reading. Did you get around to reading the international court ruling in regards to East Jerusalem being Palestinian territory? Just a reminder: You failed in getting back to the topic and finishing the conversation.

1) Who cares if they didn't fire a shot. Shooting the enemy before they shot is the prefered method.

People who care about honesty might care. The US military's version of the event is different than what we saw in the video. The US military said that these people were attacking them. It is clear that this was a lie.

2) You didn't see the video I assume.

I saw the video.

The weaponds are visable.

weaponds? visable? Do you have fat fingers? One or two typos and mistakes are fine, but you've taken this to another level.

Besides the 1 guy who looks to have a gun, who else has one? Do you also consider cameras to be RPG's?

The army didn't say they were fired upon by this group

The army said:

The American troops called in reinforcements and attack helicopters. In the ensuing fight, the statement said, the two Reuters employees and nine insurgents were killed.

Unless if you are distant from reality and believe that shooting at people strolling on the ground from an apache helicopter, while not being fired at, a 'fight', then you are wrong. The army also said that they killed 9 insurgents. It turns out that they killed civilians.

but carrying RPGs and AK 47s means you are a lawful righteous target.

Really? Is this from the Dancer's fantasy rules of engagement book? Does this rule also apply to false statements such as the one made by the trigger happy, salivating young man who said: "Have five to six individuals with AK47s. Request permission to engage"?

I'm sorry that I keep bringing reality and honesty into the picture. But I'm sure that will not stop you from your continuous efforts to try to cover for obvious atrocities committed by the teams you are cheering for.

Edited April 9, 2010 by naomiglover

[Guest TrueMetis]

“According to the statement, American troops were conducting a raid when they were hit by small-arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades. The American troops called in reinforcements and attack helicopters. In the ensuing fight, the statement said, the two Reuters employees and nine insurgents were killed.”

The video we have seen shows clearly that the above statement is fiction. Not one shot was fired from the men in the video and the man around the corner did not have an RPG as the US military personal in the helicopter wanted to suggest.

What is fiction? The troops on the ground had been getting shot at and helicopters were dispatched to provide support. They identified people with weapons (they did have weapons everytime you deny it you look like a fool) who they though were the ones the fired on the ground troops. They looked like they were going to do it again so they killed the insurgents and it happened that there were some reporters with said insurgents. The fact that they didn't fire during the video was irrelevant as they had weapons and could have fired.

[naomiglover]

What is fiction? The troops on the ground had been getting shot at and helicopters were dispatched to provide support. They identified people with weapons (they did have weapons everytime you deny it you look like a fool) who they though were the ones the fired on the ground troops. They looked like they were going to do it again

Lie. They did not. Every time you make such an assertion in the face of video that we have all seen, you look like a liar.

so they killed the insurgents and it happened that there were some reporters with said insurgents. The fact that they didn't fire during the video was irrelevant as they had weapons and could have fired.

You keep missing the point. They were not insurgents.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Lie. They did not. Every time you make such an assertion in the face of video that we have all seen, you look like a liar.

Did not what, have weapons?

My link is that or is that not an RPG

You keep missing the point. They were not insurgents.

They had weapons and where close to U.S. ground troops if by some miracle it turns out they weren't insurgents it does not matter.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Really? Is this from the Dancer's fantasy rules of engagement book? Does this rule also apply to false statements such as the one made by the trigger happy, salivating young man who said: "Have five to six individuals with AK47s. Request permission to engage"?

How young was that "young man"? .....since you insist on being the only arbiter of "facts" in this discussion/

I'm sorry that I keep bringing reality and honesty into the picture. But I'm sure that will not stop you from your continuous efforts to try to cover for obvious atrocities committed by the teams you are cheering for.

Such a reality is your own...for some reason...you think the US military should parse things just like you do. I would cheer for the "teams" even without atrocities!

[bush_cheney2004]

...You keep missing the point. They were not insurgents.

They got promoted to insurgents right on the spot. Happy?

[naomiglover]

Did not what, have weapons?

They did not, as you said:

They looked like they were going to do it again

Stop lying.

Edited April 9, 2010 by naomiglover

[Guest TrueMetis]

They did not, as you said:

Are you freaking blind? Did you even look at the link? I don't think there is any point of arguing with you anymore it's obvious you want to blame the U.S. Military so much you aren't going to be reasonable.

[naomiglover]

They got promoted to insurgents right on the spot. Happy?

Why can't the rest of you stop hiding behind trying to cover-up a cover-up and just be honest like Bush Cheney and admit that you don't care for lawful and ethical behaviour that we champion ourselves to be the leaders of.

The moral compass of the soldier spraying the people on the ground with bullets is no different than the insurgents who cut off people's heads in front of the camera. The only difference is that they are lying to themselves in believing what they actually care for innocent people's lives.

[bush_cheney2004]

Why can't the rest of you stop hiding behind trying to cover-up a cover-up and just be honest like Bush Cheney and admit that you don't care for lawful and ethical behaviour that we champion ourselves to be the leaders of.

What do you think you do every day as a citizen of Canada (or USA)? Lawful and ethical behaviour is not for you to define, accuse, or convict the US military (or the IDF). We all know that you desperately seek a cause celebre no matter how uncertain be your example...anything will do if it bleeds.

The moral compass of the soldier spraying the people on the ground with bullets is no different than the insurgents who cut off people's heads in front of the camera. The only difference is that they are lying to themselves in believing what they actually care for innocent people's lives.

So who's "innocent" in this story.....you?

Edited April 10, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[GostHacked]

You don't think insurgents would hear and notice the helicopters flying over them? Would they be casually walking around chit chatting?

Do you know the range of the guns on an Apache?? And since it is Iraq, they would see these things all the time. I guess they did not think the Apache would fire this time.

I have my reservations about the event and what took place, but we clearly see an RPG and a couple AKs. The reporters were with the wrong group at the wrong time. The object that peered around the corner to me looked more like a camera, but they already saw weapons and when it looks like something is going to shoot at you ..... you need to make a life or death split-second decision.