Proposal to fix refugee system

[wyly]

Man I was going to say the same about you here too...It seemed like everyone was being reasonable and having a good discussion. You don't think the immigration system is borked and full of fraud?

[/quoteI'm always reasonable until I'm given cause not to be...

let's look at the offending post by mr Canada...

"Well I'm sorry but I don't support fraud as you do. Canada needs a reformed refugee system. Even immigrants know the system is broken. The only ones who wouldn't want it changed are the ignorant, the so called refugee support groups and immigration lawyers who are making a killing off our current system.

[Smallc]

the consquences will be still coming if that is correct, the EU is a mammoth entity it takes time before all the wheels are turning in the same direction...if/when they retaliate you'll need a separate visa for each EU country you wish to visit, a real pain in the ass for tourists and business...

According to KPMG, this is one of the worlds most competitive countries to do business in. Their loss if they do, I suppose.

[wyly]

According to KPMG, this is one of the worlds most competitive countries to do business in. Their loss if they do, I suppose.

no it's our loss, we're a market of 34 million that supplies resources, the EU is a market of 500 million that consumes resources...and Harper is intent on expanding trade with the EU so we're not dependant on the US and left hanging when the demand for our products drop off south of the border, as they have done...and with the American habit of ignoring trade treaties when convenient it's not wise to have all our eggs in the American basket...

[Smallc]

Europe, while important, is a market of declining importance. China and India are where we need to focus. None of this matters though, because we need to protect our sovereign integrity. We can't let economics stand in the way of action to protect abuse of our country and system.

Anyway, like you said we're a supplier. Europe is going to need what we have, whether or not Visas are needed.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Smallc

[wyly]

Europe, while important, is a market of declining importance. China and India are where we need to focus. None of this matters though, because we need to protect our sovereign integrity. We can't let economics stand in the way of action to protect abuse of our country and system.

Anyway, like you said we're a supplier. Europe is going to need what we have, whether or not Visas are needed.

China and India are not going to buy manufactured goods from us, the EU will.. plus the EU will buy our resources...you can't marginalize/ignore a market of 500 million, if you do we might as well do the same with that tiny market of 300 million to the south of us...

requiring visa from Mexicans has hurt us financially doing so for EU citizens will have the same effect...

Edited April 1, 2010 by wyly

[Smallc]

requiring visa from Mexicans has hurt us financially doing so for EU citizens will have the same effect...

Well, you wouldn't know it from our growth numbers that are constantly being revised upwards. Like I said, not everything is about money.

Oh, and much of what we supply is not manufactured.....and we don't have a US refugee problem.

[wyly]

Well, you wouldn't know it from our growth numbers that are constantly being revised upwards. Like I said, not everything is about money.

disagree, ultimately it's always about the money...

Oh, and much of what we supply is not manufactured.....and we don't have a US refugee problem.

we cannot compete with Indian and Chinese manufacturers for their home market, we can only manufactured goods to countries that have the cash, such as the EU and USA...if we cannot rely solely on resources to support our economy, we'll continually be susceptible to a drastic boom and bust cycles...

the more diversified our economy and markets for our goods the better off we'll all be...

Edited April 1, 2010 by wyly

[Mr.Canada]

we'd have to weigh the cost of civil servants wage $40-100,000 per year vs $500 or so we pay every month in welfare to refugee status claimers...saying it would be for a lifetime would be a generalization most would seek employment, we can let them work while they're waiting for their claims to be processed ...

what ever it costs us in wages we have to chalk up to the cost of doing business, functional governments like any business come with overhead...

Man I was going to say the same about you here too...It seemed like everyone was being reasonable and having a good discussion. You don't think the immigration system is borked and full of fraud?

[/quoteI'm always reasonable until I'm given cause not to be...

let's look at the offending post by mr Canada...

"Well I'm sorry but I don't support fraud as you do. Canada needs a reformed refugee system. Even immigrants know the system is broken. The only ones who wouldn't want it changed are the ignorant, the so called refugee support groups and immigration lawyers who are making a killing off our current system.

In your post you're arguing that we're better off keeping things as they are. As they are is rife with fraud. So if you're saying that reforms aren't worth it because you think it's cheaper to keep things as they are. You support fraud by not supporting the reforms.

The system is broken and needs fixing. To disagree with that is lunacy.

[Smallc]

disagree, ultimately it's always about the money...

Well, I would expect that knowing where you live...but no, not everything is about money. If it was, life would be a sad thing.

we cannot compete with Indian and Chinese manufacturers for their home market, we can only manufactured goods to countries that have the cash, such as the EU and USA...if we cannot rely solely on resources to support our economy, we'll continually be susceptible to a drastic boom and bust cycles...

We don't subscribe to that now. We do need a diversified economy...that means we can send manufactured goods to Europe...whether we require visas or not...and raw goods to China...visas or not.

[Mr.Canada]

If everything was about money their would be no minimum wage and slavery would still be legal.

[Smallc]

If everything was about money their would be no minimum wage and slavery would still be legal.

See, you can say smart things....

[wyly]

Well, I would expect that knowing where you live...but no, not everything is about money. If it was, life would be a sad thing.

where I live is irrelevant... as much as I wish it weren't the truth is it's all about money, healthcare(money), immigration(money), refugees(money), east vs western Canada(money)...sorry if that shatters your ideal world....

We don't subscribe to that now. We do need a diversified economy...that means we can send manufactured goods to Europe...whether we require visas or not...and raw goods to China...visas or not.

business is still conducted face to face, no visa's, no contact, no trust...a visa process is a major roadblock to business and free movement of people, which means lost dollar$...any major business with China doesn't happen without face to face contact, that's the way they do business...

[Smallc]

where I live is irrelevant... as much as I wish it weren't the truth is it's all about money, healthcare(money), immigration(money), refugees(money), east vs western Canada(money)...sorry if that shatters your ideal world....

No, it's not all about money. A country is always about more than money. We make a lot of decisions that aren't based upon money.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Smallc

[wyly]

No, it's not all about money. A country is always about more than money. We make a lot of decisions that aren't based upon money.

we can agree to disagree then...

I used to think like you but then I got older...

[Smallc]

Well, I used to think that money was everything...then I realized that there are other things in life.....not the least of which, people. But, as a patriot, country, ad the security and integrity of that country is also important. Now it's true, many things somehow relate to money, but, when we fund things that cost money and don't make money like human rights tribunal and end of life care for example, it becomes clear that many things don't have money as their primary consideration. Implementing visas to stop false refugee claims so that others who legitimately need visas because of persecution and dangerous situations get them faster.....is not all that related to money.

[August1991]

Good points, Wyly. I want to point out that hiring one civil servant would mean that $ X of bogus claims would be saved, for a lifetime in Canada.

On the contrary. Hiring one civil servant generally increases government spending by more than the civil servant's salary.

one quick fix that costs nothing is reject all refugee claims from the EU, the Hungarian gypsies making claims here could seek refugee status within other EU countries...if Hungary is indeed persecuting gypsies it's an EU problem to solve...

Wyly, this is Kenney's thinking, and the thinking of bureaucrats. It's wrong, and it won't work.

I happen to think that this refugee reform will make things worse. It is the reform/solution of naive captives/bureaucrats in Ottawa. Kenney claims that reforms will "speed the process up". How many times have politicians/bureaucrats promised that?

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In practice, Canada's current immigration selection system amounts to saying: if a foreigner can physically get to Canada, he/she will become a Canadian citizen. Kenney's reform does not change this.

In a certain sense, the current system is not bad. We select wily and sly immigrants, foreigners able to jump through hoops and get to Canada - a northern country isolated by the US and several oceans. Unfortunately, this selection will not work well in the future. Technology means that it is increasingly possible for incompetent people to get to Canada.

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I would prefer a robust government response to the "due process" for "refugee claims" in Canada.

IMV, a foreigner in an oppressed situation (non-UN definition of refugee status) can always travel to a Canadian Embassy/mission abroad. This should be the first place to make a refugee claim.

If a foreigner arrives at an airport in Canada and claims refugee status, they should show evidence (or have computer file evidence) of making such a claim at a Canadian mission abroad (or at another country's embassy representing Canadian interests). Without such evidence, their claim should be dismissed as illegitimate and they should be put on the next returning plane.

IOW, we should make clear that legitimate claims to refugee status can only be made abroad - not within Canada.

Incidentally, this was a major feature of the 1976 immigration reforms. Immigrants had to apply abroad. I similarly think that refugee claimants must also apply abroad.

Canada has an extensive network of missions abroad. Legitimate refugees have every possibility to find or meet a Canadian representative abroad and explain their case.

At present, we accept too many so-called refugees who make it to a Canadian airport while refusing far too many legitimate refugees who apply abroad. This should change. Kenney's reform does not achieve this.

Edited April 2, 2010 by August1991

[Smallc]

In practice, Canada's current immigration selection system amounts to saying: if a foreigner can physically get to Canada, he/she will become a Canadian citizen. Kenney's reform does not change this.

It's immigration system? Not even close. It's extremely difficult, especially if you attempt to become a citizen.

[August1991]

It's immigration system? Not even close. It's extremely difficult, especially if you attempt to become a citizen.

Precisely my point.

I would only add that our immigration system applies to families, not individuals. If a man (or woman) manages to get physically to Canada, then all other immediate family members (spouse and children) also become immigrants and citizens.

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Smallc, my point is that far too many legitimate refugees are refused abroad while we accept far too many illegitimate refugees, scam artists, who manage to get to Canada. IMV, this should change and Kenney's "reform" does not address this fundamental problem.

IMV, Kenney's reform is bureaucratic fuddle-duddle.

[msdogfood]

I don't think anyone has a problem with this reject and eject bogus refugees and speed up the process for legitimate claims...this will require hiring more civil servants to expedite the process which will cost $$$$$$, so we save on welfare for bogus claims but it could cost us more in civil service wages...

one quick fix that costs nothing is reject all refugee claims from the EU, the Hungarian gypsies making claims here could seek refugee status within other EU countries...if Hungary is indeed persecuting gypsies it's an EU problem to solve...

the supreme court of Canada would disagree with you!

see ... Singh v. Minister of Employment and Immigration 1985.

[August1991]

the supreme court of Canada would disagree with you!

see ... Singh v. Minister of Employment and Immigration 1985.

This is the key decision and this is what Kenney should confront. Until he does, his "reform" is fuddy-duddy nonsense.

On very good grounds, political, legal and moral, a federal government would contest this ruling.

The fact is that we refuse abroad legitimate refugees while accepting in Canada refugee scams. The criteria to accept a refugee abroad are not the same as the criteria to accept a refugee in Canada. We are loose in Canada but indifferent abroad. This has to change.

Jason Kenney's reforms are merely cosmetic/bureaucratic, with no effect.

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I want a government with an immigration minister who confronts the Supreme Court and changes Canada's refugee determination bureaucracy. Canada is a big country, we have space for many people, but I don't want more scam artists here. I prefer immigrants who can convince a Visa Officer abroad, and follow the rules.

Edited April 2, 2010 by August1991

[wyly]

Precisely my point.

I would only add that our immigration system applies to families, not individuals. If a man (or woman) manages to get physically to Canada, then all other immediate family members (spouse and children) also become immigrants and citizens.

family members must apply it's not automatic...my sister-in-law is going through the process now...she married a non-canadian and he must apply for immigration like anyone else from outside the country...