wyly Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Atheism is part of a philosophy about the universe, and what have you, isn't it ? cosmic science has nothing to do with philosophy, there is no god and those of us who acknowledge that don't feel a need to prove the nonexistence of nothing...Except that it rightly scorns people who say "I KNOW there's no God because... I just know it !!!".Those people are religious nuts, IMO, and hypocrites too in that you'll often find them debating with religious fundamentalists, which they themselves are. So, far from whether belief in no elves is faith, or where faith meets philosophy... this argument is for me about me personally not liking hard core argumentative "believe in no god" atheists. Let's call a spade a spade. We're pretty much on the same page except for that. this the "is the glass half full or half empty"... you can comphrend no other view than the optimistic glass is half full...myself I just see a glass with water... atheism is not a faith/religion, it's nothing, zero, zilch..just as there no elephant in the room with me is a fact, there is nothing to ponder faith-the belief in anything without any evidence just because you can't comprehend what is clear in our minds I resent being called a religious nut... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 (edited) Atheism is part of a philosophy about the universe, and what have you, isn't it ? It can be a part of a materialistic philosophy, but so what? Just because it's a precept of a certain of philosophies hardly means its a philosophy itself. Unless, like religion, you have your own unique operating definition. Except that it rightly scorns people who say "I KNOW there's no God because... I just know it !!!". Which would be fine, but that's not where my own world view sits. I lack belief in gods. I don't scorn those that do, because I'm fully aware that neither I or the theist have any better footing, and the only truly rational position is agnosticism. The problem with me saying I'm an atheist is that people like you seem to instantly condemn me for being a member of the Church of Dawkins, which is patently false. I don't attend "free thinker" meetings (and find that label infantile and inflammatory). I don't proscribe to militant atheist notions that religion is evil, should be banned, and so on and so forth. I've been called a "weak" atheist because I make no positive claim (I don't say "There is no God!"). Philosophically and rationally, my atheism is based simply upon the (admittedly slightly non-rational) application of the Null Hypothesis, which, when I apply it, simply states that asserting the existence of God is extraordinary claim, and thus requires extraordinary evidence, and in the absence such evidence, I simply take the null position (note, not the negative position, but the null position). Those people are religious nuts, IMO, and hypocrites too in that you'll often find them debating with religious fundamentalists, which they themselves are. So, far from whether belief in no elves is faith, or where faith meets philosophy... this argument is for me about me personally not liking hard core argumentative "believe in no god" atheists. Let's call a spade a spade. We're pretty much on the same page except for that. I'm not so sure. It may seem splitting hairs to you, but I feel there's a world of difference between saying "I lack belief in God" and saying "I believe there is no God". The biggest problem with the whole debate is that demands of proof by one side and the kinds of proof given by the other side are utterly incompatible. There is no way to produce an empirical proof of an omnipotent being, pure and simple. And the answers usually given by the other side are either essentially arguments from aesthetics (ie. the world is too beautiful not to have been created) or invoke circular reasoning (ie. a Prime Mover is necessary). Neither side can really get past the fact that from a very strict rationalistic point of view, both can't make the grade. Edited March 30, 2010 by ToadBrother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 cosmic science has nothing to do with philosophy, there is no god and those of us who acknowledge that don't feel a need to prove the nonexistence of nothing... You are a typical religious atheist then, and the epitome of the fellow liberal that gets under my skin. Sorry to say it, but... this the "is the glass half full or half empty"... you can comphrend no other view than the optimistic glass is half full...myself I just see a glass with water... atheism is not a faith/religion, it's nothing, zero, zilch..just as there no elephant in the room with me is a fact, there is nothing to ponder I don't ponder it, because there's no point in doing so. Whether or not you do, having a fixed and unwavering opinion on what's "on the other side" represents faith of some kind because it can't ever be proven or disproven. faith-the belief in anything without any evidence Such as belief that only a material world exists, that there is no other plane of existence. just because you can't comprehend what is clear in our minds I resent being called a religious nut... Sorry if I used the term "nut". I should have referred to you of a "man of strong faith". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 It can be a part of a materialistic philosophy, but so what? Just because it's a precept of a certain of philosophies hardly means its a philosophy itself. Unless, like religion, you have your own unique operating definition. Ok. I thought that one's belief in God could in itself constitute a "philosophy". If it's just a part, or precept then OK. Which would be fine, but that's not where my own world view sits. I lack belief in gods. I don't scorn those that do, because I'm fully aware that neither I or the theist have any better footing, and the only truly rational position is agnosticism. The problem with me saying I'm an atheist is that people like you seem to instantly condemn me for being a member of the Church of Dawkins, which is patently false. I don't attend "free thinker" meetings (and find that label infantile and inflammatory). I don't proscribe to militant atheist notions that religion is evil, should be banned, and so on and so forth. I've been called a "weak" atheist because I make no positive claim (I don't say "There is no God!"). Philosophically and rationally, my atheism is based simply upon the (admittedly slightly non-rational) application of the Null Hypothesis, which, when I apply it, simply states that asserting the existence of God is extraordinary claim, and thus requires extraordinary evidence, and in the absence such evidence, I simply take the null position (note, not the negative position, but the null position). No, I'm down with "no belief in gods" ... even if it doesn't go as far as agnosticism. I'm not down with "belief in no gods" as it is a belief at the core, formed without proof. I'm not so sure. It may seem splitting hairs to you, but I feel there's a world of difference between saying "I lack belief in God" and saying "I believe there is no God". No, not at all. I would have a beer with you (providing you paid) but I could only fight the other kind of atheist to a bloody and raucous ending, with me as the victor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 (edited) No, not at all. I would have a beer with you (providing you paid) but I could only fight the other kind of atheist to a bloody and raucous ending, with me as the victor. Believe me. The fanatical atheist almost views me as more of an enemy than the theist. I've basically been called an appeaser because I see no point in this made-up culture war. Most of my friends are theists, most of the people I deal with are theists, and just as importantly most of my relations are (including my wife), so taking outrageously dogmatic positions on this topic seems, apart from any philosophical considerations, quite detrimental. I despise Hitchens and Dawkins (though I admire the latter as one of the great evolutionary biologists of the last the forty years) because, when you peel it all back, it's just a pi$$ing contest, infantile, inflammatory and mean-spirited. Edited March 30, 2010 by ToadBrother Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 You are a typical religious atheist then, and the epitome of the fellow liberal that gets under my skin. Sorry to say it, but... atheism is not a religionReligion 1.a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. sorry none of these fit the definition of atheism Sorry if I used the term "nut". I should have referred to you of a "man of strong faith". I don't have faith, I have knowledge and a POV faith-belief that is not based on proof: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Believe me... I read your post, and yes I do believe. I'm a toadbrotherist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 atheism is not a religion Religion 1.a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship. 2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order. 3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader. 4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion. sorry none of these fit the definition of atheism #4 fits nicely, actually. You're nothing if not zealous, and - zealous Wiley - you catch less flies with vinegar than with honey. Which is why I'm covered with flies on this forum and you're not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 #4 fits nicely, actually. You're nothing if not zealous, and - zealous Wiley - you catch less flies with vinegar than with honey. Which is why I'm covered with flies on this forum and you're not. again only from your POV my dog's crap attracts flies too, so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 If atheism is the belief in no God.And Agnosticism is one who is sitting on the fence.And Theism is a bilief in God/God's.And Monotheism is the belief in A God....What's Nihilism?...I know it's the belief in nothing,but is'nt that a belief system unto itself? Or do I listen to Walter Sobchek from the Big Lebowski? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 I read your post, and yes I do believe. I'm a toadbrotherist. Ah good. When can I expect your financial contribution to my humble cause...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 When you ARE PISSING YOUR PANTS AND IN Pain....and old and fragile..God is not an option..he is a neccesity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 If atheism is the belief in no God.And Agnosticism is one who is sitting on the fence.And Theism is a bilief in God/God's.And Monotheism is the belief in A God....What's Nihilism?...I know it's the belief in nothing,but is'nt that a belief system unto itself? Or do I listen to Walter Sobchek from the Big Lebowski? From a philosophical perspective, I don't think nihilism quite means "belief in nothing" so much as it's a denial that any knowledge can be reliably demonstrated to be true or false. At least that's what epistemological nihilism is. As to Walter... best line in the movie... "Don't be afraid, Donnie. They're just nihilists!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 ALL thinking beings are agnostics..God would not have it any other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 When you ARE PISSING YOUR PANTS AND IN Pain....and old and fragile..God is not an option..he is a neccesity. been through that...god never entered the picture... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Weber Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 From a philosophical perspective, I don't think nihilism quite means "belief in nothing" so much as it's a denial that any knowledge can be reliably demonstrated to be true or false. At least that's what epistemological nihilism is. As to Walter... best line in the movie... "Don't be afraid, Donnie. They're just nihilists!" Or..."Vee are nihilists!!!...Vee belive in nossing!!!!" Actually Walter contradicts your thesis... "Nihilism?!?!...Say what you want about National Socialism,dude...But at least it's an ethos!". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Ah good. When can I expect your financial contribution to my humble cause...? I can help with the collection basket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 been through that...god never entered the picture... Perhaps you did not give life and death much thought, seeing you were so uppity..much like a shameless man who is never insulted when you pee in his face and insists that it is heavenly rain? SO tell me..when you run out of human steam - you do not reach up into the endless and powerful universe to gain an extra drop of strength that your poor human body can not generate on it's own? I take all the help I can get if it is neccesary and do not hate that which might just sustain you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Perhaps you did not give life and death much thought, seeing you were so uppity..much like a shameless man who is never insulted when you pee in his face and insists that it is heavenly rain? SO tell me..when you run out of human steam - you do not reach up into the endless and powerful universe to gain an extra drop of strength that your poor human body can not generate on it's own? I take all the help I can get if it is neccesary and do not hate that which might just sustain you. you're born, you live, you die, the end...I have no delusions concerning death, I accept it...carpe diem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Atheism is simply rejection of mysticism. To be an atheist is to deal only with that which is rational, perceivable, and knowable. There is no belief or faith involved. In regards to the earlier discussion: the rejection of absurd beliefs that have no basis is not an act of faith, it is an act of reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToadBrother Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Atheism is simply rejection of mysticism. To be an atheist is to deal only with that which is rational, perceivable, and knowable. There is no belief or faith involved. Except that positivist Atheism (or, if you long, strong atheism) does very much make what appears to be an epistemological claim; God does not exist. That is, I'm afraid, a leap of faith. In regards to the earlier discussion: the rejection of absurd beliefs that have no basis is not an act of faith, it is an act of reason. That's easy when the claims on the table are "12,000 invisible massless faeries occupy your underwear drawer". It gets considerably trickier when you try matching wits with a deist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Atheism is simply rejection of mysticism. To be an atheist is to deal only with that which is rational, perceivable, and knowable. There is no belief or faith involved. Under one definition of atheism, that is indeed true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Another question: I have a friend who believes in pagan spirits but not in monotheism. What is she ? Be nice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Except that positivist Atheism (or, if you long, strong atheism) does very much make what appears to be an epistemological claim; God does not exist. That is, I'm afraid, a leap of faith. Anything the existence of which is not supported by reasonable evidence can be considered not to exist, without this being an act of faith. God is no different. Assertion of the existence of something and the non-existence of something are not equivalent positions: there is no reason to conclude that something exists unless one has evidence to think that it does, and there is every reason to conclude that something does not exist if there is no evidence of its existence. That's easy when the claims on the table are "12,000 invisible massless faeries occupy your underwear drawer". It gets considerably trickier when you try matching wits with a deist. I don't think it does. The same principle applies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bonam Posted March 30, 2010 Report Share Posted March 30, 2010 Another question: I have a friend who believes in pagan spirits but not in monotheism. What is she ? Be nice... A pagan or a polytheist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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