Agnosticism, Atheism, Theism...

[bloodyminded]

I consider myself a Christian agnostic (Christian in philosophy, and agnostic according to the above definition) but have been told by some that I'm really an Atheist.

And there's my example of a lady friend who believed that we are surrounded by pagan spirits... and that she herself was an atheist...

I like Bertrand Russell's remark:

Whenever I go into a foreign country or a prison or any similar place they always ask me what is my religion.

I never know whether I should say "Agnostic" or whether I should say "Atheist". It is a very difficult question and I daresay that some of you have been troubled by it.

And just incidentally, I get a chuckle from "Whenever I go into a foreign country or a prison or any similar place....."

[M.Dancer]

I consider myself a Christian agnostic (Christian in philosophy, and agnostic according to the above definition) but have been told by some that I'm really an Atheist.

And there's my example of a lady friend who believed that we are surrounded by pagan spirits... and that she herself was an atheist...

She is a confusist...

[M.Dancer]

Agnosticism

the belief that it's impossible to know if a God or Gods exists; that ultimate knowledge is unattainable.

Atheism

the belief that no God or Gods exist

Theism

the belief that a God or Gods do exist

Deism

the belief in an all-knowing creator that is indifferent and unconnected to all religions

I see no particular difference between a deism and theism

[Jack Weber]

She is a confusist...

Confusist...Wicca...Whatever...

[ToadBrother]

I see no particular difference between a deism and theism

In part, I suspect that's because it's a continuum, not two completely independent ideas. Just about every deist I've met or read about specifically rejected the idea of a personal god, and some seem to reject the idea of even an intelligent god. Theists tend towards a personal and personified god; active and sentient. I suppose there's every combination out there, until you get what maybe could be called a "strong" deist. I would put Einstein in that category. He didn't really seem to buy into the idea of a personhood of God, but rather as more of a force, or nature itself.

[Smallc]

I see no particular difference between a deism and theism

One is based on faith, where the other isn't. Deists don't really believe in God, they simply know god is there based on the reasoning that has been done. They see God as an initial creator, and not much more. They also have no place for any religious texts.

[jbg]

What Reagan (who was not an especially insightful or intelligent man, not by any knowledge we have of him) failed to understand was that the chef did not create the food on the table. Nor is he responsible for an entire universe of which the food is but a part...including the fact that said food is by definition rotting before our eyes.

What you don't understand is that without the chef you have a glorified version of roadkill (O.K. maybe slaughterhouse kill). Reagan was no idiot and his analogy here was spot on.

[Yesterday]

I think rust has got to be the strongest argument there is against any intelligent design behind the universe. As near as I can tell rust is only good for barked knuckles. That said, if they want to pay me overtime for chipping away at it, who am I to argue?

[ToadBrother]

What you don't understand is that without the chef you have a glorified version of roadkill (O.K. maybe slaughterhouse kill). Reagan was no idiot and his analogy here was spot on.

Most of the universe is profoundly inhospitable to human life. I think the analogy is crap.

[Guest TrueMetis]

But TB, the existence of these so-called rules of the universe begs the question: did they "just happen"? And in a way that would work 15 billion years later?

Since we have a sample size of 1 to work with this line of questioning is pointless, for all we know every possible configuration of the universe could support life.

I know that you will just hate this anecdote but I am reminded of Reagan's answer to atheists: "Imagine you see a table in a restaurant filled with delicious food. Who would question the existence of a chef?"

Having never seen a chef or someone cook food I might. But the real difference here, all I need to do to verify the chef is meet him. Can't do that with a god.

[jbg]

Most of the universe is profoundly inhospitable to human life. I think the analogy is crap.

I don't expect you to agree with me all the time and I don't agree with you all the time. Normally your posts are thoughtful and well-considered.

Name-calling doesn't become you.

[ToadBrother]

I don't expect you to agree with me all the time and I don't agree with you all the time. Normally your posts are thoughtful and well-considered.

Name-calling doesn't become you.

Um... I wasn't calling you names, I was calling the analogy names... I just don't buy it. That's all. Shouldn't surprise anyone, I'm a filthy atheist.

Basically it's an argument that because we perceive order, there must be someone putting things into order. I look at an ice crystal, and it's marvelously ordered, but it is still the product of natural phenomena. To me, the Universe is a wondrous, but extraordinarily inhospitable place, just a hundred miles up off of Earth and you can be baked alive by solar radiation. Space itself is so inhospitable that if you lose pressure, you've got maybe seconds before explosive decompression pops your eyeballs out of your head.

But, from my perspective, the big problem is assuming the conclusion; that order necessitates someone who puts things into order.

[bloodyminded]

What you don't understand is that without the chef you have a glorified version of roadkill (O.K. maybe slaughterhouse kill). Reagan was no idiot and his analogy here was spot on.

If his analogy were spot on, then his belief would be that everything we know pre-exists God...who simply started arranging it after he showed up.

A chef doesn't create in the sense of the word here; he manipulates what is already present.

Edited August 25, 2010 by bloodyminded

[Guest TrueMetis]

If his analogy were spot on, then his belief would be that everything we know pre-exists God...who simply started arranging it after he showed up.

A chef doesn't create in the sense of the word here; he manipulates what is already present.

"If you want to make a pie from scratch you must first create the universe."

[CanadianConservative]

There is room for belief

and doubt.

You can choose to go either way,

because in the end,however you

believe,it all comes down to choice,

and you have to live with your decision.

[ToadBrother]

There is room for belief

and doubt.

You can choose to go either way,

because in the end,however you

believe,it all comes down to choice,

and you have to live with your decision.

I've always been curious of the sentiment. If there is a God and he's this big infinite being, why the hell would he care whether some humans believed in him, some didn't, some believed in the wrong version of him or believed in competitors or replacements? It strikes me that the God of many Christians really is just the Big Guy, as human as any of us, with a bigger stick.

I just have a hard time fathoming an infinite being having the capacity to have his feelings hurt.

[Guest TrueMetis]

I just have a hard time fathoming an infinite being having the capacity to have his feelings hurt.

A god such as that is petty and not worth worship.

[ToadBrother]

A god such as that is petty and not worth worship.

And yet most Christians and Muslims seem to feel that Yahweh is precisely that kind of a god, rewarding the true believer and condemning anyone else to the Fire. Even I decided tomorrow that existence required someone to kick it in the pants, I couldn't possibly imagine such an ultimate being with such a vengeful streak.

I mean, come on, if I decide to go to the wrong church in someone's eyes, I'm gonna burn. Or, alternatively, I get rewarded with virgins in heaven if I strap dynamite to myself and blow up some Jewish kids?

Edited August 26, 2010 by ToadBrother

[Guest TrueMetis]

I mean, come on, if I decide to go to the wrong church in someone's eyes, I'm gonna burn. Or, alternatively, I get rewarded with virgins in heaven if I strap dynamite to myself and blow up some Jewish kids?

If there is a god it's contemplating vapourizing our planet.

[dre]

I've always been curious of the sentiment. If there is a God and he's this big infinite being, why the hell would he care whether some humans believed in him, some didn't, some believed in the wrong version of him or believed in competitors or replacements? It strikes me that the God of many Christians really is just the Big Guy, as human as any of us, with a bigger stick.

I just have a hard time fathoming an infinite being having the capacity to have his feelings hurt.

Iv wondered that before too, and the answer is pretty obvious. Humans are incredibly self centered, and narcistic. We quite literally believed we were the center of the universe for thousands of years until scientists convinced us otherwise... the stars revolved around us. So for theists some absentee landlord god off floating about the universe just isnt good enough.

Then of course theres the crowd control aspect and the fact modern religions were co-opted by governments as a form of control - a carrot and stick approach to making people behave. If god wasnt watching there wouldnt be any stick.

I personally find the "magic man in the sky" myth to be basically implausible but I definately find the deist version of god to be a lot more believable than the theist version for the reason you mentioned.

[dre]

And yet most Christians and Muslims seem to feel that Yahweh is precisely that kind of a god, rewarding the true believer and condemning anyone else to the Fire. Even I decided tomorrow that existence required someone to kick it in the pants, I couldn't possibly imagine such an ultimate being with such a vengeful streak.

I mean, come on, if I decide to go to the wrong church in someone's eyes, I'm gonna burn. Or, alternatively, I get rewarded with virgins in heaven if I strap dynamite to myself and blow up some Jewish kids?

Of course! How else are you going to get someone to join your club instead of another. You tell em joining your club is gonna be really fun, and joining the other one would right suck ass.