wyly Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 so now that Alberta has taken the first shot on Equalization payments what will be the ramifications in the next Federal election if any, this is an issue Harper doesn't want brought up...or was it just the Provincial Conservatives cutting the legs out from under the WRP... personally I think there should be equalization payments as we are one country just as a family shares it's resources so should a family of provinces...I'll always help out my kids financially when I can... on the other hand it's not cool when some provinces don't live within their means and count on others in the family to continuously bail them out of trouble...it's like having an kid that is always partying and living beyond his/her means maxing out credit cards and then expecting you to continually top up their bank balance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 so now that Alberta has taken the first shot on Equalization payments what will be the ramifications in the next Federal election if any, this is an issue Harper doesn't want brought up...or was it just the Provincial Conservatives cutting the legs out from under the WRP... personally I think there should be equalization payments as we are one country just as a family shares it's resources so should a family of provinces...I'll always help out my kids financially when I can... on the other hand it's not cool when some provinces don't live within their means and count on others in the family to continuously bail them out of trouble...it's like having an kid that is always partying and living beyond his/her means maxing out credit cards and then expecting you to continually top up their bank balance... In a family you decide how to share your wealth, how much and to who. Equalization doesn't afford you this freedom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 on the other hand it's not cool when some provinces don't live within their means and count on others in the family to continuously bail them out of trouble...it's like having an kid that is always partying and living beyond his/her means maxing out credit cards and then expecting you to continually top up their bank balance... You have to be kidding. Alberta spends more than any other province per capita. They are only able to do so because they were lucky enough to be created on top of the largest pot of wealth in Canada. Without equalization, not only could the maritime provinces, Quebec, and Manitoba not provide the services that other provinces do, but we would probably go broke. Manitoba would have to halve it's healthcare budget without equalization. Quebec would probably have a similar problem. Canada isn't a family, it's a country, and the Constitution ensures that to at least some degree, we all get to enjoy the wealth that this country creates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted March 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 In a family you decide how to share your wealth, how much and to who. Equalization doesn't afford you this freedom. then what's the solution? I have no problem sending money off to help another member of our family when they're in trouble but how do we decide how much and under what conditions it is to be spent? It bothers me when I see another province receives EQ payment, then introduces all sorts of great social programs or improvements in healthcare that we ourselves can't afford because we've sent them our money and we have to slash programs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 Which of the four largest provinces spends the most per person on government programs? Alberta. (In fiscal 2009, it spent nearly $10,000 per head, about $3,100 more than Ontario. Only Newfoundland spent more.) http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/the-alberta-royalty-backtrack/article1499381/ You could afford those same programs. It's all about priorities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 then what's the solution? I have no problem sending money off to help another member of our family when they're in trouble but how do we decide how much and under what conditions it is to be spent? It bothers me when I see another province receives EQ payment, then introduces all sorts of great social programs or improvements in healthcare that we ourselves can't afford because we've sent them our money and we have to slash programs... our legislature should decide it, much like was done before equalization existed. Ontairio had loaned/transferred Alberta money in the past to help build the technology to beable to extract the oil from the tar sands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted March 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 You have to be kidding. Alberta spends more than any other province per capita. They are only able to do so because they were lucky enough to be created on top of the largest pot of wealth in Canada. Without equalization, not only could the maritime provinces, Quebec, and Manitoba not provide the services that other provinces do, but we would probably go broke. Manitoba would have to halve it's healthcare budget without equalization. Quebec would probably have a similar problem. Canada isn't a family, it's a country, and the Constitution ensures that to at least some degree, we all get to enjoy the wealth that this country creates. the "family" is a useful analogy...and if we're not family then it's everyone for themselves and you have me moving towards the separatist fringe...that doesn't excuse havenot provinces from living with in their means...why do my kids have to pay significantly more for Uni tution than a kid in Quebec? because Quebec can afford to because of EQ Payments... I don't have issues with helping out but not if the other provinces getting benefits we can not afford ourselves, if that's the case they're getting too much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 the "family" is a useful analogy...and if we're not family then it's everyone for themselves and you have me moving towards the separatist fringe... You can do as you wish. A country isn't a family...it's a country. This country happens to be a federation with a balancing mechanism. that doesn't excuse havenot provinces from living with in their means...why do my kids have to pay significantly more for Uni tution than a kid in Quebec? because Quebec can afford to because of EQ Payments... No, because Quebec has used their money from equalization as they see fit. The study that shows Quebec has more to spend is simply preposterous. What equalization does is bring every provincial government up to a minimum level. Have provinces do or could have more than the minimum. Some don't (BC goes in and out of equalization because of this) but most do. Alberta has more money to spend than any other province. If Quebec and Manitoba were to have to live within their means, we'd be living in hell holes that couldn't possibly provide even the most basic of services. I don't have issues with helping out but not if the other provinces getting benefits we can not afford ourselves, if that's the case they're getting too much... I've shown you evidence that you can afford them, you just choose not to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 our legislature should decide it, much like was done before equalization existed. Ontairio had loaned/transferred Alberta money in the past to help build the technology to beable to extract the oil from the tar sands. That would be like you being able to decide to pay taxes. The reality is, the money never was in your treasury, it was in the federal treasury. It's their decision what happens to it, but they have to have some kind of program to provide for some kind of equality. Almost every country has such a program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 (edited) That would be like you being able to decide to pay taxes. The reality is, the money never was in your treasury, it was in the federal treasury. It's their decision what happens to it, but they have to have some kind of program to provide for some kind of equality. Almost every country has such a program. ah but that is because more federal taxes are being collected to cover this off. If federal taxes are reduced it makes room for the provinces to increase their's. Wyly is right about the Quebec tuition. Edited March 15, 2010 by Alta4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 (edited) But, the federal government gets to set federal tax rates. It's their decision. Whether Wyly is right about Quebec tuition is irrelevant. They get the money, and they can do with it as the please. Education is a provincial matter. Edited March 15, 2010 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted March 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/commentary/the-alberta-royalty-backtrack/article1499381/ You could afford those same programs. It's all about priorities. two pints from you link...transport Alberta has 1/5 of all the roads in Canada there is tremendous costs in mainting those roads so yes we spend more than any other province...we had a huge influx of migrants and immigrants and those too cost money, schools, hospitals have to be built, we shouldn't be punished for growth, growth that supplies EQ payments... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 But, the federal government gets to set federal tax rates. It's their decision. Whether Wyly is right about Quebec tuition is irrelevant. They get the money, and they can do with it as the please. Education is a provincial matter. They are able to fund it and other programs because of equalization. The fact is they are spending federal tax money on programs that the taxpayers who supplying the money can vote on. If they can afford these lavish social programs they don't need equalization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 Welcome to the right wing. You aren't being punished for anything. You are sitting on oil. If you weren't, you'd be in the same situation. Quebec has a huge influx of immigrants, as does BC. Ontario grows faster than everyone else. What are you proposing should be done to fix the problem that you see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted March 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 (edited) You can do as you wish. A country isn't a family...it's a country. This country happens to be a federation with a balancing mechanism. No, because Quebec has used their money from equalization as they see fit. The study that shows Quebec has more to spend is simply preposterous. What equalization does is bring every provincial government up to a minimum level. Have provinces do or could have more than the minimum. Some don't (BC goes in and out of equalization because of this) but most do. Alberta has more money to spend than any other province. If Quebec and Manitoba were to have to live within their means, we'd be living in hell holes that couldn't possibly provide even the most basic of services. I've shown you evidence that you can afford them, you just choose not to. well this relates to another thread about immigration...if Quebecers and Manitobans did what immigrants did and moved when their economy is in the toilet Alberta wouldn't need to look outside Canada for labour...why should provinces be any different than small towns, when the economy is gone you adapt or close the doors and move on...I spent a lot of my life in Sask, it for the most part was never a booming economic center but it was never a hell hole and we always had good healthcare and schools...we lived within our means, except for the brief period there was conservative government that nearly bankrupt the province... Edited March 15, 2010 by wyly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted March 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 Welcome to the right wing. You aren't being punished for anything. You are sitting on oil. If you weren't, you'd be in the same situation. Quebec has a huge influx of immigrants, as does BC. Ontario grows faster than everyone else. What are you proposing should be done to fix the problem that you see? i'll never be a rightie I don't know what to propose that's why I started the thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 What are you proposing should be done to fix the problem that you see? Elminate it and force provinces to live within their means. If they have serious short falls they could apply to the federal government on a yearly basis, to be approved as stand alone by a stand alone vote. Not part of the budget bill. The federal government would be able to drop income taxes drastically and provinces could increase their's to make up a portion of the new short fall they have. It would also cause all of the bureaucracies to restructure, like elminate many supervisory positions as for example we have too many in alberta's civil service as it is. The ratio should be moved to 1 supervisor to every 25 employees like in the private sector. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 i'll never be a rightie I don't know what to propose that's why I started the thread... Propose to who? are you part of the renew alberta movement and the Alberta party? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 well this relates to another thread about immigration...if Quebecers and Manitobans did what immigrants did and moved when their economy is in the toilet Alberta wouldn't need to look outside Canada for labour...why should provinces be any different than small towns, when the economy is gone you adapt or close the doors and move on... I find this very insulting. I don't want to leave Manitoba, and the Constitution says I can stay. It also says that my province will get equalization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 Elminate it and force provinces to live within their means. That's not going to happen. The money, according to the Constitution, belongs to all of us through Equalization. I hope that Jim Flaherty tells Ted Morton where to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted March 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 Elminate it and force provinces to live within their means. If they have serious short falls they could apply to the federal government on a yearly basis, to be approved as stand alone by a stand alone vote. Not part of the budget bill. The federal government would be able to drop income taxes drastically and provinces could increase their's to make up a portion of the new short fall they have. It would also cause all of the bureaucracies to restructure, like elminate many supervisory positions as for example we have too many in alberta's civil service as it is. The ratio should be moved to 1 supervisor to every 25 employees like in the private sector. of course there is a problem with this...how do you force the Alberta government to be fiscally responsible?... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 I find this very insulting. I don't want to leave Manitoba, and the Constitution says I can stay. It also says that my province will get equalization. As you become more experienced in life you will find that it is never about what you want but more so what is in your best interest. Why should Canadians subsidize you to live were you want? You should be going to where you can support yourself. My ancestors didn't come to canada because they wanted to leave there homes, they came because it was in their best interest to start new lives with the chance that it would be better existence with more opportunities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted March 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 I find this very insulting. I don't want to leave Manitoba, and the Constitution says I can stay. It also says that my province will get equalization. it's not insulting, it's reality...I didn't want to move but I did, that was the financial reality, and if the economy hits bottom here and I have no work and my wife loses her job I'll move again, maybe BC, maybe Europe where ever I see an opportunity for my family... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted March 15, 2010 Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 of course there is a problem with this...how do you force the Alberta government to be fiscally responsible?... vote out the duds, i will be casting my ballot against the PC's again this election and it looks like we may have a good chance at a new government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted March 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2010 As you become more experienced in life you will find that it is never about what you want but more so what is in your best interest. Why should Canadians subsidize you to live were you want? You should be going to where you can support yourself. My ancestors didn't come to canada because they wanted to leave there homes, they came because it was in their best interest to start new lives with the chance that it would be better existence with more opportunities. hmmm...I always liked Kits beach area of Vancouver, North Van is nice too, or the Gulf Islands... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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