Quebec among most highly indebted industrial economies in the world

[Martin Chriton]

Quebec is among most highly indebted industrial economies in the world. Article is at http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec/quebec-among-most-highly-indebted-industrial-economies-in-the-world/article1484107/

Quebec ranks only below Japan, Italy, Greece and Iceland in terms of public debt as a percentage of GDP.

That's pretty disastrous.

With the level of debt of socialist nations spiraling out of control, why are people still supporting parties such as the NDP (and to a lesser degree the Liberals)?

Edited February 27, 2010 by Martin Chriton

[Sir Bandelot]

With the level of debt of socialist nations spiraling out of control, why are people still supporting parties such as the NDP (and to a lesser degree the Liberals)?

Maybe it's because they care about something more than just money. Guess it's a big drag that you can't prop up the rich by buying their consumerist junk these days. Darn, that's so inconvenient...

Hey but that non-communist US economy has been doing real well, hasn't it. Now that they took the tax money right out of the peoples pockets and gave it to the banks. But thats not socialism though, is it...

It's like this- pay me a little bit now, or pay me all you got later. Pick your poison

[William Ashley]

Quebec is among most highly indebted industrial economies in the world. Article is at http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec/quebec-among-most-highly-indebted-industrial-economies-in-the-world/article1484107/

Quebec ranks only below Japan, Italy, Greece and Iceland in terms of public debt as a percentage of GDP.

That's pretty disastrous.

With the level of debt of socialist nations spiraling out of control, why are people still supporting parties such as the NDP (and to a lesser degree the Liberals)?

They have a national debt now too? Actually socialist nations have been doing pretty good as of late such as venezuela and russia. They've had issues but their economies were far more insulated from the depression.

China still has a growth rate like 600% more than Canada's.

Norway

Edited February 28, 2010 by William Ashley

[Martin Chriton]

They have a national debt now too?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/27/nation-vote.html

Actually socialist nations have been doing pretty good

You obviously don't keep up with news (at least economic news ).

Europe is doing terrible right now w/ it's debt crisis.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100205/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_europe_financial_crisis

such as venezuela and russia.

Using economies whose wealth literally flows from does not make them good managers of money.

China still has a growth rate like 600% more than Canada's.

Hah. Do you have any idea what the standard of living is in China vs. Canada? China is becoming a less terrible place to live. Good job

[Martin Chriton]

Maybe it's because they care about something more than just money. Guess it's a big drag that you can't prop up the rich by buying their consumerist junk these days. Darn, that's so inconvenient...

Yeah, for some people saddling their children with debt is good policy... I suppose.

Hey but that non-communist US economy has been doing real well, hasn't it. Now that they took the tax money right out of the peoples pockets and gave it to the banks. But thats not socialism though, is it...

Some would say the US is too socialist already.

[Sir Bandelot]

Yeah, for some people saddling their children with debt is good policy... I suppose.

Some would say the US is too socialist already.

Perhaps, but that's not what got them into this boat. Some would say it was unregulated "laissez faire" capitalism. What happened a few months ago, took a lot of years of irresponsible economic policy. Seems socialism had to come to the rescue.

[William Ashley]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2006/11/27/nation-vote.html

When did they vote on having giving it a debt?

You obviously don't keep up with news (at least economic news ).

I troll the news.

Europe is doing terrible right now w/ it's debt crisis.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100205/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_europe_financial_crisis

The EU isn't allowed to be socialist - it sounds too left wing.

P.S. what countries arn't socialist right now?

Using economies whose wealth literally flows from does not make them good managers of money.

Huh? En francais s'il vous plait?

Hah. Do you have any idea what the standard of living is in China vs. Canada? China is becoming a less terrible place to live. Good job

Whose standard? They have warmer weather in the southern part. Standard of living is what you make it, wealth is a cultural concept.

[Smallc]

Quebec has a provincial debt. The story doesn't say what the debt of other sub-national entities around the world are. The reality is, most jurisdictions have increasing debt (though I believe that until recently Quebec's debt was becoming larger, but smaller as a percentage of GDP, making it more manageable) and we're going to see many countries get past the debt level of the Province of Quebec. Oh, and by the way, Parliament recognized the Quebecois as a nation, not Quebec.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Smallc

[maple_leafs182]

Economies aren't the problem, the entire monetary system is the problem.

First off, paper can't be money.

Private Central banks worldwide have the power to manipulate economies, they alone can bring nations to their knees by controlling interest rates and the money supply.

There is more then one way to control the world. I don't like sounding like a conspiracy theorists, but central banks control the world and by extension, central bankers control the world.

All you have to do is control what the people value most, money.

It is quite obvious, I don't know how people don't see this.

We should not be money's slaves, we should be it's masters.

[Guy M]

Quebec is among most highly indebted industrial economies in the world. Article is at http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec/quebec-among-most-highly-indebted-industrial-economies-in-the-world/article1484107/

Quebec ranks only below Japan, Italy, Greece and Iceland in terms of public debt as a percentage of GDP.

That's pretty disastrous.

With the level of debt of socialist nations spiraling out of control, why are people still supporting parties such as the NDP (and to a lesser degree the Liberals)?

A large percentage is Hydro-Quebec, and is associated with assets that have value and earn money.

I'll still agree that Quebec is living beyond it's means. We can't afford to subsidize electricity and encourage people to waste it. I see the proposed rate increase as a good thing on that front. It will increase revenu to the province, hopefully reduce consumption, meaning we can also export more, hopefully enough to turn off a coal generator or two in New-England, Ontario or the martimes.

Our tuitions are low, although graduates tend to pay back the differences over time with their increased revenue. Tuitions need to follow inflation too which hasn't really been happening.

Our daycare program largely pays for itself with the income of mothers, but should have been indexed to inflation when it came in.

[Argus]

Perhaps, but that's not what got them into this boat. Some would say it was unregulated "laissez faire" capitalism. What happened a few months ago, took a lot of years of irresponsible economic policy. Seems socialism had to come to the rescue.

Come again? Greece is on the edge of bankruptcy. The UK might well be next, if one of the other socialist European countries doesn't precede them. The US certainly was the victim of irresponsible economic policies, but not as badly as the Europeans. And yes, the US was criminally lax in supervising its banks. But who says European banks have done any better?

[Argus]

Quebec has a provincial debt. The story doesn't say what the debt of other sub-national entities around the world are.

Most likely lower. Canadian provinces have FAR more powers and taxation abilities than most other "sub-national entities", certainly more than US states, more than places like Scotland and Whales in the UK, more than French districts or Spanish regions.

The reality is, most jurisdictions have increasing debt (though I believe that until recently Quebec's debt was becoming larger, but smaller as a percentage of GDP, making it more manageable) and we're going to see many countries get past the debt level of the Province of Quebec. Oh, and by the way, Parliament recognized the Quebecois as a nation, not Quebec.

Saying "many ships are sinking" should be an attitude which shrugs off the need to keep one of our own from going below the waves.

However, I wonder just how Quebec separatists can explain how they think that Quebec can survive independently when even with the billions and billions in equalization every year, Quebec is still tottering towards bankruptcy.

[Smallc]

Quebec is still tottering towards bankruptcy.

Actually, they're not. Their net debt to GDP ration was improving before the recession. If they can return to that, they'll be just fine.

[Sir Bandelot]

Come again? Greece is on the edge of bankruptcy. The UK might well be next, if one of the other socialist European countries doesn't precede them. The US certainly was the victim of irresponsible economic policies, but not as badly as the Europeans. And yes, the US was criminally lax in supervising its banks. But who says European banks have done any better?

All those countries banking systems are interconnected. They are all appendages attached to the US economic engine. Globalization only exacerbates this problem. Even healthy economies lead by responsible countries lost money, such as in Canada. Hence there is more of a move now to disconnect economies, to provide a buffer against such possibility in the future.

Unabated greed eventually devours even itself.

Edited February 28, 2010 by Sir Bandelot

[ironstone]

Quebec is among most highly indebted industrial economies in the world. Article is at http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/quebec/quebec-among-most-highly-indebted-industrial-economies-in-the-world/article1484107/

Quebec ranks only below Japan, Italy, Greece and Iceland in terms of public debt as a percentage of GDP.

That's pretty disastrous.

With the level of debt of socialist nations spiraling out of control, why are people still supporting parties such as the NDP (and to a lesser degree the Liberals)?

The scary part is,I think most people in Quebec are blissfully unaware of this situation as well as the fact they get 8 billion in equalization payments.

[Guy M]

The scary part is,I think most people in Quebec are blissfully unaware of this situation as well as the fact they get 8 billion in equalization payments.

Most people in Canada are also blissfully unaware that Quebec sends 46BN a year in taxes to Ottawa... Nearly 21% of the total budget.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Guy M

[Smallc]

Most people in Canada are also blissfully unaware that Quebec sends 46BN a year in taxes to Ottawa...

The tax number is probably high, but I'm going to need a cite on that one. As far as I know Quebec is at best a break even province.

[punked]

The tax number is probably high, but I'm going to need a cite on that one. As far as I know Quebec is at best a break even province.

I am going too agree with this citation needed. Considering only 16 billion a year is given out in all equalization I for see some fuzzy math here.

[Bonam]

He means the total federal taxes (income, sales, etc) gathered from Quebec are 46 billion, which sounds about right. Of course, more than 46 billion of the federal budget is spent right back on Quebec.

[Smallc]

He means the total federal taxes (income, sales, etc) gathered from Quebec are 46 billion, which sounds about right. Of course, more than 46 billion of the federal budget is spent right back on Quebec.

I would need cites on both of those numbers, because I'm almost positive that isn't correct. In transfers, Quebec will get just over $19B. I'm not sure of the actual federal program spending within the province.

http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/mtp-eng.asp#Quebec

[Guy M]

I would need cites on both of those numbers, because I'm almost positive that isn't correct. In transfers, Quebec will get just over $19B. I'm not sure of the actual federal program spending within the province.

http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/mtp-eng.asp#Quebec

I can't find the figures for 2008, I will admit that I heard this number and assumed it to be right based on other factors.

The closest I could find was 2004 figures putting federal tax contributions from Quebec at roughly 5500$ / person. For 7.8 million people this amounts to 43 billion. That was 6 years ago...

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/prb0639-e.htm#provrevcoll

As you mentioned the total transfer payment to Quebec, including equalization, is about 20BN. This remains above average, but near/below the median in most cases.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Guy M

[Argus]

I would need cites on both of those numbers, because I'm almost positive that isn't correct. In transfers, Quebec will get just over $19B. I'm not sure of the actual federal program spending within the province.

http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/mtp-eng.asp#Quebec

Transfer payments to Quebec are only a part of the story, of course. The government also spends a lot of money on things like the military, foreign affairs, airports, highways, ports, consumer and health protection, arts and culture and sports, and various subsidies and handouts to business. A big chunk of that is also for the benefit of Quebecers, some specific, ie, ports and roads and subsidies to busines inside Quebec, and some more generalized such as the military. Overall, Quebec puts in a lot less than it gets out.

Which is why they're still here. Money is the only reason Quebec stays in confederation. It would be bankrupt within a year of leaving if it tried to maintain its current spending.

[Smallc]

Money is the only reason Quebec stays in confederation.

Oh yeah right. There are many more loyal Quebecers than you give credit for. My goodness, the entire country is still celebrating (including huge crowds in Quebec waving the maple leaf) and here you are being your negative self.

Edited March 1, 2010 by Smallc

[Guy M]

Transfer payments to Quebec are only a part of the story, of course. The government also spends a lot of money on things like the military, foreign affairs, airports, highways, ports, consumer and health protection, arts and culture and sports, and various subsidies and handouts to business. A big chunk of that is also for the benefit of Quebecers, some specific, ie, ports and roads and subsidies to busines inside Quebec, and some more generalized such as the military. Overall, Quebec puts in a lot less than it gets out.

Which is why they're still here. Money is the only reason Quebec stays in confederation. It would be bankrupt within a year of leaving if it tried to maintain its current spending.

How about you provide me a source that the feds spend 46BN a year on Quebec?

[Hydraboss]

How about you provide me a source that the feds spend 46BN a year on Quebec?

Okay, how about this:

I can't find the figures for 2008, I will admit that I heard this number and assumed it to be right based on other factors.

The closest I could find was 2004 figures putting federal tax contributions from Quebec at roughly 5500$ / person. For 7.8 million people this amounts to 43 billion. That was 6 years ago...

http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/PRBpubs/prb0639-e.htm#provrevcoll

As you mentioned the total transfer payment to Quebec, including equalization, is about 20BN. This remains above average, but near/below the median in most cases.

Top of the page, figure 2. Give you a hint...if "blue" is higher than "purple", you contribute more than you receive.

Guess what color Kwebek is? Anyone?