Danny Williams: The hypocrisy of Canada's Left

[August1991]

Seems to me that those who want to pry into Danny's personal life should know these facts first before commenting on how he chooses to spend his money for his own sake. (smallc, this isn't meant as a dig against you, it is really a dig against the OP which shows no awareness of any facts (other than Danny getting treatment) and appears to be nothing more than a jealous induced ad hominem attack on Danny Williams).

Huh?

He can pay for whatever he wants. He still, by doing what he did, became a hypocrite that should have zero credibility from now on, especially on issues of healthcare.

Exactly.

It's his money and his choice.

No shit Sherlock.

Your analytical talents astonish. msj, are you an accountant?

Back to the tax return:

Okay, say he only puts $150,000 on his tax return (T1).

Say he donates the net amount to charity (~$99,000).

His tax bill would be: $7,300 (donations get a generous tax credit but it is not a 1:1 ratio to tax being paid.).

Okay, so now lets add $80,000 for medical expenses and we get:

Taxes owing of $2,500.

In fairness, I have never done a NFLD tax return so there could be special credits that I'm not including here.

But it does give a good idea of the amount of money we're talking about - diddly squat when compared to money Danny saved the taxpayer by not getting the procedure done in Canada in the first place.

You've answered my question.

Then again, I have known several accountants with a broader view of life. And whatever one can say about life, it is certanly more than a tax deduction - and Danny Williams would be the first to agree.

[Oleg Bach]

Finding by chance one very billiant and talented doctor educated in Africa- I jumped at the chance of making him my private personal physican..but he had no room for me..so I am stuck with a second rate practioner that I will rarely vist...Danny Williams is like all smart people--who know you can almost never find a good doctor in Canada- and If I had resources and knew of a good one state side-- I would go..as the feminists used to say "it is my body and my choice" to have the best care.

[Michael Hardner]

Finding by chance one very billiant and talented doctor educated in Africa- I jumped at the chance of making him my private personal physican..but he had no room for me..so I am stuck with a second rate practioner that I will rarely vist...Danny Williams is like all smart people--who know you can almost never find a good doctor in Canada- and If I had resources and knew of a good one state side-- I would go..as the feminists used to say "it is my body and my choice" to have the best care.

Why "used to say" ?

[Oleg Bach]

Why "used to say" ?

Because I believe the feminist cause of the 70s that was noble at that time failed. Reason I am saying that is from what I witnessed while observing the family courts..woman who took positions of authority in time under the guise of feminism only utlilized and used there less powerful sisters to generate wealth and status for what became a female elite.

[msj]

Huh?

Exactly.

No shit Sherlock.

Your analytical talents astonish. msj, are you an accountant?

You've answered my question.

Then again, I have known several accountants with a broader view of life. And whatever one can say about life, it is certanly more than a tax deduction - and Danny Williams would be the first to agree.

Ah, yes, start the OP with no substance and all ad hominem, and then do the same to he who points it out.

Brilliant strategy, sherlock!

[Guest American Woman]

If you focus on just his quotes (rather than the media filler between them) then you would wonder, like I do, if he did it for convenience sake (i.e. the timing was better to get the procedure done at this point in time without the bone crack) rather than wait the week or two to get it done elsewhere in Canada.

I am focusing on his quotes; I've included his quotes in my posts. Whether he wanted to wait a week or two to get it done in Canada, and took off for the U.S. instead, is of significance. That's my point. He made it sound as if he couldn't have had it done in Canada, and he clearly said that he would seek reimbursement if entitled to it. Evidently he's above Canada's health care system, if that's the case.

But bottom line: He did Canada's health system a disservice by his comments; saying he would get better care in the U.S. than in Canada.

I don't expect a Premier to read the New England Journal of Medicine and to know where a procedure is or isn't.

I don't expect him to read the New England Journal of Medicine, but I do expect him to be up on what Canada's doctors/surgeons offer before making public statements. Not knowing, yet saying what he did, basically amounts to ignorance, and I don't think that's acceptable in the position of Premier. Pointing out the article just shows that it's not something so new in Canada that a Premier wouldn't be aware of it, especially with just the very minimum of searching for the information.

But according to Danny Williams we have this on the record:

"This was my heart, my choice and my health"

"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."

"I wanted to get in, get out fast, get back to work in a short period of time."

"I would've been criticized if I had stayed in Canada and had been perceived as jumping a line or a wait list. ... I accept that. That's public life,"

"(But) this is not a unique phenomenon to me. This is something that happens with lots of families throughout this country, so I make no apologies for that."

"I have the utmost confidence in our own health care system in Newfoundland and Labrador, but we are just over half a million people,"

"We do whatever we can to provide the best possible health care that we can in Newfoundland and Labrador. The Canadian health care system has a great reputation, but this is a very specialized piece of surgery that had to be done and I went to somebody who's doing this three or four times a day, five, six days a week."

Based soley on what is quoted to him I think this nonsense about him insulting Canadian doctors and the Canadian system is overblown, if not outright spun to absurd conclusions by the media.

There's nothing "spun" or "overblown" about it. He could have had the same procedure, with the same recovery time, in Canada. He could have been "in and out and back to work" just as fast. That's a fact. He said he chose to go outside of Canada "for the best possible care." You don't see that as an insult to the Canadian doctors who perform the same procedure? And if he would have jumped the line in Canada to get it faster than someone else, he should have been called on that, too.

I have stated on several occasions that this case does not appear to have been medically urgent.

Exactly. So what would make him think he should be entitled to any reimbursement by the Canadian health care system? Or more to the point, why would he seek any? He made his choice, and as I pointed out, I don't think the general Canadian population has a choice between waiting their turn or being treated in America at the taxpayer's expense. That would definitely be "queue jumping."

The timing of getting the procedure is important to any individual and very well could have been the primary motive for doing it this way (well, besides getting a personal referral from a doctor in New Jersey, that he knew well, to go to that doctor in Miami).

Who would Canadian doctors have referred him to? That a doctor in the States recommended a doctor in the States, where Williams happened to have a Condo, doesn't prove that it was "the best care" he could have received.

As for the timing, I'm sure that's important to everyone, yet the vast majority of Canadians are waiting their turn. Again, that's one of the points being made.

There are rules in place to deal with this as smallc showed in a post above. Should he get a full reimbursement, then I agree those rules should be changed.

Exactly my point.

If he gets little to no reimbursement under the rules then I have no problem with this.

He should get no reimbursement; even "a little" is too much under the circumstances.

If it was medically urgent and he couldn't get it done in Canada, then of course the taxpayers should pay for it.

But as has been pointed out, that's not the case.

This case appears to be for convenience sake (whether the timing or the condo) so it is fair to not reimburse him, imo.

Exactly.

I believe that I could do it. I tend to leave some spare cash around just in case and I have a private health services plan set up from my own company so I could even arrange to use that method to get a deduction should the BC government not reimburse me per the rules mentioned by smallc in a post above.

I'm not particularly wealthy, but I could do it so I have to think that 20-30% of Canadians could find a way to do it too.

If the circumstances are right (which they appear not to be in Danny's case) then, with proper referrals and procedures, yes, I think Canadians can and do get reimbursement for medical procedures done in the US.

I doubt whether calling an American doctor for a referral is following the protocol for "proper referrals;" I doubt whether the Canadian population as a whole could do that and then seek reimbursement. Again, that's been my point.

Bottom line, this procedure was available in Canada. Williams makes it sound as if it wasn't, but it is. And to say he went to the U.S. to "get the best care" is a slam to Canada's health care system.

Danny Williams has stated:

"If I'm entitled to any reimbursement from any Canadian health care system or any provincial health care system, then obviously I will apply for that as anybody else would[.]"

"But I wrote out the cheque myself and paid for it myself and to this point, I haven't even looked into the possibility of any reimbursement. I don't know what I'm entitled to, if anything, and if it's nothing, then so be it."

So I'm okay with that and he seems to be okay with it too.

So you're ok with him seeking reimbursement, and ok with it if he gets it? That seems to be in direct contradiction to what you said earlier in this post.

[msj]

I doubt whether calling an American doctor for a referral is following the protocol for "proper referrals;" I doubt whether the Canadian population as a whole could do that and then seek reimbursement. Again, that's been my point.

I agree and the point I have been trying to make is that hopefully our policies are such that he will not get a reimbursement (although, granted, there may be other facts that we don't know about that would allow him to, and perhaps even justify him, to get a refund of some kind).

So you're ok with him seeking reimbursement, and ok with it if he gets it? That seems to be in direct contradiction to what you said earlier in this post.

I'm okay if he gets a reimbursement if that's what the policies allow.

However, if the facts of this story are as they have been presented, then I hope the rules are changed to prevent this type of reimbursement in the future.

IOW, "it's the policies, stupid."

Hmmm, could that be Canada's equivalent to "it's the economy, stupid?"

[msj]

But bottom line: He did Canada's health system a disservice by his comments; saying he would get better care in the U.S. than in Canada.

He has claimed that he preferred to see a surgeon who does this procedure on a regular basis - that is not a slam on Canada's health care system nor on any specific surgeon in Canada (for whom I doubt Danny would know very many in the first place to be able to make a proper judgement anyway).

If someone I know refers me to someone then I treat that referral as more credible than going to see some unknown surgeon somewhere else.

I would think that that is the case here.

I don't expect him to read the New England Journal of Medicine, but I do expect him to be up on what Canada's doctors/surgeons offer before making public statements. Not knowing, yet saying what he did, basically amounts to ignorance, and I don't think that's acceptable in the position of Premier. Pointing out the article just shows that it's not something so new in Canada that a Premier wouldn't be aware of it, especially with just the very minimum of searching for the information.

Well, since none of us truly know all of the facts, and the anxieties, of Danny and his doctors I don't think it is really fair to talk just of his "ignorance."

Once again: people tend to place more credibility on a referral from someone they know. If I knew a doctor in NJ and he told me that so and so is the best in the world I would likely believe it too.

Perhaps that makes me ignorant or gullible or too trusting of a friendly expert, just like Danny is being portrayed to be.

There's nothing "spun" or "overblown" about it. He could have had the same procedure, with the same recovery time, in Canada.

But he may not have been able to have done it with the same timing.

If he had a particular window to schedule the surgery into and that window did not work in Canada then I think that that is a legitimate reason to go to the US and pay for it himself (although, not enough to seek reimbursement for it from taxpayers, but that is a policy issue as I mention elsewhere).

He could have been "in and out and back to work" just as fast. That's a fact.

No, it's not a fact.

You do not know what his schedule is like. You don't know how soon he would have been treated in Canada (since this was not medically urgent).

Those "facts" have not been adequately explained in sufficient detail to claim them as "facts."

He said he chose to go outside of Canada "for the best possible care." You don't see that as an insult to the Canadian doctors who perform the same procedure?

Given the referral from his doctor/friend in NJ who said the doctor in Miami is one awesome surgeon, no, I don't see it as an insult at all.

Perhaps, one day, we'll have some kind of "Iron Surgeon" show on TV where top surgeons from around the world can compete in "Surgeon Stadium" and we can all see whose procedures reign supreme?

And if he would have jumped the line in Canada to get it faster than someone else, he should have been called on that, too.

I didn't bother posting that quote from the article where Danny mentions that he would be accused of queue jumping had he had it done in Canada.

And he's right - people would assume that to be the case whether it was or not. Facts be damned.

[Alta4ever]

But according to Danny Williams we have this on the record:

"This was my heart, my choice and my health"

"I did not sign away my right to get the best possible health care for myself when I entered politics."

"I wanted to get in, get out fast, get back to work in a short period of time."

"I would've been criticized if I had stayed in Canada and had been perceived as jumping a line or a wait list. ... I accept that. That's public life,"

"(But) this is not a unique phenomenon to me. This is something that happens with lots of families throughout this country, so I make no apologies for that."

"I have the utmost confidence in our own health care system in Newfoundland and Labrador, but we are just over half a million people,"

"We do whatever we can to provide the best possible health care that we can in Newfoundland and Labrador. The Canadian health care system has a great reputation, but this is a very specialized piece of surgery that had to be done and I went to somebody who's doing this three or four times a day, five, six days a week."

Based soley on what is quoted to him I think this nonsense about him insulting Canadian doctors and the Canadian system is overblown, if not outright spun to absurd conclusions by the media.

But yet this political class in Canada won't allow me the average citizen the to buy a medical insurance policy even though I would cite the reasons Danny has stated I want the best not what has decided to be adequate. If what I have access to in this country isn't good enough for the politicians, its not good enough for me.

[msj]

But yet this political class in Canada won't allow me the average citizen the to buy a medical insurance policy even though I would cite the reasons Danny has stated I want the best not what has decided to be adequate. If what I have access to in this country isn't good enough for the politicians, its not good enough for me.

I agree that Canada needs significant change that will have to come from the federal and provincial governments.

I can't fault any politician, who may want significant change to allow better health care policies for the "average" citizen, for not doing much.

Until there is a crisis in the system (which will be demographically based and, therefore, far too late) the average citizen will not provide support to any political leader with the balls to change the system.

The only problem I have with this case is if he gets reimbursement. Anyone should be at liberty to seek health care treatment elsewhere on their own dime.

I don't think his case can justify his US based procedure being reimbursed - it should come from his own pocket (subject to any medical tax credit he can legally claim on his tax return) and if it doesn't, then maybe the average citizen can rally around a leader who will change the policies more appropriately for the average citizen.