Did you know?

[naomiglover]

Yeah, I guess naomiglover's response is not too suprising. Almost Pavlovian.

Nothing illustrates that someone (e.g. naomiglover) fails to understand issues as when they immediately label people who disagree as 'storm troopers'. (Of course, I could also point out how distasteful it is to use the term 'storm trooper' when dealing with an issue involving a Jewish state, considering the historical use of 'stormtrooper' in nazi Germany.)

The fact is, several issues were raised which illustrate continued Palestinian belligerence. Rather than actually try to deal with those issues, you go and insult anyone who might have a problem with you posting your one-sided video. Shows a lack of reasoning ability on your part. You DO realize that, rather than being able to convince us of the 'nobility' of the Palestinian cause, all you are doing is making us realize just how many Palestinian supporters are "useful idiots". Perhaps if you were able to actually state your case in a logical, rational manner, without relying on cheesy one-sided videos, and without resorting to insults you might actually be more convincing.

The stormtroopers came in and denounced the video as biased without giving any specific reason why.

The video focused on the numbers, which, as far as I've seen all happen to be true.

[ToadBrother]

So, would you rather see one of the few modern, democratic states in the Middle east (i.e. Israel) eliminated, and replaced by a nation run by Hamas or Fatah, groups that have been, ahem, far from democratic (Hamas is known to kill political rivals within the Palestinian population and Fatah was widely seen to be corrupt, often run as a dictatorship)?

And an ineptly run dictatorship at that.

Frankly I think guys like Hamas and Fatah need a belligerent Israel. Whenever a dove comes to power, the anti-Israeli terror reaches a fever pitch, because the Palestinian power brokers rely entirely on making sure the violence is constant and endemic. If there ever actually was a peace, these guys would lose the grip on power they currently hold. The more hawkish Israel is, the better, and the best way to keep Israel hawkish is to attack them with enough frequency to assure the doves are sidelined.

[naomiglover]

Does anyone else find it ironic that naomiglover is accusing someone else of believing the conflict is "black and white", when they themselves started the thread with a video that was completely one sided, and that totally ignored any transgressions that the Palestinians have engaged in?

The conflict was investigated by Richard Goldstone. A respected and experienced judge, who is a former chief prosecutor of the United Nations International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda.

His findings indicate that both Israel and Hamas committed war crimes and possible crimes against humanity. Hamas, for firing rockets into Israel, even if they killed 3 civilians. Israel for numerous acts that they committed.

If you want to know about the conflict, have a look at the repot.

So, would you rather see one of the few modern, democratic states in the Middle east (i.e. Israel) eliminated, and replaced by a nation run by Hamas or Fatah, groups that have been, ahem, far from democratic (Hamas is known to kill political rivals within the Palestinian population and Fatah was widely seen to be corrupt, often run as a dictatorship)?

If Israel follows international law, it does not mean that they would be eliminated.

[ToadBrother]

If Israel follows international law, it does not mean that they would be eliminated.

And what precisely has international law ever done for Israel? Where is the outrage at Hezbollah and its masters in Tehran and Damascus? Where is the international community standing on preventing the Iranians from getting nuclear weapons, almost certain to be pointed directly at Tel Aviv?

Like I said, if I were Israel, I'd declare the Palestine independent, and the first rocket to cross the border or the first suicide attack as an act of war, declare war and go from there. Now that would be an application of international law.

[naomiglover]

And what precisely has international law ever done for Israel?

It allowed Israel to be created.

Where is the outrage at Hezbollah and its masters in Tehran and Damascus?

Iran support for Hezbollah is not much different than U.S.' support for Israel.

Where is the international community standing on preventing the Iranians from getting nuclear weapons, almost certain to be pointed directly at Tel Aviv?

How certain? As certain as Tel Aviv pointing their weapons at Tehran and everyone else around them? If Israel can get away with having nuclear weapons, who are we to say that Iran cannot?

[Guest American Woman]

We have never had a Canadian government, majority or minority, who has turned a blind eye to the injustices that has and continues to occur and who has so blatantly taken a side.

What a shame.

Speaking of "blatantly taking a side:"

Who bears the greatest responsibility for innocent casualties in Gaza? Consider yesterday's deaths of 39 people, many of them civilians, during an Israeli mortar barrage near a United Nations school in Gaza.

According to the Associated Press, an official with the U.N. agency that runs the school says his office is "99.9 percent certain there were no militants or military activity in its school." Nevertheless, the report continues, "the agency wants an impartial investigation of witnesses, Israeli military photographs or any other evidence."

How reassuring to hear that the U.N. agency wants an impartial investigation after asserting it's "99.9 percent certain" of the conclusion. Hopefully that scintilla of doubt includes the claims of Palestinians themselves, who now confirm Israel's assertion.

Here's an excerpt from one Associated Press report:

Residents of a Gaza neighborhood are confirming Israel's claim that Hamas militants had opened fire from the cover of a U.N. school where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge.

...Two residents say a group of militants had fired their mortars from a street near the school, then fled into a crowd of people in the streets.

And here's another, also from the AP:

Palestinian residents, speaking on condition of anonymity because of fear of retribution, said several militants ran toward the crowd, trying to use it as cover, when the first Israeli mortar shell missed them.

... Gaza militants used to wear black or khaki uniforms, but since the start of the Israeli offensive have been operating in civilian clothing, blending into crowds, residents say.

The Blame Game: Israel, Hamas, and Civilian Deaths in Gaza

If Hamas wants to limit civilian deaths, they should quit using them to try to save their own hide.

[bloodyminded]

Like I said, if I were Israel, I'd declare the Palestine independent, and the first rocket to cross the border or the first suicide attack as an act of war, declare war and go from there. Now that would be an application of international law.

A suicide attack is not "an act of war."

Or, if it is, there are certain countries committing far worse: the United States, for example and Canada, and much of Europe.

You are explicitly calling for Haiti (if it had the means) to attack France, Canada, and the United States...on much better grounds than Israel would have to start a war, actually. Hell, Haitian State terrorist Emmanuel Constant (responsible for more deaths than Hamas-entire) lives free and breezy in New York City. Does Haiti have the "right" to raze his apartment building in NY, killing civilians in the process, Israeli-style?

If not...why not?

Supporting terrorists is supposed to be an act of war--according to US policy. Canada does not clearly seem to be in official disagreement on this jaw-dropping hypocrisy.

Or do we, in the usual formulation, determine that the MORE powerful you are, the LESS responsibility you should hold?

Further, your little hypothesis amounts to "Exterminate all the brutes."

Edited February 8, 2010 by bloodyminded

[M.Dancer]

Iran support for Hezbollah is not much different than U.S.' support for Israel.

Hezbollah is not a nation, it is a terrorist oganization.

[naomiglover]

Hezbollah is not a nation, it is a terrorist oganization.

Israel has been called a terrorist state.

Both have violated international law with their actions. Support for either is wrong.

[ToadBrother]

Israel has been called a terrorist state.

Yes, by terrorists.

Both have violated international law with their actions. Support for either is wrong.

Nice try. You already have tipped your hand on whose side your own.

[bush_cheney2004]

Israel has been called a terrorist state.

Both have violated international law with their actions. Support for either is wrong.

Says who...you? Better check on the actions of Canada (or USA), and pull your support at once!

[DogOnPorch]

The stormtroopers came in and denounced the video as biased without giving any specific reason why.

The video focused on the numbers, which, as far as I've seen all happen to be true.

It's your buddies Hamas and Hezbollah with the direct link to the Nazis.

[Guest American Woman]

Israel has been called a terrorist state.

You do recognize the huge difference between "has been called a terrorist state" and "IS a terrorist organization," right?

Palestinians "have been called" terrorists too, so does that mean the Palestinian population is made up of terrorists?

[M.Dancer]

Israel has been called a terrorist state.

But not by anyone with an average IQ or above.

Both have violated international law with their actions. Support for either is wrong.

That pathetic attempt to give legitimacy to Hezbollah is laughable.

[DogOnPorch]

BC-2004: Says who...you? Better check on the actions of Canada (or USA), and pull your support at once!

And throw that computer out the window....Made in Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentium_M

[bloodyminded]

It's your buddies Hamas and Hezbollah with the direct link to the Nazis.

But the Nazis have been useful to other parties too. Some of them are...interesting connections:

"Honest and idealist ... enjoys good food and wine ... unprejudiced mind ..."

That's how a 1952 Central Intelligence Agency assessment described Nazi ideologue Emil Augsburg, an officer at the infamous Wannsee Institute, the SS think tank involved in planning the Final Solution. Augsburg's SS unit performed "special duties," a euphemism for exterminating Jews and other "undesirables" during the Second World War.

Although he was wanted in Poland for war crimes, Augsburg managed to ingratiate himself with the U.S. CIA, which employed him in the late 1940s as an expert on Soviet affairs. Recently released CIA records indicate that Augsburg was among a rogue's gallery of Nazi war criminals recruited by U.S. intelligence shortly after Germany surrendered to the Allies.

Pried loose by Congress, which passed the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act three years ago, a long-hidden trove of once-classified CIA documents confirms one of the worst-kept secrets of the Cold War the CIA's use of an extensive Nazi spy network to wage a clandestine campaign against the Soviet Union.

The CIA reports show that U.S. officials knew they were subsidizing numerous Third Reich veterans who had committed horrible crimes against humanity, but these atrocities were overlooked as the anti-Communist crusade acquired its own momentum. For Nazis who would otherwise have been charged with war crimes, signing on with American intelligence enabled them to avoid a prison term.

"The real winners of the Cold War were Nazi war criminals, many of whom were able to escape justice because the East and West became so rapidly focused after the war on challenging each other," says Eli Rosenbaum, director of the Justice Department's Office of Special Investigations and America's chief Nazi hunter. Rosenbaum serves on a Clinton-appointed Interagency Working Group committee of U.S. scholars, public officials, and former intelligence officers who helped prepare the CIA records for declassification.

Many Nazi criminals "received light punishment, no punishment at all, or received compensation because Western spy agencies considered them useful assets in the Cold War," the IWG team stated after releasing 18,000 pages of redacted CIA material. (More installments are pending.)

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0508-05.htm

So, Nazis are bad...if the hated word "Palestinian" is invoked (usually mouthed sourly as if it's boiling with maggots).

But when it's for "Cold War" purposes (meaning, one only has to utter the talismanic phrase to forgive every single action, without exception, of the Right Agents, the benign-or-not-so-benign hegemon)...well, it's not an issue.

Edited February 8, 2010 by bloodyminded

[DogOnPorch]

But the Nazis have been useful to other parties too. Some of them are...interesting connections:

Gosh...you're correct! Two wrongs DO make a right.

[naomiglover]

From the report - Page 281 - Israel uses civilians as human shield:

He was scared that the fighters would shoot at him and shouted, “I am a Palestinian, a neighbour. I am

being forced to come into this house.” In a room at the bottom of the stairs he found three armed

young men wearing military camouflage and headbands of al-Qassam Brigades. They pointed

their weapons at him. He told them that the Israeli soldiers thought that they had been killed and

had sent him to check. He said that he was helpless as the soldiers had taken his wife and

children. The armed men told him that they had seen everything, and asked him to go back to the

soldiers and tell them what he had seen.

1040. He went back outside, again crossing over the roof of his house. As he approached the

soldiers, they pointed their weapons at him and ordered him to stop, strip naked and turn around.

After he dressed again, he told them what he had seen. Initially, the soldiers did not believe him.

They asked how he knew that they were Hamas militants and he explained about their

headbands. The soldiers asked about their weapons. He replied that they were carrying

Kalashnikovs. The officer told him that, if he was lying, he would be shot dead.

1041. He was handcuffed and taken back to the HS/09 family house for detention. At around 3

p.m., he heard gunfire for around 30 minutes. The soldiers came back for him and took him to

the same officer. This time he noticed different soldiers present with different military

equipment. Through the translator, the officer told him that they had killed the militants, and told

him to go in and bring back their bodies. Again he refused, saying “this is not my job, I don’t

want to die.” He lied to them, saying that the three militants had told him that if he came back,

they would kill him. The officer told him that, as they had already killed the militants, he should

not worry. He added that they had fired two missiles into the house, which must have killed the

militants. When he still resisted, he was beaten and kicked again, until he went into HS/08’s

house via the roof again.

1042. He found the house very badly damaged. The bottom part of the stairs was missing. He

again went in shouting, to alert the militants if they were still alive. He found them in the same

room as before. Two were unharmed. The third was badly injured, covered in blood, with

wounds to his shoulder and abdomen. They asked him what was going on outside and he told

them that the area was fully occupied and the soldiers had taken numerous hostages, including

his family.

1043. The wounded man gave him his name (HS/10) and asked him to tell his family what had

happened. Majdi Abd Rabbo promised to do so if he survived and later did so. Another of the

three told him to tell the Israeli officer that, if he was a real man, he would come to them himself.

1044. Majdi Abd Rabbo returned to the soldiers, who again forced him to strip naked before

they approached him. He told the officer that two of the militants were unharmed. The officer

swore at him and accused him of lying. Majdi Abd Rabbo then repeated the message from the militant,

at which the officer and four other soldiers assaulted him with their weapons and

insulted him.

1045. The officer asked Majdi Abd Rabbo for his identity card. He replied that it was in his

house but gave him the ID card number. The officer checked the number via an electronic

device. Three minutes later the officer asked him if it was true that he worked with the head of

Palestinian Authority’s intelligence services, which he confirmed. The officer asked him if he

was with Abu Mazen and a Fatah affiliate. He said he was.

[bloodyminded]

Gosh...you're correct! Two wrongs DO make a right.

I appreciate your conceding it's a wrong; few people dare go that far, considering Cold War politics (up to and including mass murder) to be necessary acts sanctified by God.

As they've been ordered to think through their lifelong patriotic indoctrination.

My point is that this concern about the Nazis and the Palestinians cannot be taken seriously. It isn't meant seriously. Else we'd be MORE concerned with the Western postwar democracies' behaviour in such matters.

As opposed to not even slightly concerned about it, at all, as focus must be fixed starkly on the Palestinians...not ourselves.

Of course, the latter approach demands the sort of elementary morality we demand of five-year-olds, as well as an understanding of basic democratic principles. So, it's a no-go.

When we and Evil muslims do the same things..it's the Muslims that are bad.

Because they're Evil, and we're Good. Even when we're bad.

The tautology is so perfect it's impressive, almost luminous.

[PIK]

Arafat ruined it for the palastines, while he stole them blind. That last deal he turned down was(IMO) was good start to getting what they wanted ,but we want it all or nothing and they got nothing. So palastine is still going nowhere,while I think arafats widow is out spending the millions or billions he stole. To blame the Isreali's for everything is wroing, well it is anti- isreal if anything. Was Isreal in the right to defend it self,yes, do I agree with the building of settlements at this time, no.So I must ask, the people here that blame isreal for everything, do you really believe that or do you just hate them?

[bloodyminded]

Arafat ruined it for the palastines, while he stole them blind. That last deal he turned down was(IMO) was good start to getting what they wanted ,but we want it all or nothing and they got nothing. So palastine is still going nowhere,while I think arafats widow is out spending the millions or billions he stole. To blame the Isreali's for everything is wroing, well it is anti- isreal if anything. Was Isreal in the right to defend it self,yes, do I agree with the building of settlements at this time, no.So I must ask, the people here that blame isreal for everything, do you really believe that or do you just hate them?

Speaking for myself, no, I certainly don't blame Israel for everything.

[M.Dancer]

From the report - Page 281 - Israel uses civilians as human shield:

Unsubstaniated hearsay testimony has little value. especially stories the stink of fiction.

[DogOnPorch]

My point is that this concern about the Nazis and the Palestinians cannot be taken seriously. It isn't meant seriously. Else we'd be MORE concerned with the Western postwar democracies' behaviour in such matters.

Nowhere else on the planet did a former Nazi and war criminal with links to the Holocaust end up running the show elsewhere. Most were caught and hung...or tracked down by Nazi hunters. But ODESSA had served both the Mufti and similar Nazi war criminals well when it came to escaping to the 'friendly' Middle-East. Otto Skorzeny comes to mind as one example. Ended up working for both the Mufti and Nasser. He was infamous for leading the Brandenburgers wearing US uniforms during the Battle of the Bulge...as well as rescuing Mussolini and such.

But indeed you're correct re: the CIA getting involved where they shouldn't have due to the McCarthy Era. Heck...I believe even Skorzeny was connected to them in a rather round-about way. His boss was on the CIA payroll (Reinhard Gehlen) for a brief time.

[naomiglover]

Unsubstaniated hearsay testimony has little value. especially stories the stink of fiction.

According to you, who has not read the report. If you had, you would know that it's more than a testimony of 1 person that is taken into account.

Richard Goldstone's methodology of investigation has been good enough for him to be selected as the chief prosecutor for international criminal court for the former yugoslavia and rwanda.

Judge Goldsone was also a member of the International Panel of the Commission of Enquiry into the Activities of Nazism in Argentina (CEANA) which was established in 1997 to identify Nazi war criminals who had emigrated to Argentina, and transferred victim assets (Nazi gold) there.

The investigation was done professionally. Your attempt to discredit Goldsone and his investigation is a failure.

[Guest American Woman]

The investigation was done professionally. Your attempt to discredit Goldsone and his investigation is a failure.

"Professionally" isn't synonymous with "correct." One can "professionally" include testimony in a report, but that doesn't automatically make it accurate. One can "professionally" conduct an investigation, but that doesn't assure that all the information given/gathered is correct.

Now, since you've avoided it thus far, I'll ask you again:

You do recognize the huge difference between "has been called a terrorist state" and "IS a terrorist organization," right?

Palestinians "have been called" terrorists too, so does that mean the Palestinian population is made up of terrorists?

Edited February 8, 2010 by American Woman