Ontario By Election

[madmax]

Election Date:

Thursday February 4th

[Oleg Bach]

Who ever takes the city state of Toronto takes the province - who has the engine of Canada takes Ottawa.

[madmax]

Bump!

I think this is going to be a Liberal Cakewalk in a safe riding. I don't think any amount of incompetence or the HST are going to stick to the Ontario Liberals.

[capricorn]

There's a chance Murray, an ex mayor from Manitoba, will be seen as an outsider. Taylor placed twice behind Smitherman and wants the job bad enough for a third try. From what I read, she's getting a lot of positive press. All speculative but I decided to vote for her on your poll madmax.

[madmax]

All speculative but I decided to vote for her on your poll madmax.

LOL its a "Secret Ballot"

Todays the vote. This is the weakest participation on MLW I have seen.

So....I will have to dispute the outcome of our "scientific poll" as it stands.

I think this is a Liberal Cakewalk again.

I think Cathy Crowe has made an impact as she always has as a community activist. Perhaps it will require two runs, perhaps she will upset the status quo as Glen Murray appears to be another Liberal Milktoast with his bellyup to the entitlement trough. I don't think the outsider roll is ever a significant factor in a Toronto election or byelection (But I wish it was). Personally, I understand the need to parachute a leader into a riding to get a seat but other then that, if you don't have the quality within the riding association to locate a local candidate with a strong track record, you probably have a shitty association with no grassroots appeal.

I am only aware of Pamela Taylors Provincial run in 2007.

I don't know if her commenting on John Bairds Sexual Orientation has helped or hurt the campaign.

[M.Dancer]

Bump!

I think this is going to be a Liberal Cakewalk in a safe riding. I don't think any amount of incompetence or the HST are going to stick to the Ontario Liberals.

The Liberals will be rewarded for being Liberals...the only question will be the turn out...24%?

[capricorn]

"What a great night to be a McGuinty Liberal," Murray said after his victory."

Dalton was also jubilant: "What a wonderful way to begin Ontario politics in 2010."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2010/02/04/tor-toronto-centre-election.html

That "I love me" feeling must be grand.

At deadline, Murray was leading with 46% of the vote with 274 out of 292 polls reporting — a resounding lead despite a difficult campaign and a strong NDP challenger.

NDP candidate Cathy Crowe nearly doubled the party’s usual showing in the riding, while two-time PC Pamela Taylor saw her support soften over her last run.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/02/04/12747496.html

I read somewhere voter turnout was about 28 percent.

[PIK]

He ran the place into the ground ,is killing our health care, made bob rae look like a genius, his HST is going to cause great harm to alot of people and he could easily adjust it to help people but won't and the great people of toronto keeps voting for him. Now wonder the rest of the country has no respect for toronto.

[madmax]

He ran the place into the ground ,is killing our health care, made bob rae look like a genius, his HST is going to cause great harm to alot of people and he could easily adjust it to help people but won't and the great people of toronto keeps voting for him. Now wonder the rest of the country has no respect for toronto.

Well, it looks like the majority here called it. And I gotta say, I am totally baffled by Torontos voting pattern. Not that this wasn't predictable, its just ....

Well read the above quote.. pretty much says it all.

[Shakeyhands]

Well, it looks like the majority here called it. And I gotta say, I am totally baffled by Torontos voting pattern. Not that this wasn't predictable, its just ....

Well read the above quote.. pretty much says it all.

See: Ontario 1995-2003.

And then the rest of you gave them the keys to Ottawa.... talk about being baffled.

[Oleg Bach]

"What a great night to be a McGuinty Liberal," Murray said after his victory."

Dalton was also jubilant: "What a wonderful way to begin Ontario politics in 2010."

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2010/02/04/tor-toronto-centre-election.html

That "I love me" feeling must be grand.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/02/04/12747496.html

I read somewhere voter turnout was about 28 percent.

It will be even less this time - even the middle class is broke and getting depressed - the last thing on their minds will be the political ambtions of others as their own ambtions darken.

[PIK]

So in the ottawa buy election where alot of nortel workers live ,all of a sudden the libs come out with a plan to help pay thier pensions, something he could have done or said no to 9 months ago, go figure and then in one in TO I think it was, he just found 15 million for that area's hospital. go figure.

[Wild Bill]

Well, it looks like the majority here called it. And I gotta say, I am totally baffled by Torontos voting pattern. Not that this wasn't predictable, its just ....

Well read the above quote.. pretty much says it all.

It's really not that baffling, Max! Toronto is a totally different culture than not just the rest of Ontario but perhaps the rest of the country. It really should be its own province.

Toronto cares about Toronto. It believes to its very core that what's good for Toronto is good for everywhere else, or at least, it SHOULD be so people everywhere else should not complain!

Toronto has become accustomed to entitlement. It gets extra money from the province or the feds no matter how badly it screws up its own budget. It can cheerfully buy streetcars from union shops in Sudbury at twice the price of other sources and have other governments bail them out for the price difference, with taxes collected from citizens who DON'T live in Toronto!

It's not likely to ever change. Why should it? It's all about the seats they can deliver! The way things are, Toronto folks can vote themselves bread and circuses forever, counting on others to pay for it. In return the Liberals and to a certain extent the NDP will receive their votes.

Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose...

[madmax]

Toronto has become accustomed to entitlement. It gets extra money from the province or the feds no matter how badly it screws up its own budget. It can cheerfully buy streetcars from union shops in Sudbury at twice the price of other sources and have other governments bail them out for the price difference, with taxes collected from citizens who DON'T live in Toronto!

I was with you until this part. This is the best decision for Toronto and for Ontario and for the people. I would be interested in seeing you prove that streetcars can be purchased for 1/2 the cost that Toronto is paying. This is more like a bitter pill for you and a stereotype.

I am certain you would rather not see the work go to Hamilton SteelCar either. But hey that's another 1000 workers/welders that can get on the dole in Hamilton. Perhaps you wanted the work to be done in Georgia or SC or Texas or Kentucky. Yeah, thats better. Lets not have any spending in Sudbury. That's just stupid.

Pissing money away to purchase offshore to save a nickel costs us a fortune.

1/2 price.... If you can Prove that the cost is TWICE as much.

I will defer the argument to you.

[Wild Bill]

I was with you until this part. This is the best decision for Toronto and for Ontario and for the people. I would be interested in seeing you prove that streetcars can be purchased for 1/2 the cost that Toronto is paying. This is more like a bitter pill for you and a stereotype.

I am certain you would rather not see the work go to Hamilton SteelCar either. But hey that's another 1000 workers/welders that can get on the dole in Hamilton. Perhaps you wanted the work to be done in Georgia or SC or Texas or Kentucky. Yeah, thats better. Lets not have any spending in Sudbury. That's just stupid.

Pissing money away to purchase offshore to save a nickel costs us a fortune.

1/2 price.... If you can Prove that the cost is TWICE as much.

I will defer the argument to you.

Most strange, Max! I distinctly remember following the streetcar deal a few years back. It had a lot of coverage in the NP. Howard Moscoe, one of their councillors, was always featured front and centre for insisting on giving the order to Sudbury/Bombardier to make it a union contract. The pricing quoted was double.

Now I just spent 20 minutes googling the web and searching the NP site. I find NO mention of this at all!

I find this very odd!

"Down the memory hole, Winston?"

[M.Dancer]

Most strange, Max! I distinctly remember following the streetcar deal a few years back. It had a lot of coverage in the NP. Howard Moscoe, one of their councillors, was always featured front and centre for insisting on giving the order to Sudbury/Bombardier to make it a union contract. The pricing quoted was double.

Now I just spent 20 minutes googling the web and searching the NP site. I find NO mention of this at all!

I find this very odd!

"Down the memory hole, Winston?"

Use better search terms....

The real question, after the St clair fiasco etc, do we really need such spiffy street cars? I have no problem believing that a non luxary street car would be cheaper....and that we probably don't evben need 1/2 the number we are buying...

[madmax]

Most strange, Max! I distinctly remember following the streetcar deal a few years back. It had a lot of coverage in the NP. Howard Moscoe, one of their councillors, was always featured front and centre for insisting on giving the order to Sudbury/Bombardier to make it a union contract. The pricing quoted was double.

What you have read are Toronto Sun Distortions of the truth. Not unusual.

1) German Siemans was inline with a proposal.

2) Bombarier was inline with a proposal.

3) Tram was inline with a proposal.

4) Moscow and many others supported the work being done in Ontario. (GOOD FOR THEM)

5) Siemans drops out without bidding because they were wasting their time and knew that based on the technical requirements would not be able to submit a competitive bid vs Bombardier.

6) Tram was a small company and wasn't expected to be able to meet the requirements.

7) The reason the COSTS DOUBLED to the city is that the Federal Government Purposely choose not to support the city of Toronto need for these subway cars. Thus the costs DOUBLED only to the City of Toronto. Shame on the Feds for punishing Toronto when they actually could have helped and likely made a breakthrough with some goodwill.

But if you really want to get messed up with facts, the Toronto Sun is perfect as it always takes a story and skews it with a political stance.

8) The Tender is from Bombardier not a Union.

However, I knew you would source or attempt to source the articles. I know you not to make stuff up and what you are referring to, I have also read and couldn't find those same articles. I know what you are talking about. And while I also agree that there are articles out there somewhere supporting your position, I didn't believe those articles had any proof, but I couldn't remember.

In a nutshell, FYI, I was prepared to eat some crow on this and it is possible that you can source those references.

But I will leave it with the facts as I know them.

Moving on.....

Nortel gets pension moneys that were protected bylaw.

Thank the Ontario Liberals for waffling for over 1 year on their own obligations. Shame!!! But its a by election Opportunist move to offer something that was designed to protect those whos pensions were in jeapardy.

If the government paid enough attention, they should be making certain that Nortel has the funds to pay that pension and quite frankly, it is likely that they do have the monies and the government would be on the hook for NOTHING!!!

Edited February 11, 2010 by madmax

[Michael Hardner]

If the government paid enough attention, they should be making certain that Nortel has the funds to pay that pension and quite frankly, it is likely that they do have the monies and the government would be on the hook for NOTHING!!!

It's pretty unbelievable that that was allowed to happen. The Nortel employees likely never thought that that kind of shaft could ever happen to them in Canada, with a major employer like that involved.

They should have engaged a PR firm right off the bat but they missed the boat on that.

[Wild Bill]

What you have read are Toronto Sun Distortions of the truth. Not unusual.

But if you really want to get messed up with facts, the Toronto Sun is perfect as it always takes a story and skews it with a political stance.

However, I knew you would source or attempt to source the articles. I know you not to make stuff up and what you are referring to, I have also read and couldn't find those same articles. I know what you are talking about. And while I also agree that there are articles out there somewhere supporting your position, I didn't believe those articles had any proof, but I couldn't remember.

In a nutshell, FYI, I was prepared to eat some crow on this and it is possible that you can source those references.

But I will leave it with the facts as I know them.

Well, I didn't think about searching the Sun's site. I haven't consistently read the Sun since the NP was first formed. The Post stole a couple of the Sun's columnists who I always liked so I gravitated to them.

I've read two papers every day for maybe 30 years. I read the Post for national news and the Hamilton Spec so I can keep track of who died at home. And for something to wrap fish in!

I WAS perhaps the most dedicated Sun fan until after the early 90's, since the Sun too had first been formed. However, they kept watering down the Sunshine girl for my tastes. Much more politically correct but for me simply not as appealing. So I voted with my feet!

I have been getting the Sunday Sun for about 10 years. I had taken out a trial subscription in order to get a free electric razor. They've never sent me a bill and every Sunday for all these years a copy is there in my mailbox.

So since the Sun hasn't been as much of an influence on my reading I never thought to check them out for details on this issue.

Thanks for reminding me! I'll check it out.