UFC's Lesnar berates Canadian health care...

[bush_cheney2004]

It's not only black people....

Correct...it's even WHITE people in Newfoundland getting hosed:

October 2005. Health officials in Newfoundland and Labrador reveal there had been serious errors in breast cancer tests conducted on women in St. John's — and that they were suspending them for breast cancer patients. Tests on more than 1,000 women over the previous eight years were suspect, and had been sent to a hospital in Toronto for retesting.

[Guest American Woman]

I'm going to wait to hear their story before I pretend to know it.

I wasn't asking for their story; the questions were directed to you, in light of your claim to "know" how even the most reasonable Medigap insurance is "quite expensive in the US." I'd like to know what you "know" Medigap insurance costs and what you base your conclusion that it would be "the better option in terms of quality access vs. cost for them is to pay taxes to and utilize in Québec," keeping in mind that they would have $600,000 in their pocket just by selling the house that they don't want to live in.

[bush_cheney2004]

I wasn't asking for their story; the questions were directed to you, in light of your claim to "know" how even the most reasonable Medigap insurance is "quite expensive in the US."

Looks pretty cheap to me....if you shop around:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/insurance/p45537.asp

Like Americans, many Canadians do their best to cherry pick extremes to bolster their contentions. All is fair in love and war....OK...bring Shona Holmes in!

Edited February 5, 2010 by bush_cheney2004

[Guest American Woman]

Looks pretty cheap to me....if you shop around: ......

I know. That's why I'm curious what he thinks it costs-- especially in light of the fact that these people would have over half a million dollars from the sale of their home to put towards it. Seems to me it would be a minimal expense, considering-- even if they got the best coverage.

[dizzy]

I wasn't asking for their story; the questions were directed to you, in light of your claim to "know" how even the most reasonable Medigap insurance is "quite expensive in the US." I'd like to know what you "know" Medigap insurance costs and what you base your conclusion that it would be "the better option in terms of quality access vs. cost for them is to pay taxes to and utilize in Québec," keeping in mind that they would have $600,000 in their pocket just by selling the house that they don't want to live in.

If you checked my modest post count here, you might discover that I'm not out to defend my healthcare system nor berate yours. I'm talking elements in each that are good and bad. I certainly haven't fussed when people decided not to follow up on questions or positions I've posed...

For the record, their concern was 'preexisting'. I'm sorry that I can't provide more info at the moment. I will be pleased to share it with you when I have it. I'm moving in; I even have a avatar so I'll be here to explain when they do to me.

[Guest American Woman]

If you checked my modest post count here, you might discover that I'm not out to defend my healthcare system nor berate yours. I'm talking elements in each that are good and bad. I certainly haven't fussed when people decided not to follow up on questions or positions I've posed...

I've never said you were here for the purpose defending your health care or berating mine, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. I, too, am talking elements in each that are good and bad.

I just find your claim that people with a $600,000 house are better off holding on to it and living where they would rather not live because the health care is so good in Canada compared to what they would get here. It's in effect as ridiculous, unknowledgeable a statement regarding our Medicare/Medigap insurance as Lesnar's statement comparing Canada's health care to a third world country's was.

For the record, their concern was 'preexisting'. I'm sorry that I can't provide more info at the moment. I will be pleased to share it with you when I have it. I'm moving in; I even have a avatar so I'll be here to explain when they do to me.

Medigap insurance can't be denied because of "preexisting" conditions.

Again, I'm not asking for "more information" from them; I've made my points and asked for your response in regards to them, and that's all I'm asking for. If you don't care to comment, so be it.

Cheers.

[dizzy]

I just find your claim that people with a $600,000 house are better off holding on to it and living where they would rather not live because the health care is so good in Canada compared to what they would get here. It's in effect as ridiculous, unknowledgeable a statement regarding our Medicare/Medigap insurance as Lesnar's statement comparing Canada's health care to a third world country's was.

Again, I'm not asking for "more information" from them; I've made my points and asked for your response in regards to them, and that's all I'm asking for. If you don't care to comment, so be it.

Cheers.

For the sake of ending the singular focus onthis one point, I will bow to your point that I'm 'choosing' to not comment. I know you're asking for more info, which I won't provide in this moment without either:

a. consulting them (I will, when I see them in a few months); or

b. fabricating the story (I'll save my lying for life-saving situations)

It was really an anecdote not meant for much more than to reiterate the point that not everyone gets served by the american system and that income is not the only barrier. A lot is shared in forums based on the assumption that info is competent. I don't have nay way of knowing that you're american or a woman, despite your name, or that you have parents who needed medical help. But there's nothing to be gained by not believing it's true.

So, maybe the part of the problem lies in focusing our comments to the others' reality. Could you share with us what areas of the american system you feel need to be improved?

[dizzy]

So, maybe the part of the problem lies in focusing our comments to the others' reality. Could you share with us what areas of the american system you feel need to be improved?

:crickets:

hmm, that's what I thought.

[Guest American Woman]

:crickets:

hmm, that's what I thought.

Why should I share what areas I think need to be improved when you won't answer the questions I've asked you? So, like you, I'm 'choosing' to not comment.

You keep trying to make it about your neighbors, but I've said outright as clearly as can be that my questions aren't about them; they're about the comments you made about what you "know" about medigap.

[dizzy]

Why should I share what areas I think need to be improved when you won't answer the questions I've asked you? So, like you, I'm 'choosing' to not comment.

You keep trying to make it about your neighbors, but I've said outright as clearly as can be that my questions aren't about them; they're about the comments you made about what you "know" about medigap.

I'm totally wrong for ever mentioning them. I completely retract everything I said about them. There, poof, gone.

Still, I've offered a lot of very specific criticisms and complements throughout this thread for both systems. On the other hand, you and BC have been very vocal about the failures of the canadian system, but quite quiet about your own...

[Guest American Woman]

I'm totally wrong for ever mentioning them. I completely retract everything I said about them. There, poof, gone.

Again, it's not about them. It's about what YOU said you "know" about medigap. That has nothing to do with them. So yeah, zap, they're gone, but your beliefs regarding what you "know" about medigap aren't. Can't retract that.

Still, I've offered a lot of very specific criticisms and complements throughout this thread for both systems. On the other hand, you and BC have been very vocal about the failures of the canadian system, but quite quiet about your own...

Since the thread is about the Canadian system, stands to reason people would be "vocal" about the Canadian system, wouldn't you think?

However, just as I apparently missed your compliments for the U.S. system, apparently you've missed my criticisms of the U.S. system.

[dizzy]

Again, it's not about them. It's about what YOU said you "know" about medigap. That has nothing to do with them. So yeah, zap, they're gone, but your beliefs regarding what you "know" about medigap aren't. Can't retract that.

I guess you're confused about the meaning behind me saying I'm totally wrong. I'm totally fine being wrong. Especially if it helps move the discussion forward. I maintain my offer that, if you're sincerely interested, I'll let you know more about their story when they return.

Since the thread is about the Canadian system, stands to reason people would be "vocal" about the Canadian system, wouldn't you think?

However, just as I apparently missed your compliments for the U.S. system, apparently you've missed my criticisms of the U.S. system.

Here's the lead from the OP article:

"Two months after nearly dying in the Canadian wilderness, UFC heavyweight champion Brock Lesnar is healthy and ready to fight – against challengers to his belt and against anyone advocating health care reform in the U.S." Sounds like a discussion about both systems to me. The rest of the thread definitely headed there. That and the thread is in in a forum called "Canada/United States Relations"...

[bush_cheney2004]

.... On the other hand, you and BC have been very vocal about the failures of the canadian system, but quite quiet about your own...

Nonsense....you haven't been here long enough to even know that. Don't confuse choices with failure.

[dizzy]

Nonsense....you haven't been here long enough to even know that. Don't confuse choices with failure.

I'm talking about this thread. Context is everything.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm talking about this thread. Context is everything.

..yes...even in this thread I have described US shortcomings. Except for this:

The United States has no equivalent experience with doctors fleeing the country in such large numbers...before...or now.

[Oleg Bach]

..yes...even in this thread I have described US shortcomings. Except for this:

The United States has no equivalent experience with doctors fleeing the country in such large numbers...before...or now.

Or actors or muscians or anyone else that can not fit the corporate mold that is very Victorian and oppressive in Canada. One of my daughters had and inoperable brain tumor when she was young - It took a very wise old doctor who was almost 70 years old to fix her and grant her a life of productiveness and joy. This old brain surgeon probably one of the best three in the world finally after his wife perished - Left the country to be welcomed by the Americans - Up here we dispose of our best either if they are too good or too old.

The one thing I can say about our medical system at that particular time that I am talking about - I would say that I a nobody managed under Canadian health care to wangle a surgeon that was as good or better than the one who treated the late Ted Kennedy ...Is it still the same here in Canada as far as equal and full treatment - ?? NO - we are over run by immigrant doctors that over charge and feel that all doctors that come to Canada should all be millionares. They pass patients around alike a commodity and serve themselves to the OHIP dollars..even if the treatment is not neccesary they rape the system mercilessly.

[dizzy]

..yes...even in this thread I have described US shortcomings. Except for this:

The United States has no equivalent experience with doctors fleeing the country in such large numbers...before...or now.

Canada does face a exit of doctors to the other jurisdictions but it is not in large numbers.

http://www.chsrf.ca/mythbusters/html/myth29_e.php

I think the perception of 'problem' here has more to do with a misguided sense of ownership that comes from those doctors' subsidized education. I don't blame them nor consider it an issue that doctors head for the bigger bucks on the american frontier or anywhere else. Indeed, the american system is facing a big problem with internal drain for the same reason... doctors leave their posts for more lucrative gigs as specialists.

The real problem with the Canadian system on this front has more to do with the unwillingness of our medical bodies to recognize foreign credentials.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=ff90ad9a-27fc-40e5-bd16-369bb739f6fe&k=68609

We've got thousands of doctors driving taxis while only a few dozen residency positions are made available each year. If governments are serious about increasing the numbers of doctors within their provinces, they only need to look within and, more importantly, have the will to confront the professional bodies who are keeping them from practising.

[Guest American Woman]

I'm talking about this thread. Context is everything.

I, too, was talking about this thread.

As I said earlier, in this thread, For Americans who don't have insurance and can't afford health care, then Canada would provide better treatment. For those with good insurance, then the U.S. would provide better treatment. Therein lies the problem; people don't want to give up what they have for less.

And I believe everyone has the right to health care. I do believe in public health care, but I believe in a choice along with it. I don't agree with no private option.

So obviously I'm critical of our health care because we don't make it available to everyone. I do believe in public health care, I've made that clear, so that's obviously my biggest criticism about our health care system.

Edited February 14, 2010 by American Woman

[dizzy]

I, too, was talking about this thread.

As I said earlier, in this thread, For Americans who don't have insurance and can't afford health care, then Canada would provide better treatment. For those with good insurance, then the U.S. would provide better treatment. Therein lies the problem; people don't want to give up what they have for less.

And I believe everyone has the right to health care. I do believe in public health care, but I believe in a choice along with it. I don't agree with no private option.

So obviously I'm critical of our health care because we don't make it available to everyone. I do believe in public health care, I've made that clear, so that's obviously my biggest criticism about our health care system.

I saw this somewhere. It's just an info graphic but it offers an interesting perspective to support your comment:

http://www.fastcompany.com/1544692/infographic-lack-of-healthcare-vs-terrorism-which-one-kills-more

Are you a fan of Obama's original plan? What do you think about the plan that's currently going through?

[Guest American Woman]

I saw this somewhere. It's just an info graphic but it offers an interesting perspective to support your comment:

http://www.fastcompany.com/1544692/infographic-lack-of-healthcare-vs-terrorism-which-one-kills-more

Are you a fan of Obama's original plan? What do you think about the plan that's currently going through?

I have a problem with that graph for a number of reasons. As I've stated in this thread, I have a problem with bare statistics.

As for Obama's original plan, I've made it clear that I'm not a fan at all, as it's not a health care plan. As for what the plan's currently going through, you'll have to be more specific in order for me to be able to comment.

[Oleg Bach]

I have a problem with that graph for a number of reasons. As I've stated in this thread, I have a problem with bare statistics.

As for Obama's original plan, I've made it clear that I'm not a fan at all, as it's not a health care plan. As for what the plan's currently going through, you'll have to be more specific in order for me to be able to comment.

I will specify, OBAMA is a white guy..doing the bidding of the fst white estsblishment. Who do you think put him in power? Black people//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////not likely.

[dizzy]

I have a problem with that graph for a number of reasons. As I've stated in this thread, I have a problem with bare statistics.

As for Obama's original plan, I've made it clear that I'm not a fan at all, as it's not a health care plan. As for what the plan's currently going through, you'll have to be more specific in order for me to be able to comment.

Anecdotes are equally uninformative without context. You have to be willing to absorb both.

As far as I'm concerned, a health insurance scheme is the first step toward a health care plan for those who do not have access, at least for those who do not have either. Baby steps. What did you not like about Obama's plan?

[Oleg Bach]

Anecdotes are equally uninformative without context. You have to be willing to absorb both.

As far as I'm concerned, a health insurance scheme is the first step toward a health care plan for those who do not have access, at least for those who do not have either. Baby steps. What did you not like about Obama's plan?

Our health care plan has failed because a monopoly has formed. You can not get a family doctor if your life depended on it. That is not because of a shortage of doctors but an over abundance of wealth and patients. One doctor sends a single patient too five of his friends and they run the tests looking for an illness that does not materialize. Our emergency rooms are clogged with lonely people who come for a hug and kind word...some seek human contact in any intimate form they can get. Doctors fit the bill---------------NOW instead of sickness we have a new Orwellian term called wellness and people are treated for that- under the guise of preventative care.

[dizzy]

Our health care plan has failed because a monopoly has formed. You can not get a family doctor if your life depended on it. That is not because of a shortage of doctors but an over abundance of wealth and patients. One doctor sends a single patient too five of his friends and they run the tests looking for an illness that does not materialize. Our emergency rooms are clogged with lonely people who come for a hug and kind word...some seek human contact in any intimate form they can get. Doctors fit the bill---------------NOW instead of sickness we have a new Orwellian term called wellness and people are treated for that- under the guise of preventative care.

The wellness mantra has good moments, but I do agree that it has more to do with the pursuit of immortality and a mechanism of social control than it does anything sincerely human. That said, I don't have a family doctor. I have two. My main doctor is where I live in Quebec but I keep a file with a doctor in nearby Ottawa where I lived for a short while. I've never had any issues accessing either (last time I walked into my ottawa docs office, with no appointment and nothing more than a nasty cough, I was served within the hour). When I recently got a higher than normal blip on my LDLs I was given a nutritionist, not a drug prescription. I'm happy that the system still actively supports behaviour modification over tests, drugs and surgical interventions; it respects my power to effect my own condition.

There are a lot of lonely people in emergency care. Still, your post is not indictment on our healthcare system but on the poverty of affluence that inflicts the entire west. We are the richest yet we are the loneliest.

[Oleg Bach]

The wellness mantra has got to do with marketing and the commericalization of health care - with the sickness mantra - profits were 50% - combined now with the wellness sickness mantra - which is also 50% - we have 100%...and climbing sleazy privatiztion of idiots who love being patients because it is for free in their minds.