Flahrety Budget 2010, what gives?

[nicky10013]

The military does not act without instructions from the government, and that includes the PM. It also includes coordination between the various ministries, also through Ministers. That's how things work.

Yes, no one has denied that. In fact, even I've said that. Harper says yes and everything goes forward. Nothing else has been done. If you think that's a fair response then I really don't know what to tell you.

[ToadBrother]

The military does not act without instructions from the government, and that includes the PM. It also includes coordination between the various ministries, also through Ministers. That's how things work.

Of course it doesn't. But it can go on alert, which means everyone is at the ready. And if the various ministries haven't already got plans in place (as seems to have happened in Katrina) it matters little how skillful the politicians are.

But the unseemly part is the whole idea that the Tories will now recover some points, now that 50,000 Haitians have so nicely found a way to die tragically.

[nicky10013]

Of course it doesn't. But it can go on alert, which means everyone is at the ready. And if the various ministries haven't already got plans in place (as seems to have happened in Katrina) it matters little how skillful the politicians are.

But the unseemly part is the whole idea that the Tories will now recover some points, now that 50,000 Haitians have so nicely found a way to die tragically.

Bingo.

Besides, isn't DART a 36 hour rapid response force? There doesn't need to be any coordination between ministries. Everything is packed and ready to go, they just need to be told where to go and for how long. Everything else is done by the military.

[ToadBrother]

Bingo.

Besides, isn't DART a 36 hour rapid response force? There doesn't need to be any coordination between ministries. Everything is packed and ready to go, they just need to be told where to go and for how long. Everything else is done by the military.

Unless the Feds truly are incompetent, of course various branches know how to prep even prior to orders from above. Can you imagine having a system that only starts its engines once the Minister or senior bureaucrats give the signal? I doubt very much that any of these things suddenly popped into existence after 2006.

I guess that must be the new talking points for the astroturfers. "Drop all this talk about needing to get away from Parliament to fix the economy. Now declare 'Haiti saved by Harper's incredible skills!' Expect 5 point jump in polls by end of month."

[capricorn]

Besides, isn't DART a 36 hour rapid response force? There doesn't need to be any coordination between ministries. Everything is packed and ready to go, they just need to be told where to go and for how long.

Military aircraft and the DART can only deploy if they have somewhere to land. Normal operations at Haiti's airport were initially impossible. No flights in, no flights out. I have tremendous confidence in our military's competence and preparedness but they are not the only actors in pulling off such complex operations.

[nicky10013]

Military aircraft and the DART can only deploy if they have somewhere to land. Normal operations at Haiti's airport were initially impossible. No flights in, no flights out. I have tremendous confidence in our military's competence and preparedness but they are not the only actors in pulling off such complex operations.

Yeah, of course, it was the US Army and Air Force that opened things up. You think Harper picked up the phone and everything started working again? No of course, you're not stupid enough to think that. You implied it, though, which means you think other people are.

[ToadBrother]

No. It was me. And yes, his response is a reflection of leadership skills. Sucks, eh?

Your response reflects glee that 50,000 people died so that Harper might look a little more leader-like and regain some polling ground.

To my mind, it matters little who was in office. Assistance would have been sent.

Harper is a good leader in a certain narrow tactical sense, not in any grand-unifying sense. He's too mean spirited and small minded. He had vision once, even if it wasn't a vision I particularly agreed with on all points, but now he's become what power turns so many into, simply a player of a game whose sole goal is the maintenance and increase of personal power. What he needs is not more emotional prostitutes like yourself and his caucus, throwing themselves at his feet, but people who can tell him the blunt truth; that he's reckless and arrogant, and in no position to be either. If Canadians don't want an election as he asserts, it's also clear they don't want a Prime Minister he clearly fears Parliament.

[ToadBrother]

Yeah, of course, it was the US Army and Air Force that opened things up. You think Harper picked up the phone and everything started working again? No of course, you're not stupid enough to think that. You implied it, though, which means you think other people are.

I don't want to minimize what we're doing, but what the Americans are throwing at the problem makes our contribution pale. I mean that friggin' aircraft carrier they're sending there can produce 100,000 gallons of potable water a day! We'll do our part. We would have done our part if Jean Chretien was PM, Paul Martin was PM or Stephen Harper was PM. Of course it's too much to ask politicians to just do something without trying to make it self-aggrandizing. In the States people are talking "Oooh, this will make us look good on the international scene again...", ignoring the fact that at least some of Haiti's misery was caused by Americans in the first place.

If human life; its loss and the misery of its survivors, is nothing more than a way for a government in hot water over issues at home to try to bump its approval ratings, then we're a pitiful and small-minded civilization. If Harper wants to impress me, he won't do it by taking credit, he'll do it by trying to govern, and by bloody well respecting the will of Parliament, even if it means he gets stung for it. The people of Haiti should not be the coin that ailing leaders buy political capital with. Period.

[punked]

lol...

The NDP can, however, be trusted with our finances?

No I said they poll poorly as well there. That might be why they don't run elections on it. You run to your strengths. Keep up with the thread please.

[capricorn]

Your response reflects glee that 50,000 people died so that Harper might look a little more leader-like and regain some polling ground.

Your interpretation of my response reflects that you are incapable of unemotional analysis of the aspects of events that shape politics. Yes people died and are suffering, and this human tragedy is not lost on me. I posted my thoughts on the human suffering aspect of this catastrophy on another thread dedicated for that purpose. Of course, you must know that because you posted on that same thread.

So I'll repeat it again. The Conservatives stand to gain because of the leadership Harper displayed in handling Canada's response to the earthquake and the fine work done by his Cabinet and officials. If in your eyes that makes me an emotional prostitute, well I can only tell you I'm too tough skinned to let name calling get to me. Good try anyway.

[ToadBrother]

Your interpretation of my response reflects that you are incapable of unemotional analysis of the aspects of events that shape politics. Yes people died and are suffering, and this human tragedy is not lost on me. I posted my thoughts on the human suffering aspect of this catastrophy on another thread dedicated for that purpose. Of course, you must know that because you posted on that same thread.

So I'll repeat it again. The Conservatives stand to gain because of the leadership Harper displayed in handling Canada's response to the earthquake and the fine work done by his Cabinet and officials. If in your eyes that makes me an emotional prostitute, well I can only tell you I'm too tough skinned to let name calling get to me. Good try anyway.

Translation: I hope this is coin sufficient to buy Harper better polling numbers.

[fellowtraveller]

No. It was me. And yes, his response is a reflection of leadership skills. Sucks, eh?

there you have it.

Time for Toady and Nicky to apologize, though their limited character likely won't permit it.

I liked Harper making a spectacle of his personal donation to the Red Cross, since it was accompanied by a government promise to match any funds given by inidividuals. You have to be an utter arsehole to think that is partisan, since the net result will be an increase in donations that will end up in Haiti.

[DrGreenthumb]

there you have it.

Time for Toady and Nicky to apologize, though their limited character likely won't permit it.

I liked Harper making a spectacle of his personal donation to the Red Cross, since it was accompanied by a government promise to match any funds given by inidividuals. You have to be an utter arsehole to think that is partisan, since the net result will be an increase in donations that will end up in Haiti.

Thats BS, Harper is using this tragedy as just another photo-op to try and distract people from his attack on our democratic system. He knows people have had enough of him and probably thanked his God for the distraction.

Next thing you know he will be on a plane to Haiti to drag out a body from the rubble, news crew in tow of course.

[wyly]

there you have it.

Time for Toady and Nicky to apologize, though their limited character likely won't permit it.

I liked Harper making a spectacle of his personal donation to the Red Cross, since it was accompanied by a government promise to match any funds given by inidividuals. You have to be an utter arsehole to think that is partisan, since the net result will be an increase in donations that will end up in Haiti.

absolutely partisan photo-op...smiling steve gives money and the cameras just happen to be there waiting for him oh ya that's just a co-incidence, ...he's trying to save his neck after his prorogue miscalculation and has no qualms using someone else's misfortune for his own personal gain...a politician has to be an utter arsewhole to use someone's suffering for his benefit...

GWB would refuse to allow cameras when he did such things, he didn't want it look as if he were using the event for his personal political gain...

this is a issue where you get no points for doing what is expected, but where you lose points for not doing something...

[ToadBrother]

there you have it.

Time for Toady and Nicky to apologize, though their limited character likely won't permit it.

Apologize for what? Neither of us were the ones that initially made the "This is good for Harper" sounds.

I liked Harper making a spectacle of his personal donation to the Red Cross, since it was accompanied by a government promise to match any funds given by inidividuals. You have to be an utter arsehole to think that is partisan, since the net result will be an increase in donations that will end up in Haiti.

Then why did you make the noise about it improving Harper's stance? Please don't shove your own crap on to other people. Maybe you should apologize.

[fellowtraveller]

Apologize for what? Neither of us were the ones that initially made the "This is good for Harper" sounds.

neither did I(see above) , so man up.

[blueblood]

Thats BS, Harper is using this tragedy as just another photo-op to try and distract people from his attack on our democratic system. He knows people have had enough of him and probably thanked his God for the distraction.

Next thing you know he will be on a plane to Haiti to drag out a body from the rubble, news crew in tow of course.

Just like Chretien pitching sandbags in '97. People in glass houses...

[ToadBrother]

Just like Chretien pitching sandbags in '97. People in glass houses...

Good thing I never voted for the Liberals back then.

[fellowtraveller]

Good thing I never voted for the Liberals back then.

Was it Adscam that convinced you to vote for them now?

[ToadBrother]

Was it Adscam that convinced you to vote for them now?

I haven't decided who I'll vote for. I have little desire to vote for any of the three main parties. If a decent (as in "not a complete screwball") independent candidate were to appear, I'd probably put my vote there.

[nicky10013]

there you have it.

Time for Toady and Nicky to apologize, though their limited character likely won't permit it.

I liked Harper making a spectacle of his personal donation to the Red Cross, since it was accompanied by a government promise to match any funds given by inidividuals. You have to be an utter arsehole to think that is partisan, since the net result will be an increase in donations that will end up in Haiti.

So it's no coincidence that they've been trying to hide from this prorogation story since new years yet the minute this disaster happens, there are press people at the red cross watching Stevie hand over a 20 smiling as he did it. Not to mention Mackay criss crossing the country from Halifax to Quebec to Ontario trying to get any picture he can with himself, camoflauge and the words Haiti relief in it. Please. It's not being apologetic. We can disagree about policy but this is just pure political trash.

The Conservatives don't like the questions they get on Afghanistan, shut it down, accuse the opposition of attacking the troops which is spit in the face #1 to the troops. Now, when their political fortunes are on the ropes, trying to profit politically by the good reaction of the troops is spit in the face #2.

I don't care who you are. You could be Michael Ignatieff, Stephen Harper, Jean Chretien or whoever. Trying to get a bump in the polls off of the deaths of over 50,000 people is just wrong.

Edited January 19, 2010 by nicky10013

[capricorn]

So it's no coincidence that they've been trying to hide from this prorogation story since new years yet the minute this disaster happens, there are press people at the red cross watching Stevie hand over a 20 smiling as he did it.

Harper made his donation on January 14. If you look at the spike in donations to the Red Cross in the following days (the daily tallies were shown on the National tonight) you'll see a substantial increase in subsequent total donations. I'm not saying that Harper's publicized gesture alone is responsible for this but it is possible that it worked in a positive way. Can you disprove that publicizing Harper's donation didn't have a positive impact in those donations?

Not to mention Mackay criss crossing the country from Halifax to Quebec to Ontario trying to get any picture he can with himself, camoflauge and the words Haiti relief in it. Please. It's not being apologetic. We can disagree about policy but this is just pure political trash.

You know what I think burns you? It is that you were reveling at the accusations that Harper and the Conservatives gave themselves an extended holiday. But then when a historic international disaster occurs, the Conservatives are on top of the job and getting praise for it. Isn't it too bad that your anti-Harper/Conservative message has been derailed by an unforeseen disaster. Them's the breaks. I'm sure the opposition shares your disappointment.

The Conservatives don't like the questions they get on Afghanistan, shut it down, accuse the opposition of attacking the troops which is spit in the face #1 to the troops. Now, when their political fortunes are on the ropes, trying to profit politically by the good reaction of the troops is spit in the face #2.

Well, spit in the face number 3 is using the troops to make your point that you despise the government.

I don't care who you are. You could be Michael Ignatieff, Stephen Harper, Jean Chretien or whoever. Trying to get a bump in the polls off of the deaths of over 50,000 people is just wrong.

You may think that's the motive. Fine. But what will matter is how Canadians ultimately judge the government's response to the Haiti earthquake.

Edited January 19, 2010 by capricorn

[msdogfood]

I suspect there are two budgets in the works. One will be the "mid-to-high 30s" budget, which will be a veritable mine field of cuts and policies guaranteed to blow up in the Opposition's face.

The other is the "below-35" budget, which, while still austere in some regards, will generally possess the properties of a delightful scented flower, pure and spring-like, with narry an opposable section in it.

They won't know until the pre-Throne Speech polls come out at the end of February which one they'll put on the table. Perhaps that's why Flaherty needs time away from Parliament. Creating two sets of books can be kind of tough, especially with jerks like Kevin Page around.

having Page around is very very good!!!

Edited January 19, 2010 by msdogfood

[William Ashley]

I'm not saying that Harper's publicized gesture alone is responsible for this but it is possible that it worked in a positive way.

You'd be a total idiot if you thought that.

But then when a historic international disaster occurs,

It is hardly historic.

the Conservatives are on top of the job and getting praise for it.

Top job is a laugh the response is totally blown out of proportion. There is no need for 2000 Canadian forces personnel to be deployed to haiti, they actually represent a resource drain and millions of dollars in unneeded federal spending.

There is no need for 2000 Canadian forces personnel and support staff to be in Haiti. The millions of dollars in their support and inflow boarding and leave could of been put to help Haitians in the form of actual aid, or been spent in Canada to pay down the debt.

Leave aid to private donation, don't force people to donate to foreign aid, for a country that has hardly if ever given anything to Canada. The millions and millions of dollars are millions of dollars Canadians don't have. If people want to donate fine for them, but Canada is a country in Debt and is falling more and more each day. Money to Haitians is less money to the close to 1 in 10 Canadians out of work, or the people depending on the food banks which are low in supplies. CANADIANS FIRST!

Did Harper respond to get Hydro back up and running in the provinces NO.. HE NEEDS TO OPEN HIS EYES TO CANADIAN DISASTERS!!! CANADA FIRST!! Millions to the third world and not a penny to the domestic poor and in need!! AND MORE SERVICES CUT.. so they can pay for a country getting more foreign aid then their previous GDP.

CANADA FIRST!!! Let the people privately donate to the third world, while poverty in Canada still exists. The Canadian public poor should be the first to get aid from tax dollars!! Erradicate poverty in Canada first.

When will the military build roads and buildings in Canada rather than in foreign countries? Why are our supplies and equipment going to foreign countries when we have more domestic issues that stay un attended and unsolved, or are outsourced at greater cost to the taxpayer. Canadians should be first! Canada should be first!

How can Harper look Canadians in the eyes when he sells off our public assets to foreign companies and cuts our services like EI, while giving the money to foreign countries! How can he betray Canada!! Canada has problems too.

Canada FIRST!

Where is this non budgetted money coming from. Parliament isn't around to fund this foreign aid? Where is the money for these governmental operations coming from? This was happening after anouncement of downsizing of the reserve forces in BC and cutting back flight times due to funding shortfalls in the CF, yet millions of dollars are going into this DART operation which has little or no domestic defence benefit. There are doctor shortages across Canada yet doctors are being sent to Haiti, since when is a Haitian life worth more than a Canadian life - Canadians die daily due to doctor shortages!

Why does Jacmel a city of 40,000 people need 2000 Canadian forces personnel!!! This is madness! That is 1 Canadian forces soilder for every 20 people in the city! That is a better number than most public school student teacher ratios! It is more ineffective and a greater waste of spending than Afghanistan!

On performance of our "emergency response personnel and their equipment"

"The have no surgery capability right now and that is the major problem," said Maj. Annie Bouchard, DART medical platoon commander. "Their anesthesia machine is broken and they have no supplies."

This is HORRIBLE PLANNING AND DEPLOYMENT!! The conduct and results of this operation are horrific and a shame to the CF. This while more forces and personnel are being sent to this already over budgetted and wrongly staffed operation.

Why not organize the mobs of violent protesters in a work force to fix their own country!

Edited January 19, 2010 by William Ashley

[capricorn]

You'd be a total idiot if you thought that.

Yet, you have no way to disprove it. What I offered is the sharp increase in donations in the immediate days following Harper's gesture which he followed up by an announcement that the government would match their donations.

It is hardly historic.

Tell that to Ignatieff.

Speaking to university students in Winnipeg, Ignatieff called the earthquake a "disaster of biblical proportions."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5j4uFHddGYOW7GKY9mgygGZYAXkHw

...and Hillary Clinton.

Haiti has endured a series of natural disasters and tragedies on a "biblical" scale, Hillary Clinton, the US Secretary of State said on Wednesday as she cut short an Asian trip to deal with the earthquake crisis.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/centralamericaandthecaribbean/haiti/6985180/Haiti-earthquake-Clinton-highlights-history-of-biblical-tragedies.html

Top job is a laugh the response is totally blown out of proportion. There is no need for 2000 Canadian forces personnel to be deployed to haiti, they actually represent a resource drain and millions of dollars in unneeded federal spending.

Be sure to let your opinion known to the Governor General.

There is no need for 2000 Canadian forces personnel and support staff to be in Haiti. The millions of dollars in their support and inflow boarding and leave could of been put to help Haitians in the form of actual aid, or been spent in Canada to pay down the debt.

---

Why does Jacmel a city of 40,000 people need 2000 Canadian forces personnel!!! This is madness! That is 1 Canadian forces soilder for every 20 people in the city! That is a better number than most public school student teacher ratios!

Jacmel will serve as a Forces control and command centre for an entire region. Do get your facts straight before spewing uninformed drivel.

Canada is dispatching another 1,000 troops to help the “historic” humanitarian operation underway in Haiti.

---

Military sources said the Canadian Forces are strongly considering making Jacmel — a city on the coast about 30 km south of Port-au-Prince — their base for operations. The Disaster Assistance Response Team and the 1,000 troops on their way will likely be based there.

United Nations says 84,000 people in the region were left homeless and urgently need water and surgeons to perform amputations.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/haiti/2010/01/17/12500811-qmi.html

As for the rest of your diatribe, it demonstrates a total lack of compassion for fellow humans in dire needs.