New Liberal Ads

[Jerry J. Fortin]

there's no difference. PMPM signed the agreement. Did he think the detainees would be tortured? no, no rational person would. Same goes for his little adventure with the US. Is there speculation (if not evidence) of torture being used at gitmo, yes. and the Liberals did nothing for how long?

Plus we have ignatieff who has published works justifying viewpoints that you guys consider the "right" to have. Show me where Harper published something saying he justifies torture.

Nobody in their right mind advocates torture, not Harper or Iggy or even Jack and Gilles. But that isn't the point is it? The point is to just muddy the waters at this point. This is the time to toss around bogus accusations. We all know how the game is played, there are no laws against it. Yet there should be. Wouldn't it be nice to have en election about the real issues? When was the last time that happened?

[myata]

I don't like negative politics but when you have a guy like Harper running the show, there isn't much positive. At least they stick to his policies and not attempt character assassination.

No,Iggy wont' call election over this issue: http://thechronicleherald.ca/Front/1161444.html. Respect for democracy, openness and transparency simply don't appear to be serious or important enough for him to "stoop". Scoring a few points and electing Iggy, is another story altogether. May be, himself crowned as PM, he'll find use, though doubtlessly, "do better" use, for the pathetically outdated quasi democracy we have now.

No, I think there's nothing to be gained from supporting Iggy in this scenario, it'll be same old, same old, forever. Are there any other options than to simply write off Canadian federal politics till both (Harper and Iggy) are out of picture, in whatever way it'll happen?

[madmax]

1) Add is well produced

2) Add targets Afghanstan inquiry

3) So What?

And that to me is the problem. As a first salvo, it should wind up the LPC base. Of course the stupid thing about anything related to Torture in Afghanistan is the the LPC government didn't address the problem during their term of office. Thus Harpers/McKays incompetence is merely a reflection of status quo.

3a) Ironically, the CPC response is pathetic. Its almost as if this party is joining Ignatieff in the wilderness. Here is an update. The Canadian Forces in Afghanistan didn't prorogue parliment. That is the actions of the Conservative government and no one else. The fact that the Conservatives hide their problems with proroguement and use the Canadian Forces as a defence to mask their own incompetence and lack of will to sit in parliment is disgraceful.

4) I agree that the General public isn't in tune to the Afghanistan inquiry and the adds are unlikely to change opinion or engagement.

5) If you want to know what has people pissed, its that the government isn't sitting in the house, its that they are doing photo ops in their ridings and going to the Olympics. So many CPC MPs have blown the message track.

[Keepitsimple]

There's a cartoon in here somewhere.....Ignatieff is beating Harper with a shoe.

[myata]

There's a cartoon in here somewhere.....Ignatieff is beating Harper with a shoe.

Like Punch and Polichinelle of old. And no hope. Sigh.

[nicky10013]

The sad thing is - they actually are. I was hoping they would change, but I've seen no indication of one. They're still as self-serving, dishonest and hypocritical as ever.

Then why are the Liberals held to a standard the Conservatives aren't? "Well, the LIBERALS did it first." It's partisanship by another name. If you want to vote Conservative then go ahead. Don't come up with lame excuses to justify voting for them.

[cybercoma]

Then why are the Liberals held to a standard the Conservatives aren't? "Well, the LIBERALS did it first." It's partisanship by another name. If you want to vote Conservative then go ahead. Don't come up with lame excuses to justify voting for them.

The Liberals did it first is not justification for the Conservatives, rather it's to show that neither party is any better than the other. Saying that the Liberals are better suited to run the country because Harper is doing these things doesn't make sense in that context. Moreover, Chretien shutting down the Somali inquiry is leaps and bounds more unethical than what Harper is doing.

[nicky10013]

1) Add is well produced

2) Add targets Afghanstan inquiry

3) So What?

And that to me is the problem. As a first salvo, it should wind up the LPC base. Of course the stupid thing about anything related to Torture in Afghanistan is the the LPC government didn't address the problem during their term of office. Thus Harpers/McKays incompetence is merely a reflection of status quo.

3a) Ironically, the CPC response is pathetic. Its almost as if this party is joining Ignatieff in the wilderness. Here is an update. The Canadian Forces in Afghanistan didn't prorogue parliment. That is the actions of the Conservative government and no one else. The fact that the Conservatives hide their problems with proroguement and use the Canadian Forces as a defence to mask their own incompetence and lack of will to sit in parliment is disgraceful.

4) I agree that the General public isn't in tune to the Afghanistan inquiry and the adds are unlikely to change opinion or engagement.

5) If you want to know what has people pissed, its that the government isn't sitting in the house, its that they are doing photo ops in their ridings and going to the Olympics. So many CPC MPs have blown the message track.

According to polls before all this happened, polls which no one seems to want to talk about, 6/10 people did care. Considering only 60% vote that's pretty stunning. Why does it speak to Canadians? Because we're at war. People are concerned about whether or not the policies of this government are going to lead to more coffins flown back to Canada. Even for the dumbest Canadian it's not hard to figure out that if we hand over people, innocent or not and they're tortured, it could end up leading to further radicalization. Nobody blames the troops as the government is claiming. People are concerned. That's it.

[nicky10013]

The Liberals did it first is not justification for the Conservatives, rather it's to show that neither party is any better than the other. Saying that the Liberals are better suited to run the country because Harper is doing these things doesn't make sense in that context. Moreover, Chretien shutting down the Somali inquiry is leaps and bounds more unethical than what Harper is doing.

My argument is that the party of Chretien is different than the party of Ignatieff. Saying they are and then pointing back 15 years isn't convincing enough. Sorry.

[ToadBrother]

Then why are the Liberals held to a standard the Conservatives aren't? "Well, the LIBERALS did it first." It's partisanship by another name. If you want to vote Conservative then go ahead. Don't come up with lame excuses to justify voting for them.

It's not just partisanship, it's apologetics, and a lowering of these lofty Conservative standards. They have repeatedly campaigned as the more ethical party, and yet their defense has ended up being "Don't complain, the other guys suck just as much too".

[myata]

And that differce being in the .. face. Yes. Nobody here (in the Iggy's circle) is calling for, leading or promising any meaningful change. No, they want the same old dusty system, exactly as it is, only all to themselves. When they'll get their hands on it, it'll be different, and "better".

I mean, what is the real and objective proof of that difference? What makes you think it really exists?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It's not just partisanship, it's apologetics, and a lowering of these lofty Conservative standards. They have repeatedly campaigned as the more ethical party, and yet their defense has ended up being "Don't complain, the other guys suck just as much too".

Good call, I agree.

[noahbody]

My argument is that the party of Chretien is different than the party of Ignatieff. Saying they are and then pointing back 15 years isn't convincing enough. Sorry.

There's very little difference, if any. Chetien and Ignatieff are very different people, but Ignatieff is led by the party. Don't forget he was appointed and how Dion was forced out.

[cybercoma]

My argument is that the party of Chretien is different than the party of Ignatieff. Saying they are and then pointing back 15 years isn't convincing enough. Sorry.

Who knows what the party of Ignatieff will be like, but I'm pretty concerned about a man who believes in using "coercive interrogations" while condemning his political opponents in the Afghan detainee issue. Furthermore, Ignatieff's glorification of his grandfather's exploits during the time of Western expansion is highly insulting to the people that were abused in the process. Ignatieff may or may not be as arrogant as Chretien era Liberals. So far, it seems likely that he is.

[cybercoma]

It's not just partisanship, it's apologetics, and a lowering of these lofty Conservative standards. They have repeatedly campaigned as the more ethical party, and yet their defense has ended up being "Don't complain, the other guys suck just as much too".

Harper has completely dropped the ball on his stance of accountability. He gags his MPs, closes the doors to the press, and now prorogues parliament. Harper has shown that he doesn't want to be accountable to anyone.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Harper has completely dropped the ball on his stance of accountability. He gags his MPs, closes the doors to the press, and now prorogues parliament. Harper has shown that he doesn't want to be accountable to anyone.

Yet he reflects the image of a strong leader which is favoured by a great many people. Especially those on the right.

[ToadBrother]

Harper has completely dropped the ball on his stance of accountability. He gags his MPs, closes the doors to the press, and now prorogues parliament. Harper has shown that he doesn't want to be accountable to anyone.

I can sympathize with Harper somewhat. The Reform wing of his party is filled with red neck types who would ban abortion and bring back anti-sodomy laws tomorrow if they got the chance. If he let them mouth off, he'd blow a hole in the side of his party a mile wide.

But the Conservative supporters here have yet to defend the 2008 prorogation, and defend the 2009 one by saying "Liberals did it all the time", when the only prorogation that seems to come close to fitting the bill here was when Chretien prorogued Parliament when Martin was set to take over to allow the new PM to have a clean slate. Since that hardly seems terribly like an evil act to get rid of Parliament, about the only thing it has in common is that there was some sort of a political rationale.

Make no mistake, Harper fears Parliament, and the trained sheep that make up his caucus are willingly collaborators in defying the will of Parliament. I just wish Iggy had the real balls to attempt to open Parliament up by going to the Bloc and the NDP and getting them to come back on January 25.

[myata]

Harper doesn't want to be held accountable (or even responsible). And Iggy sees no problem with that (his main problem is with who's at the helm). Only one of them can govern this country in the foreseable future.

The sad dilemma of our federal politics.

[capricorn]

My argument is that the party of Chretien is different than the party of Ignatieff.

Oh yeah? Peter Donollo was Chretien’s communication director when he shut down the Somalia inquiry. Guess who Ignatieff's Chief of Staff is. Peter Donollo. And that makes him the most powerful person in Ignatieff's office.

Here are the MPs in today's Liberal caucus that were around during Chretien's time.

Mauril Bélanger

Gerry Byrne

Stéphane Dion

Wayne Easter

Hedy Fry

Ralph Goodale

Jim Karygiannis

Derek Lee

Lawrence MacAulay

Dan McTeague

Peter Milliken

Geoff Regan

Paul Szabo

Joe Volpe

The top person in Iggy's office had quite a hand in Chretien's administration and 18% of the present caucus was also in office at the time. And that doesn't include remnants of the back room gang that has been present (but relatively unseen) in all those years.

There is one noticeable difference. The present leader speaks French with a Parisian accent while Le P'tit Gars de Shawinigan's French is peppered with the "joual" dialect. But at the core it's still the same old Liberals.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Harper doesn't want to be held accountable (or even responsible). And Iggy sees no problem with that (his main problem is with who's at the helm). Only one of them can govern this country in the foreseable future.

The sad dilemma of our federal politics.

Yes, unfortunately Iggy appears to be playing for time. I tend to agree that the right move is to toast Harper ASAP, but that is just me.

[myata]

The two (parties, and leaders) hold the country for a child of under three years of age. See dear, it's mashed potatoes here; or oats there. No, you can't have anything else. No, you can't get out of that chair. Both have lots wested in holding us firmly and steadily within the blindfold.

Harper won't have to respond to the elected majority. And Iggy would not as much as see the majority that is ultimately the only elected, legitimate representation of the people of this country. What a sad state of democracy! How pathetic and even desperate is that there isn't one darn thing that could be done about it..

[William Ashley]

Oh yeah? Peter Donollo was Chretien’s communication director when he shut down the Somalia inquiry.

They also disbanded the airborn regiment as a result of the issue.

[Wild Bill]

But the Conservative supporters here have yet to defend the 2008 prorogation, and defend the 2009 one by saying "Liberals did it all the time", when the only prorogation that seems to come close to fitting the bill here was when Chretien prorogued Parliament when Martin was set to take over to allow the new PM to have a clean slate. Since that hardly seems terribly like an evil act to get rid of Parliament, about the only thing it has in common is that there was some sort of a political rationale.

Make no mistake, Harper fears Parliament, and the trained sheep that make up his caucus are willingly collaborators in defying the will of Parliament. I just wish Iggy had the real balls to attempt to open Parliament up by going to the Bloc and the NDP and getting them to come back on January 25.

I suspect the real reason you don't hear a loud defense from the Conservatives on this board is that they don't consider it a big deal! It might be to you, or to many Canadians for that matter but I suspect that it's mostly important only to those who never liked Harper anyway.

If the issue does catch on with Canadians at large then of course it will be a different story. Harper and Harper supporters will be falling all over themselves with excuses and justifications. I rather doubt it will play out that way, myself. I still think the average Canadian just doesn't care, particularly when the issue of torturing Taliban prisoners is being hyped so much as the reason proroguing happened. It's very likely that the average Canadian not only couldn't care less if it happened and was Harper's fault, he approves of it! The popular view of Taliban fighters is one of mad dog fanatics that blow up bus loads of orphans just for the sheer glee of it. The average Joe Canadian thinks they're just animals who deserve no more consideration than they give to our soldiers!

Certainly, the people who gather on the overpasses of the 401 to witness our dead soldiers coming home are not too concerned if we handed over a few Taliban and they got some harsh treatment.

I'm more interested in how far Ignatieff is going to run with this. If it's really this big a deal it would really make him look lame ass if he didn't try to bring the government down when Parliament finally does open. Otherwise it will be perceived as the same old "tough talk but back down when challenged" scenario that cost the Liberals so much respect over last year. Partisan supporters might accept a "suck and blow at the same time" policy but Ignatieff needs to drum up new supporters to help his party make electoral gains.

As I said, I'm VERY interested in what he actually does when push comes to shove!

[ToadBrother]

I suspect the real reason you don't hear a loud defense from the Conservatives on this board is that they don't consider it a big deal! It might be to you, or to many Canadians for that matter but I suspect that it's mostly important only to those who never liked Harper anyway.

There is a loud defense from the Conservative supporters, of just about everything except the 2008 prorogation, precisely because they know there is no precedent in the modern history of our governing system for a minority government to run from a confidence motion by abusing a Reserve Power. Even those that agreed the GG had little choice but to listen to Harper felt that it was a horrible precedent, to the point where MacKay bizarrely tried to claim that it wasn't really a precedent at all (which either means he's a liar or doesn't actually understand how our system works).

[William Ashley]

I forgot to add though that the Somolia thing happened while Kim Campbell was Minister of defence - A conservative.... so things like the beating death and penis burning of the Somoli teen and deployment against officers warnings were done by the conservatives Not the liberals.

Edited January 11, 2010 by William Ashley