DND 1 Million Grant for Safe Boating Practices

[William Ashley]

Canadian Safe Boating Council Kenwick, Ontario, Canada 2009-04-17 $1,210,478.00

To develop a communication strategy designed to help change recreational boating behaviours on Canada's waterways. A comprehensive web site will be developed to house and distribute boating safety materials and information. [smart Boaters - Prevention in the First Degree

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This is odd to see a program through the department of defence for safe boating? Anyone thing this was the right department to process this grant? Or would another such as youth and sport or transport be more appropriate. Since it is "recreational boating". Also curious why thi program is pegged at 1.2 Million dollars? What is this communication strategy - anyone have more information on this program?

In the proactive disclosure there are MANY MANY fisheries grants - yet doesn't Canada have a ministry for Fisheries? Why are the grants being delivered via the DND?

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/fm-gp/index-eng.htm

???

Why is the DND funding all these million dollar fisheries programs?

Canadian Council of Professional Fish Harvesters Ottawa, Ontario, Canada 2009-04-16 $1,404,207.00

Canadian Safe Boating Council Kenwick, Ontario, Canada 2009-04-17 $1,210,478.00

BC Seafood Alliance Richmond, British Columbia, Canada 2009-04-21 $633,270.00

You may also wonder why BC is getting 90% of fisheries funding - it even shows in the DND funding PEI NB and Nova Scotia, are getting next to no fisheries funding as compared to BC? NFLD shows nothing as far as grants! Is the Atlantic fishery under a moratorium still?

Other programs are peculiar at best such as the half million dollar program in Ontario for

"A prevention initiative that will use a multi-faceted educational program aimed at informing, motivating and changing behaviour of primary target audience (male between 20 and 59 years old) to increase survival in cold water, as well as presenting the facts about the dangers of cold water in boating and outdoor winter activities on or near the ice."

You might ask why the DND is funding water survival education in the middle of Ontario? Was this half million dollars really in the interest of tax payers? Is it only Ontarians who are in need of water education? Why isn't this a federal program - perhaps there could be another approach to this such as letting the stupid ones drown? While Ice Fishing education is good, I don't see how this is a DND funding project or the rationality of one community - that is 1 community in ontario with a small population as having a half million dollar funding grant.

There are under 50,000 people in that community which means about 10$ spent on each person in that community to inform them how not to go out on lake ice and drown - have there been a lot of drownings on Lake simcoe in the winter? Why not just print a full newspaper and deliver it to everyones mailbox - surely this would cost less than 1/2 a million dollars?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keswick,_Ontario

Funding for Winter Ice Safety in Keswick $424,700.00

Population of Keswick 43,800

In a Department of National Defence Grant Program??

Edited January 9, 2010 by William Ashley

[Wilber]

Last summer I was out fishing and lost my operators certificate. When I went to inquire about getting it replaced, I was shocked to find out there is no federal data base as to who has them, it is up to the company which issued it to keep records. If you wrote the test at a trade show like I did and can't remember the name of the company which was doing it, you are SOL, you have to do it all over again and the cost is a lot more than it was when I did it the first time.

Sounds like a perfect opportunity for a counterfeiter. Run them off in your basement and sell them. No one will be able to check if it is real or not.

[eyeball]

You might ask why the DND is funding water survival education in the middle of Ontario?

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard were merged into one department a few years ago (much to the chagrin of Coast Guard personnel). I guess because there is no ocean in Ontario its fallen on the DND for some reason to deliver this education.

Why this all wasn't just given to Transport Canada however is the real mystery. They're the one's who are in charge of all the certificates and training associated with commercial vessel safety so I fail to see why they shouldn't be responsible for recreational vessel safety and operator proficiency. The recreational fishing lobby has a very powerful influence on the government. Perhaps the public expects or is demanding less rigorous standards be applied for recreational safety, standards that might give Transport Canada a case of gas and indigestion.

Edited January 9, 2010 by eyeball

[Smallc]

I guess because there is no ocean in Ontario

The Coast Guard operates in Ontario.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Smallc

[eyeball]

The Coast Guard operates in Ontario.

What about the federal fisheries side, the side that's apparently managing the program? As I understand it freshwater fisheries are managed by the province.

In any case, its long long overdue. The authorities have been granting exemption after exemption and extending the date everyone needs a ticket to operate any type of boat for years now.

Recreational and commercial vessel operators and owners have been resisting safety certification for decades. Canada is also about 20 years behind the times on its MARPOL commitments for much the same reason.

The public's fear of government and government's fear of the public is a little sad if not a little ridiculous at times.

Edited January 9, 2010 by eyeball

[Smallc]

Both provincial and federal laws regulate fishing in Ontario.

The Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act is the main provincial law regulating fishing. Fishing licences are issued unter this act.

The federal Fisheries Act is the primary legislation protecting fisheries in Canada.

http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/en/Business/LetsFish/2ColumnSubPage/STEL02_165339.html

[eyeball]

The federal Fisheries Act is the primary legislation protecting fisheries in Canada.

The problem is the feds are also the primary enforcers of this act, as evidenced by the failure of fisheries from coast to coast.

I think that's what got up the nose of so many coast guard personnel the most...the baggage DFO brought on board was more than just a little smelly.

Edited January 9, 2010 by eyeball

[Guest TrueMetis]

The problem is the feds are also the primary enforcers of this act, as evidenced by the failure of fisheries from coast to coast.

I think that's what got up the nose of so many coast guard personnel the most...the baggage DFO brought on board was more than just a little smelly.

I doubt that the fisheris would be doing any better if they were contolled by provincial authorites as their is really no good way to check fish populations. While on the other hand the harp seal population (which is monitored by the DFO) is estimated at 7 million, so they are doing a great job there.

[eyeball]

I doubt that the fisheris would be doing any better if they were contolled by provincial authorites as their is really no good way to check fish populations. While on the other hand the harp seal population (which is monitored by the DFO) is estimated at 7 million, so they are doing a great job there.

I doubt it too but at least provincial control would be one step closer to hopefully establishing even more localized management.

There are so ways to assess fish populations, what's missing is the means to check and balance any mismanagement or fudging of this data by the authorities, but then that's true of so many things the authorities are responsible for isn't it?

[Guest TrueMetis]

I doubt it too but at least provincial control would be one step closer to hopefully establishing even more localized management.

True enough

There are so ways to assess fish populations, what's missing is the means to check and balance any mismanagement or fudging of this data by the authorities, but then that's true of so many things the authorities are responsible for isn't it?

Yea but there are no very good ways of checking fish population. Though if you can think of one I would love to hear about it.

Edited January 9, 2010 by TrueMetis

[eyeball]

Yea but there are no very good ways of checking fish population. Though if you can think of one I would love to hear about it.

In-stream enumeration of salmon spawners and jacks by human observers can be effective.

Getting DFO to fund this sort of hands on enumeration seems to be a scary proposition because it can be quite effective at blowing holes in DFO's numbers. You can ask many a coastal fish hatchery manager or stream biologist about the lack of funding that's available for data collection. Of course if you don't have any data how can you determine what needs to be spent on enhancement or restoration? Volunteers are just as often engaged in guerilla enhancement these days as any that's officially sanctioned.

At sea test fishing is another fairly effective means of determining abundance and or a lack thereof. Again DFO funding for this kind of ongoing research is sorely lacking.

Edited January 9, 2010 by eyeball

[William Ashley]

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard were merged into one department a few years ago (much to the chagrin of Coast Guard personnel). I guess because there is no ocean in Ontario its fallen on the DND for some reason to deliver this education.

Why this all wasn't just given to Transport Canada however is the real mystery. They're the one's who are in charge of all the certificates and training associated with commercial vessel safety so I fail to see why they shouldn't be responsible for recreational vessel safety and operator proficiency. The recreational fishing lobby has a very powerful influence on the government. Perhaps the public expects or is demanding less rigorous standards be applied for recreational safety, standards that might give Transport Canada a case of gas and indigestion.

Fact is though you need to pay for pleasure craft operators license so why did this program have $400000 assigned to it for a small community when hundreds of other communities in Ontario and around Canada get nothing?

I was reading an article about Canadian Rangers teaching Canadian forces northern survival, and Canadian Ranger training at Camp Loon for cold water survival - why though was a third party private contractor needed - and why was this only in one community? Who did it service? Who is the DND responsible for that couldn't of been instructed from the regular pay structure and personnel of the forces?

Edited January 10, 2010 by William Ashley

[Wild Bill]

I doubt that the fisheris would be doing any better if they were contolled by provincial authorites as their is really no good way to check fish populations. While on the other hand the harp seal population (which is monitored by the DFO) is estimated at 7 million, so they are doing a great job there.

Don't mention those seals! We wouldn't have a cod shortage if those damn buggers would just respect the size limits!

[Peter F]

This is odd to see a program through the department of defence for safe boating? Anyone thing this was the right department to process this grant? ...

In the proactive disclosure there are MANY MANY fisheries grants - yet doesn't Canada have a ministry for Fisheries? Why are the grants being delivered via the DND?

...

Why is the DND funding all these million dollar fisheries programs?

I beleive these grants are coming from DND because DND is the lead ministry in Search and Rescue operations.

See National Search and Rescue Secretariat

and within that site: SAR new initiatives fund

Edited January 10, 2010 by Peter F

[William Ashley]

I beleive these grants are coming from DND because DND is the lead ministry in Search and Rescue operations.

See National Search and Rescue Secretariat

and within that site: SAR new initiatives fund

Ok, this is actually a fairly valid reason, but why are these programs required at that cost. I can look at one webpage - or why not require a test to be written priot to being able to pilot a boat or require safety instructions on boats. Clearly ICE fishing is the reason for lake simcoe - but why not require people to pass a test for their ice fishing license? Why spend millions of dollars teaching people what they should already know?

And why a third party? Why not have SAR personnel on payroll give the education?

[Peter F]

... why are these programs required at that cost.

I have no idea. You'd have to talk to the folks that make the proposal and the other folks who approve the proposal.

.. why not require a test to be written priot to being able to pilot a boat or require safety instructions on boats.

Tests are required prior to being able to pilot a boat and safety instructions are required on boats. There are various licenses required depending on size and purpose of vessel. These vary from Small Craft Operators License all the way up to Master-Foriegn certificates.

Clearly ICE fishing is the reason for lake simcoe - but why not require people to pass a test for their ice fishing license?

I'm pretty sure that far more people boat on Lake Simcoe than icefish on it.

Why spend millions of dollars teaching people what they should already know?

because SAR spends millions every year searching for and rescuing people that don't already know and do the proverbial silly things.

And why a third party? Why not have SAR personnel on payroll give the education?

Wich particular SAR personnel are you refering too? Helicopter pilots? SAR technicians? CG officers? RCMP officers? I doubt if you would find very many 'spare' personnel.

[William Ashley]

I'm pretty sure that far more people boat on Lake Simcoe than icefish on it.

The ice fishing championships were held there.

because SAR spends millions every year searching for and rescuing people that don't already know and do the proverbial silly things.

But are the type of people SAR looks for really the type of people we want to be saving?

Wich particular SAR personnel are you refering too? Helicopter pilots? SAR technicians? CG officers? RCMP officers? I doubt if you would find very many 'spare' personnel.

I dunno ones that know how to instruct people how not to fall into icey water and know how people can get out of it.

They had like 50 officers storm that gas pipe bombers place, I'm sure a couple of them could of done it, or are those all the ones who don't know how not to fall into icey water?

Think of the logic. 1 officers wages - maybe $80,000 - program cost $440,000 - what is more costly?

I also find it funny this thread is #1 in google search for

lake simcoe federal program safe boating

Edited January 11, 2010 by William Ashley

[William Ashley]

CABSA the organization that got the over 1 million dollar grant - has basically no information on safe boating on their website and charges an Individual member fee of $75 and a Group member fee $150 - but why is membership required when the government is giving it over 1 million dollars? Why are tax payers paying for membership ontop of the 1 million given to this private business organization.

??

When trying to get information on "safe boating week"

I came to a screen that said

"You are not authorised to view this resource.

You need to login. "

Yet there is no login option?

Odd.

The only source that seems to redirect is their links page

Canadian Boaters Allinace www.canadianboatersalliance.ca

Canadian Power and Sail Squadrons www.cps-ecp.ca

Canadian Coast Guard www.ccg-gcc.gc.ca

Cold Water Boot Camp www.coldwaterbootcamp.com

Lifesaving Society www.lifesavingsociety.com

National Search and Rescue Secretariat www.nss.gc.ca

Office of Boating Safety www.tc.gc.ca/BoatingSafety

Water Incident Research Alliance www.waterincident.ca

Wear a Lifejacket www.wearalifejacket.com

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The one million dollars was for a 150 volunteer operation ---- that had "50 million impressions?" Yet I wasn't one of them - and I didn't even know there were 50 million people in Canada?

Anyone else here interact with CASBA's safe boating program?

Edited January 11, 2010 by William Ashley

[Peter F]

Cold water survival is not necessarily related to winter and ice fishing. Almost all bodies of water in Canada are cold - even in the summer. One does not have to have been ice fishing to end up immersed in cold water. A capsized canoe can put people in cold water, for example, or going swimming at the lake, or taking a ferry.

As for "are people in cold water worth saving?" it all depends on ones point of view I guess. Are pedestrians who are hit by moving vehicles worth saving? Are people trapped in a house-fire worth saving? Are these really the type of folks our society should be spending money saving?

I understand you find a grant to some boating club on lake simcoe to be questionable. Thats ok with me.

But I really don't understand this hang up with ice-fishing on lake Simcoe and wether or not some government employee should be doing what the boating club is getting a grant for and why even bother saving anyone anyways...

[William Ashley]

Cold water survival is not necessarily related to winter and ice fishing. Almost all bodies of water in Canada are cold - even in the summer.

Ok I swim in lake Huron in the summer, and it is doable, if you don't have safety equipment why the hell would you go away from sight of the shoreline?

If you don't have thermal equipment why would you head out into water - it should patently be illegal to fish further than you can safely swim to shore in the event of an accident. I also swam in Northern Ontario in the summer up in Greenstone municipality. Fact is that people need to be reasonable. 1st they claim that they had a meaningful impact for the 3 million dollars - but in all honesty this program was completely a waste of tax dollars and likely had little effect on their target of "adult males" who should bloody well know not to go out and drown to begin with.

Isn't that saying something for the intelligence of adult males?

One does not have to have been ice fishing to end up immersed in cold water.

If you have half a brain you do. Then one must think very carefully about what ice fishing is.

A capsized canoe can put people in cold water, for example, or going swimming at the lake, or taking a ferry.

Ferry accidents are rare, and swimming at the lake shouldn't be a safety issue if you are responsible. If you are in the water you should be aware of the risks.

As for "are people in cold water worth saving?" it all depends on ones point of view I guess. Are pedestrians who are hit by moving vehicles worth saving?

If they jumped out infront of the car knowing they might get hit and do.. I might say no.

Are people trapped in a house-fire worth saving?

If they lit a fire on their rug and went to sleep I might say, no.

Are these really the type of folks our society should be spending money saving?

I think we do need to think about this one.

I understand you find a grant to some boating club on lake simcoe to be questionable. Thats ok with me.

What I don't see as good is that they didn't need the money to do what they were doing - 150 volunteers should cost $0 not $440,000 or 1.2 Million. This grant appears totally partisan.

But I really don't understand this hang up with ice-fishing on lake Simcoe and wether or not some government employee should be doing what the boating club is getting a grant for and why even bother saving anyone anyways...

I think this because if an officer can do what this organization did for 1/5th the cost then you have government waste. This org on the lake charges for their membership, so why should the government give that money to a group with private membership. It wouldn't be quite the same if the organization was open to the public, but it isn't. Why should public tax dollars go to a non public organization?

[Peter F]

Ok I am lost

1st they claim that they had a meaningful impact for the 3 million dollars

Who claimed?