Environment, oilsands

[Jerry J. Fortin]

It'll never happen as long as Albertans vote in whoever gives them the biggest tax cut.

Maybe not. But maybe we toss the PC party and jump on the Wildrose boat. Their policy plans are grassroots driven, the possibility exists.......

[Smallc]

Pretty much every service sector industry is headquartered in Toronto.

Yes, I think that Toronto has and will continue to escape many of the problems (as will several other cities. There will be dead zones eventually though in some areas. I have no doubt that in the long term, Ontario's diverse economy will make a strong comeback...but it will take time.

[nicky10013]

Maybe not. But maybe we toss the PC party and jump on the Wildrose boat. Their policy plans are grassroots driven, the possibility exists.......

To get movement on that you need a party further to the left who is willing to use the government to incentivize diversification. If I'm not mistaken, Wildrose is even further to the right of the tories. Not looking good.

[ToadBrother]

I agree with everything you said. Though, if we're talking about a growth in the service industry I'd say Ontario is going to benefit more than any other province. Pretty much every service sector industry is headquartered in Toronto. These days, it's a lot easier to set up a small branch office than to move your entire organization. The days of regional power because of trade routes is coming to a close, but don't think regions of power are going to move. Money, stock, information can all be moved electronically now. Finance, banking, media aren't going to up and move to Calgary or Vancouver. It would cost too much.

The centers may still exist, but as electronic communication increases in speed, reliability and coverage, they will no longer be the centers of gravity they once were. Other jurisdictions that, thirty or forty years ago couldn't compete with Toronto or New York, will now have a much easier time. It will no longer be "how good are the rail/water links to our markets", it will be "how big is the Internet pipe and how close is it to winter skiing".

I'm being partially factitious here, but still, when a branch office can do everything head office does, but the branch office lies in a jurisdiction more willing to create incentives (lower corporate taxes, better facilities, etc.) the center of gravity loses some of its mass. The same thing happened in the Industrial Revolution (and even before, we can see the early effects of the New England in the late 16th or certainly into the 17th centuries), the landed gentry and lower nobility simply could not compete with the pay that the factories could offer. England saw its countryside literally emptied of people in a few generations, and the center of gravity shifted from the landed nobility and gentry to the cities, and to the rising middle class.

No socio-economic system lasts forever, and generally lasts so long as there is some limiter that effectively blocks movement.

Edited January 10, 2010 by ToadBrother

[nicky10013]

Yes, I think that Toronto has and will continue to escape many of the problems (as will several other cities. There will be dead zones eventually though in some areas. I have no doubt that in the long term, Ontario's diverse economy will make a strong comeback...but it will take time.

Absolutely. I think what we're doing now in Ontario is on the right track. Re-training, tax incentives for companies to produce green technologies. It'll take time but I think we're on the right track. RIM is the fastest growing company on the planet and it's headquareted in Waterloo. We need 10 more of them. It'll take time but I think we can do it.

[nicky10013]

The centers may still exist, but as electronic communication increases in speed, reliability and coverage, they will no longer be the centers of gravity they once were.

I disagree. With everything becoming even more connected, a company can review it's operations from any point on the planet and they're more likely to do it from their home base. Newspapers are shutting down foreign bureaus because they simply don't need to keep people on the ground to maintain the level of coverage and the same can be said of companies that would rather teleconference with subsidiaries rather than set up their own offices in different areas. Look at something like a stock exchange. Albertan's can complain all they want about taxes, but where will the money go? They complain about the east but they'll be investing in companies traded in Toronto.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Absolutely. I think what we're doing now in Ontario is on the right track. Re-training, tax incentives for companies to produce green technologies. It'll take time but I think we're on the right track. RIM is the fastest growing company on the planet and it's headquareted in Waterloo. We need 10 more of them. It'll take time but I think we can do it.

There is no doubt that the economy of Ontario can and will rebound. It is the heartland of our industries.

[Wild Bill]

Absolutely. I think what we're doing now in Ontario is on the right track. Re-training, tax incentives for companies to produce green technologies. It'll take time but I think we're on the right track. RIM is the fastest growing company on the planet and it's headquareted in Waterloo. We need 10 more of them. It'll take time but I think we can do it.

I sold electronic parts to RIM when they were still just an R&D centre at the University. I am quite familiar with that scene, along with Celestica, Nortel and many others.

RIM is pretty well all that's left, now. They are an anomaly, because they were essentially the only one who made a conscious decision to base in Waterloo and stay there. All the others are pretty well gone. Electronic manufacturing is now only a shadow of its former self here in Ontario. This all came to a head around the same time the Towers fell in New York. Thousands and thousands of jobs have been lost, with nothing to replace them.

All this talk of "green jobs" sounds great in academic circles but in the real world I haven't heard why any of it would make a better fit here in Ontario. All the electronic manufacturing left for countries like China and Ireland for very good business reasons. China has cheaper labour and Ireland has not just lower taxes but a LOT less government paperwork! Unless you are personally involved few citizens realize just how much of a PITA and how much money it costs to do all the paperwork our governments demand of a business.

So why would any of those windmills and such be built here? Why would they be immune to the factors that have driven out other manufacturing?

That leaves just service and installation. Those jobs tend to pay less. This looks like a repeat of the same old story we've been seeing as primary manufacturing has been pulling out since the 80's.

No, "green jobs' is just another buzz word from people who don't actually have hands-on experience with DOING it!

You talk about how we "need 10 more of them". I watched as we lost about a hundred!

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I sold electronic parts to RIM when they were still just an R&D centre at the University. I am quite familiar with that scene, along with Celestica, Nortel and many others.

RIM is pretty well all that's left, now. They are an anomaly, because they were essentially the only one who made a conscious decision to base in Waterloo and stay there. All the others are pretty well gone. Electronic manufacturing is now only a shadow of its former self here in Ontario. This all came to a head around the same time the Towers fell in New York. Thousands and thousands of jobs have been lost, with nothing to replace them.

All this talk of "green jobs" sounds great in academic circles but in the real world I haven't heard why any of it would make a better fit here in Ontario. All the electronic manufacturing left for countries like China and Ireland for very good business reasons. China has cheaper labour and Ireland has not just lower taxes but a LOT less government paperwork! Unless you are personally involved few citizens realize just how much of a PITA and how much money it costs to do all the paperwork our governments demand of a business.

So why would any of those windmills and such be built here? Why would they be immune to the factors that have driven out other manufacturing?

That leaves just service and installation. Those jobs tend to pay less. This looks like a repeat of the same old story we've been seeing as primary manufacturing has been pulling out since the 80's.

No, "green jobs' is just another buzz word from people who don't actually have hands-on experience with DOING it!

You talk about how we "need 10 more of them". I watched as we lost about a hundred!

What of the possibility of automated production? We have lots of available production facilities not being used anymore. We have lots of folks on welfare and EI that can be trained and offered positions in new productive efforts. Why don't we head down a new path and carve a trial for others to follow? Why do we want to sit in the weeds and watch it all go away while doing nothing about it?

[nicky10013]

I sold electronic parts to RIM when they were still just an R&D centre at the University. I am quite familiar with that scene, along with Celestica, Nortel and many others.

RIM is pretty well all that's left, now. They are an anomaly, because they were essentially the only one who made a conscious decision to base in Waterloo and stay there. All the others are pretty well gone. Electronic manufacturing is now only a shadow of its former self here in Ontario. This all came to a head around the same time the Towers fell in New York. Thousands and thousands of jobs have been lost, with nothing to replace them.

All this talk of "green jobs" sounds great in academic circles but in the real world I haven't heard why any of it would make a better fit here in Ontario. All the electronic manufacturing left for countries like China and Ireland for very good business reasons. China has cheaper labour and Ireland has not just lower taxes but a LOT less government paperwork! Unless you are personally involved few citizens realize just how much of a PITA and how much money it costs to do all the paperwork our governments demand of a business.

So why would any of those windmills and such be built here? Why would they be immune to the factors that have driven out other manufacturing?

That leaves just service and installation. Those jobs tend to pay less. This looks like a repeat of the same old story we've been seeing as primary manufacturing has been pulling out since the 80's.

No, "green jobs' is just another buzz word from people who don't actually have hands-on experience with DOING it!

You talk about how we "need 10 more of them". I watched as we lost about a hundred!

Green isn't limited to windmills. Think about electric cars for example. A lot of research is being done on batteries...making them more efficient which will eventually make them cheaper to produce. I can't even come up with anything else because I'm no scientist. It's not about making more windmills it's about R&D and the products of tomorrow which are more and more shifting to green technologies.

[Smallc]

Solar panel construction, green energy (hydro, solar, wind), energy conservative research and construction, green building construction, green building design, carbon capture research and construction, there are infinite possibilities really. Take what we do now and make it cleaner.

[Wild Bill]

Green isn't limited to windmills. Think about electric cars for example. A lot of research is being done on batteries...making them more efficient which will eventually make them cheaper to produce. I can't even come up with anything else because I'm no scientist. It's not about making more windmills it's about R&D and the products of tomorrow which are more and more shifting to green technologies.

Yes, we still do lots of R & D! The problem is, R & D only provides a few jobs. When the time comes to do the volume manufacturing the business decision is always made to farm it out to another country where you can have much lower costs.

During the early 90's I had left selling electronic parts to be a buyer. Later on I became a salesman again and first off started calling up all the old accounts from my list to set up appointments to see their R&D engineers.

One big name I had known was so enthusiastic about seeing me I couldn't help but be suspicious. Usually a salesman has to beg a bit to get someone to take the time to see them. These guys seemed almost desperately lonely!

When I got there they treated me like royalty! I got the guided tour and shook hands with all the managers. The engineers were grateful for all the data books on new products and suggestions I could offer.

The clincher came when I asked who was my production buying contact. They all got very quiet and looked at the floor, scuffing their shoes. Finally, they admitted that there wasn't one. All the production had been moved to China.

I was amazed! After all, the entire rationale for supporting engineering with data and samples was to be allowed to bid on the big production parts requirements! That was the revenue stream that paid for it all! Where would be the money for my company (and my commissions!) if we could never sell any parts to them?

It was now obvious why they were so lonely! No distributor had called on them since the decision to move production to China had been made.

Not surprisingly, the higher management fixed this problem once it became so obvious. They fired all those R&D engineers in Toronto and hired some new ones in China.

So what does it benefit Canada to develop "the products of tomorrow" if it doesn't replace the lost manufacturing jobs?

As for WHY we farm out the manufacturing, the answer is simple. We ARE a much more expensive country than others!

Picture yourself as the head of a company who has just invented a "Mr. Fusion" generator that will let you power your car with garbage, a la "Back to the Future". You are responsible for making your company as profitable as possible. After all, your company is owned by perhaps thousands of shareholders. Not all are Conrad Blacks or Bronfmans. Most are retired folks and spinster lady teachers who have invested their life savings in buying shares. They want their return on their investment and if you don't deliver your ass is grass next board election!

Canada has higher labour, taxes and mandatory government paper work than China or Ireland. Not to mention all those anti-pollution WHMIS laws!

What are you going to do? If you keep it in Canada you'll only be deposed and the next CEO will send the manufacturing offshore!

What's more, you know that despite patent protections and the like you'll be facing competitors with knockoffs almost right away. China has been copying software, CDs and DVDs for years with impunity. What does Canada actually do to keep the pirate stuff out? Do you really think that if you stay in Canada and pay all those higher costs you can still sell your product at a competitive price?

We live in the real world and we've been doing a very poor job of realizing that! Did you think that all these Canadian CEO's give our jobs away just out of evil glee at putting their neighbours, relatives, sons and daughters out of work?

Edited January 10, 2010 by Wild Bill

[Smallc]

WHMIS isn't about the environment as much as it's about worker protection.

[nicky10013]

I've owned three blackberries and they've all been manufactured in Canada. Even if we don't do the bulk of the manufacturing, who cares? What we need as much as we need money for R&D is more education. We've got to become an ideas economy and the manufacturing we do needs to be state of the art, stuff a guy in China can't do. We have to lead not follow. It starts with education. Education is the bullet to every problem this country has.

[Smallc]

That's right, we need to shift our economy. We need to become a very mobile and diverse economy. We can do R & D and prototype manufacturing without going into the bulk factory type work if we have to. We can become an international centre for education (we already are becoming that in many ways). We can become a place to study things like climate change, medical science, energy (and again, we're doing those things, and more is on the way, but we need to keep building). Getting stuck in the rut and saying we're doomed isn't the answer at all.

[Wild Bill]

I've owned three blackberries and they've all been manufactured in Canada. Even if we don't do the bulk of the manufacturing, who cares? What we need as much as we need money for R&D is more education. We've got to become an ideas economy and the manufacturing we do needs to be state of the art, stuff a guy in China can't do. We have to lead not follow. It starts with education. Education is the bullet to every problem this country has.

Great! We're gonna attack this problem by growing a highly educated generation that has to try to make businesses profitable in a global economy while facing much higher taxes, labour costs and government paperwork expenses!

Would you suggest making them wear shoes with 10 lb lead weights in them as well?

Or would you make them globally competitive by subsidizing their tuition?

[nicky10013]

Great! We're gonna attack this problem by growing a highly educated generation that has to try to make businesses profitable in a global economy while facing much higher taxes, labour costs and government paperwork expenses!

Would you suggest making them wear shoes with 10 lb lead weights in them as well?

Or would you make them globally competitive by subsidizing their tuition?

Our tax rates are similar to those in the US. The EU is leading the charge on new technology infrastructure and their tax and bureaucracy is far more dense than in Canada. Take your example. Ireland. Ireland may not have that many regulations but the EU does and any company wanting to do business there has to fulfill those regulations. Ireland isn't exempt from EU regulations.

[Smallc]

Also, according to the OECD, the Heritage Foundation, and EUROSTAT, Ireland eats up just as much of their economy in tax as Canada does. They simply collect it differently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

Edited January 10, 2010 by Smallc

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Also, according to the OECD, the Heritage Foundation, and EUROSTAT, Ireland eats up just as much of their economy in tax as Canada does. They simply collect it differently:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

So I get from all this you folks approve of a lemming approach to the problem.

[eyeball]

I fail to see how either a race to the bottom of a heap or the top of an ivory tower is going to work.

I can certainly see how subsidizing foreign competition by ignoring their human rights and environmental standards would cripple us though. Getting rid of our's is probably amongst the poorer choices we could make though.

I like the idea of exporting ideas in the form of principles and approaches to things like human rights and environmental standards. The best way would be to provide examples and hope other countries copy them free of charge - open source is the way to go on the really forward looking ideas.

In the meantime I can see the sense of protecting markets and industries in Canada that go the extra mile to ensure their practices are environmentally and socially responsible and sustainable.

Now some people might say I could get paid more for the fish I catch if other producers around the world don't conduct their fishery in the same highly regulated and advanced modern way that I do. That is, the sooner their fish stocks are depleted the sooner our plentiful one's become more valuable. The problem with this short term thinking is that the depletion of natural resources around the world will fuel an enormous spike in the capital costs of quotas/shares in resources here. This will result in too much capital chasing too few resources and pressure to reduce costs like environmental and social standards will build.

Edited January 10, 2010 by eyeball

[Smallc]

So I get from all this you folks approve of a lemming approach to the problem.

I'm not sure where you would get that idea from. I've proposed several things that we can do to improve our position. I give the Harper government credit for spending so much money on our educational institutions.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Smallc

[nicky10013]

So I get from all this you folks approve of a lemming approach to the problem.

No, just an approach that works.

[eyeball]

No, just an approach that works.

The only approach I see is to apply a full cost accounting and an environmental balance sheet that captures our economies impacts to the environment and depletion of natural resources and apply tariffs against products from other countries that don't.

Actually just human rights-based tariffs alone might do the trick as human rights should naturally lead to things like better environmental and social standards. Like they did here.

Edited January 10, 2010 by eyeball

[ToadBrother]

The only approach I see is to apply a full cost accounting and an environmental balance sheet that captures our economies impacts to the environment and depletion of natural resources and apply tariffs against products from other countries that don't.

Great. When you have an objective way of quantifying that, you let us know.

[eyeball]

Great. When you have an objective way of quantifying that, you let us know.

You strike me as someone who must be either very very old or very very jaded.

You know what they say about whining about what can't be done and interrupting people who are doing it.