Environment, oilsands

[Smallc]

BS society hasn`t allowed you the opportunity to succeed or exercise any fundamental rights. At some point in history someone fought for those rights and that opportunity and a veteran defended them.

Yes, some people gave the ultimate sacrifice for the freedom and prosperity in this society...and here you are complaining about taxes.

Societies always end up collapsing on themselves, like the roman empire which fell under the weight of social policies as the state ended up taking too much of the economic wealth to squander it.

Societies collapse for a variety of reasons.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Smallc

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Yes, some people gave the ultimate sacrifice for the freedom and prosperity in this society...and here you are complaining about taxes.

Societies collapse for a variety of reasons.

Western society is in the early stages of collapse right now. If we fail to get our act together we are doomed to be overrun and dominated by the much larger markets of Asia.

[nicky10013]

Methinks it is you and those others who agree with you who are ignorant, Nicky. Or at least, mathematically challenged.

If you graph out incomes to show poor, middle and high you will see the obvious. The working man represents by far all the available tax money!

The poor have no money and the so-called "rich" are in such small numbers by comparison that you could take ALL of their income and it wouldn't amount to a hill of beans compared to the amount offered by all the working people.

It sounds impressive to hear that a man makes a million dollars a year. For tax purposes, that could be the same as 20 working people making $50,000, which today is NOT rich! There are far more than 20 x the people making $50K or less than are making a million dollars.

"Tax the rich" is just a tired old diversion that takes advantage of the fact that most of us have poor basic math skills. It's a diversion, to keep us from noticing a very sad fact of nature, that working people are taxed 'cuz that's where all the money is!

As I said, the government could take ALL the income from the number of Canadians making a million or more dollars per year and it would be a pittance by comparison.

No, if we want tax relief we have to pay attention to HOW tax money is spent, not how much rich or working folks pay! I wouldn't be surprised if privitization could cut tax bills in some areas in half! I've seen how the government operates, first hand! General Motors 1955 is a model of modernization and efficiency by comparison. A better question would be if some of those areas need to be done at all!

Anyhow, if you don't believe me, go to StatsCan and pull the numbers yourself. 1 + 1 = 2, it's that basic.

Tax the rich is for people with poor math skills because we don't realize that a lot of people are poor? You just made the perfect argument for progressive taxation. I never said that people who are making less money shouldn't be taxed. My argument is that they should be taxed less. They have a much harder time getting by than that guy making a million dollars you were making a case for. If we can decrease the taxes on the poor by a couple percent by raising the tax by a couple percent on people who can clearly afford it, is that such a bad thing?

Furthermore, I do pay attention to how our money is spent. I just listed them. Things cost money. There is also this notion that privitization would save us so much more money. In the end, that's not necessarily the case. Health care costs in the US are near double what they are here. The Harris government privatized the 407 in Ontario. It's an electronic toll highway. The tolls were originally meant to pay for the highway and as soon as that was done, they'd be taken away. Instead, Harris sold the entire thing. The prices went through the roof and no one uses it. Let's privatize the military, too, while we're at it. Just because it comes off the government books doesn't mean we aren't paying for it privately which evidently can be far more costly than if the service was provided for the government. Why? The government has the ability to regulate costs. It's that basic.

Edited January 10, 2010 by nicky10013

[Smallc]

Western society is in the early stages of collapse right now. If we fail to get our act together we are doomed to be overrun and dominated by the much larger markets of Asia.

That doesn't mean we're collapsing, it means that we're declining in relation to the developing world, which was to be expected.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

That doesn't mean we're collapsing, it means that we're declining in relation to the developing world, which was to be expected.

Look at the financial system we have developed and how it was very nearly destroyed. The end of that crisis has not yet been seen. Look at the fiscal structures of companies and governments in the western world. Iceland has fallen, the city of Dubia is in disarray, how many banks are now defunct? Open your eyes and read the writing on the wall. The US is now starting to pay out their OS cheques, how long before that little ripple meets the health care ripple and causes a wave? All of the G8 have debt issues, and where are those debts being financed from and how? By middle eastern and far eastern purchases of bond and treasury bills from the borrowing nations. Look what the IMF and the world bank did in Argentina. Don't you think that those who we compete with haven't gone to school on our methods and practices? Remember how the demise of Hong Kong was going to cause huge problems for China, and how it somehow didn't happen?

Wake up people, things are changing and we need to adapt or die.

[nicky10013]

Western society is in the early stages of collapse right now. If we fail to get our act together we are doomed to be overrun and dominated by the much larger markets of Asia.

That's the fate of the US, too. India and China are the economies of the future whether we like it or not. Who cares? As long as we're selling to the highest bidder I see no problem with it.

[Smallc]

All of the G8 have debt issues,

Not all. The rest of the G8 has twice the debt that we do. Also, countries like Australia, Denmark, the Netherlands, etc, have basically no debt.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

That's the fate of the US, too. India and China are the economies of the future whether we like it or not. Who cares? As long as we're selling to the highest bidder I see no problem with it.

You wouldn't.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Not all. The rest of the G8 has twice the debt that we do. Also, countries like Australia, Denmark, the Netherlands, etc, have basically no debt.

Neither does Alberta, but that doesn't seem to be working for us right now either. My point was that things are changing and the former powerhouses, the "G8" are no exception.

[Smallc]

Which is why the G8 is being supplanted in most situations by the G20.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Which is why the G8 is being supplanted in most situations by the G20.

Do you really think the G20 will stem the flow of change? Do you really believe that the G20 are operating in our best interests? The G20 exists as a response to the rise of the Asian markets! Nothing coming out of either the G20 or the G8 has the ability to turn back the clock. What the entire effort is about is to mitigate the administrative efforts, and to steer us further into corporate governance.

[Smallc]

Why would we ever turn back the clock?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Why would we ever turn back the clock?

I don't mean to suggest that we do. I intended the remark to indicate we cannot return to our position of economic dominance by doing the same thing time after time.

[nicky10013]

You wouldn't.

No, I don't. What's your problem with it? What's the difference between selling to India and China than the US?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

No, I don't. What's your problem with it? What's the difference between selling to India and China than the US?

Its not about selling! Its about buying ya dipstick! Its about the balance of trade! Its about the difference between bringing money into the nation and taking it out! Its about a standard of living provided through employment and production. Its about a cost of living determined through the transfer and sale of goods and services brought into and shipped out of a nation.

[Wild Bill]

Tax the rich is for people with poor math skills because we don't realize that a lot of people are poor? You just made the perfect argument for progressive taxation. I never said that people who are making less money shouldn't be taxed. My argument is that they should be taxed less. They have a much harder time getting by than that guy making a million dollars you were making a case for. If we can decrease the taxes on the poor by a couple percent by raising the tax by a couple percent on people who can clearly afford it, is that such a bad thing?

Furthermore, I do pay attention to how our money is spent. I just listed them. Things cost money. There is also this notion that privitization would save us so much more money. In the end, that's not necessarily the case. Health care costs in the US are near double what they are here. The Harris government privatized the 407 in Ontario. It's an electronic toll highway. The tolls were originally meant to pay for the highway and as soon as that was done, they'd be taken away. Instead, Harris sold the entire thing. The prices went through the roof and no one uses it. Let's privatize the military, too, while we're at it. Just because it comes off the government books doesn't mean we aren't paying for it privately which evidently can be far more costly than if the service was provided for the government. Why? The government has the ability to regulate costs. It's that basic.

Didn't you follow the math at all? It DOESN'T MATTER if you tax the rich, take everything they have or just ignore them all together! The total amount of tax money from the rich is mice nuts compared to what you get from the working man, simply because there are so many, many, many more working incomes than "rich"!

SO WHAT THE HELL DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? It will NOT give any tax relief to poorer folks if you tax the rich more! You can take it ALL from them and it will only amount to a few pennies tax relief!

I just don't know how to put it any plainer! If you can't grasp the concept then I guess you can only deal with emotional opinions and not facts of nature. 1 + 1 = 2! It doesn't matter how you feel about it!

[blueblood]

I didn't realize that we chose where we're born.

I'm not moving the goal post at all. This society that others built has allowed you the opportunity to succeed. In order to maintain that society, we have to pay taxes to fund it.

And in order for people like me to keep society rolling, we need to keep more of our money, taxes do the opposite of that. So me spending my money and having a savings account is not helping society. I have succeeded in spite of society not because of it. Why cant everyone pay the same tax equally if we are all an equal society?

The fact that leftists think that people who provide jobs, and stimulate the economy more than the average joe should have the extra burden of sky high tax is evil.

Until recently Ontario was doing fine...Quebec was growing well too..or did you miss the part where the entire US economy collapsed?

I bet you wouldn't mind paying less than that. Try paying close to half and then talk to us.

Quebec is the example of a money pit, always has and always will be. Ontario was facing problems long before the recession. The recession just sped up the process. That's their problem they can't achieve the same growth as Alberta. Ireland has some of the lowest taxes in the developed world and no oil, yet before the recession they had one of the highest rates of growth in the western world.

Why should I who contributes more to society than you pay twice as much tax as you do? Why do you feel you have a right to my money? For every dollar that gets taken up in my high taxes, that's one less dollar I spend/put in the bank/invest.

Where's your proof of that? Most wealthy societies (those with as high or a GDP as us or higher) in this world are within a few points of us in terms of taxes.

Pre-recession ireland, ranked one of the freest countries in the world, highest quality of life, and low taxes. You get to say how strong Ontario is, I'll play ball with Ireland.

My grandmother got colon cancer twice. It was removed immediately both times....once in Winnipeg, the other time in Dauphin. Your parents probably wasted their money. With the introduction of a second Gamma Knife at the Health Sciences Centre as well as the Siemens Artiste, not to mention the operating rooms of the future there isn't much better care that can be bought anywhere else.

That was years ago, there is no way a hospital in Canada can compete with one in the states as far as fancy equipment goes, that is a clear example of how the private sector destroys public financing as far as getting things done. If the Canadian system is so good, why do people go to the US. As far as I'm concerned I got my money's worth, but I guess you would rather have people risk dying because of some socialist nonsense.

Bull. The bank doesn't give loans to people with no earning power (she had 4 children to look after). Like I said, you aren't the only person who lives here. Not everyone is as lucky as you. Get over yourself

Yes but they can have a co-signer, and have every opportunity to get earning power. And leftists aren't the only people that live in Canada, and not everyone is as unfortunate as they are. In my profession there is no luck, it's skilled management.

If you need me to explain, then it's no use me doing it. Un unregulated private sector is as bad as a total control communist government. Without regulations relating to corporate honesty, safety, employment standards, etc., business will run wild until wealth is eventually concentrated in the hands of a small group and everyone else is either dead or so poor they might as well be dead. At that point, the capitalist society collapses.

The market decides what happens to shady people, they lose their shirts. If people are dumb enough to invest in them, that's their problem. The rest of that part is tin-foil hattetness. If a business is poorly managed, the market will always punish them. The CRA is an example of how regulations interrupt the normal flow of business and cause long term chaos, had their been no CRA, those poor trash would have to get jobs/start up businesses in order to get money to buy a house.

We only started those massive surpluses in 1995ish. In the year 2000 you got the biggest tax break ever and you have gotten tax breaks almost every ear since then. You seem to forget that we still have a massive debt that eats up over 10% of the federal budget in debt service fees. If we would work harder to pay that off, instead of worrying so much about today, wed be way better off...and look where we are now. We have a new deficit, even without stimulus.

This country won't die, this country can take as long as it wants to pay off the debt. Paying off the debt shouldn't be a result of soaking high earners 44%, it should come with an increased tax base, which is a result of lower taxes.

In your opinion. The reality is, you don't pay 44% on most of your income if you're making under 200K per year.

Wrong, that's under $126,000.

As I said, I like the society we live in, and society is generally an expression of the people's will, even if they don't always get exactly what we want. Our country was founded on the principles of peace, order, and good government. If you want life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, well, go somewhere else.

Like I said, I am well within my rights to speak about that. So what your saying that people who disagree with you should leave the country? Well looks like you are advocating Quebec and Alberta seperation. Under your parameters, it sounds like your fine if the people of Alberta want to declare independence.

The sooner leftists realize to accept that a large portion of the population can think for themselves and aren't brainwashed by a grade 9 social studies textbook, the better off our country will be.

I think it's better than the tugging at the purse strings argument.

Tell that to Stephane Dion. Hell even PMPM and Chretien knew to campaign on lower taxes. Hell Jack Layton tried the heart strings argument, and he can't even break out of his rut!

Possibly...or possibly not. Thankfully, in this society, the responsibility to do something about it falls on all of us to spread out the cost and ensure that as few people as possible slip through the cracks.

Alberta has the lowest tax in the country, not much people slip through the cracks there! In reality, in this society it is the responsibility of all of us to look after ourselves, anything else is a fairy tale.

Not everyone is you. Not everyone can do the same things you do. I'm not sure you understand humanity that well.

That example is not me, that example is Robert Herjavec. Everyone has their own talents, I cannot play hockey, someone else can. Just because some people are too lazy to cash in on their talents is not my problem. By me making money and spending/saving in a bank/investing it, I am making the lives of those around me better, and at a far better rate than government handouts ever will. I think I understand humanity well, and it's not the fairy tale you keep telling.

You can say what you like, it doesn't necessarily make it true. Government and business both have important rolls in society.

Government's role is to provide an environment that allows people to better themselves, not to punish people.

Go back and read it again. I never said that. I happen to have nearly perfect credit.

But you say that government knows how to spend money more than most people, so in your case its a do as I say, not as I do. If you think a government knows how to spend money the best, cut them a large cheque and live off what the government gives you back, and see how that turns out.

There are very few people who pay anywhere close to 44%. As I said, I make above the average for Manitoba, Canada, and the US. If I'm paying 25%, the vast majority of people are paying less.

Why should those few people be punished, just because there are few of them? I thought you were all about equality, or is it only when it suits you?

[blueblood]

Didn't you follow the math at all? It DOESN'T MATTER if you tax the rich, take everything they have or just ignore them all together! The total amount of tax money from the rich is mice nuts compared to what you get from the working man, simply because there are so many, many, many more working incomes than "rich"!

SO WHAT THE HELL DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? It will NOT give any tax relief to poorer folks if you tax the rich more! You can take it ALL from them and it will only amount to a few pennies tax relief!

I just don't know how to put it any plainer! If you can't grasp the concept then I guess you can only deal with emotional opinions and not facts of nature. 1 + 1 = 2! It doesn't matter how you feel about it!

Unless that rich person is named the province of Alberta...

[Wild Bill]

Unless that rich person is named the province of Alberta...

Alberta will always be rich! That's because Albertans have been kicked in the gut a number of times over the years and have learned how to work hard and be creative. You could have their oil run out tomorrow and it wouldn't matter. As they saw the oil output dropping off they would have invested in other things so that they could keep thriving.

That's also why Ottawa will always want to take their money! Historically it was always Ontario they could use to fill their "bribe bucket", which is actually the true name for all these provincial equalization programs. Now Ontario doesn't have the money so they are REALLY gonna fleece Alberta to make up for the shortfall! Harper isn't as greedy about this as the Liberals traditionally are but the philosophy is so deeply entrenched in Ottawa that it has enough inertia to keep chugging along on its own.

I agree that Ontario is the maker of its own misfortune. We Ontarioans have been watching manufacturing jobs disappear to China and the Far East since the early 80's. What the hell else was supposed to happen but the situation we find ourselves in today? The difference is, Ontarioans took their prosperity for granted and now don't know what to do with themselves. They have yet to learn that they have to make it on their own. Politicians can make all the promises they want but its just hot air.

We WILL learn but it's gonna take about 20 years! In the meantime, the Feds will just keep dipping into Alberta's pocket instead.

[ToadBrother]

Alberta will always be rich! That's because Albertans have been kicked in the gut a number of times over the years and have learned how to work hard and be creative. You could have their oil run out tomorrow and it wouldn't matter. As they saw the oil output dropping off they would have invested in other things so that they could keep thriving.

I don't see Alberta investing in alternatives. From what I can tell they've behaved no differently than your average oil-rich state, socking away money, going through periods of largesse, but all in all if the price of oil remained suppressed, they'd be just as screwed as Saudi Arabia or Norway, or any other jurisdiction whose economy is almost entirely based off of a single resource.

I agree that Ontario is the maker of its own misfortune. We Ontarioans have been watching manufacturing jobs disappear to China and the Far East since the early 80's. What the hell else was supposed to happen but the situation we find ourselves in today? The difference is, Ontarioans took their prosperity for granted and now don't know what to do with themselves. They have yet to learn that they have to make it on their own. Politicians can make all the promises they want but its just hot air.

We WILL learn but it's gonna take about 20 years! In the meantime, the Feds will just keep dipping into Alberta's pocket instead.

Ontario is hardly alone in this. The industrialized world is seeing its manufacturing base shrinking and being exported. All in all, a lot of jurisdictions have not adapted to it well, and in some cases (like Michigan) how do you adapt, when your economy has been for a century dominated by manufacturing, and that sector sees a long-term decline and permanent shrinkage.

At the end of the day, I think Detroit holds the lesson here. If the local economic base cannot support the population, the population will ultimately leave. This is a trend thousands of years old, and there's nothing to be done about it. Ontario is suffering the same fate, though the recent plunge in the global economy has meant that the safety valve of Western Canada has faltered.

The industrialized world as a whole has to accept that, unless they dismantle the trade system they have worked so hard over the last thirty years to build with places like China (but not just China; India and Mexico are also major beneficiaries of offshoring), our manufacturing capacity will continue to decline. I think we're going to look on the period from the 1970s well into the 21st century as the Post-Industrial Age, and like the Industrial Revolution before it, it will mean major demographic shifts. Traditional manufacturing centers like southern Ontario are going to see migrations out of the area (reducing the tax base), what manufacturing that is left will exist only because the unions basically through up their hands and either gave in or find some way to work within a system where wages may very well be only a half or even less of what they were before. Service sector and other related fields will see a rise, but the trouble for places like Ontario, southern and northern England, the North-East United States and so forth is that this kind of economy does not have the geographical limitations that have, since the 18th century, drawn people from far and wide to it. In the old economy, it was, basically, proximity to shipping routes that determined the population centers, but in the age to come, it may very well be proximity to informational, recreational and educational infrastructure, and all sorts of "soft" attractants. Places like Vancouver or Calgary may in fact be far better situated to become the powerhouses of 21st century economic success than Southern Ontario.

[nicky10013]

And in order for people like me to keep society rolling, we need to keep more of our money, taxes do the opposite of that. So me spending my money and having a savings account is not helping society. I have succeeded in spite of society not because of it. Why cant everyone pay the same tax equally if we are all an equal society?

The fact that leftists think that people who provide jobs, and stimulate the economy more than the average joe should have the extra burden of sky high tax is evil.

Quebec is the example of a money pit, always has and always will be. Ontario was facing problems long before the recession. The recession just sped up the process. That's their problem they can't achieve the same growth as Alberta. Ireland has some of the lowest taxes in the developed world and no oil, yet before the recession they had one of the highest rates of growth in the western world.

Why should I who contributes more to society than you pay twice as much tax as you do? Why do you feel you have a right to my money? For every dollar that gets taken up in my high taxes, that's one less dollar I spend/put in the bank/invest.

Pre-recession ireland, ranked one of the freest countries in the world, highest quality of life, and low taxes. You get to say how strong Ontario is, I'll play ball with Ireland.

That was years ago, there is no way a hospital in Canada can compete with one in the states as far as fancy equipment goes, that is a clear example of how the private sector destroys public financing as far as getting things done. If the Canadian system is so good, why do people go to the US. As far as I'm concerned I got my money's worth, but I guess you would rather have people risk dying because of some socialist nonsense.

Yes but they can have a co-signer, and have every opportunity to get earning power. And leftists aren't the only people that live in Canada, and not everyone is as unfortunate as they are. In my profession there is no luck, it's skilled management.

The market decides what happens to shady people, they lose their shirts. If people are dumb enough to invest in them, that's their problem. The rest of that part is tin-foil hattetness. If a business is poorly managed, the market will always punish them. The CRA is an example of how regulations interrupt the normal flow of business and cause long term chaos, had their been no CRA, those poor trash would have to get jobs/start up businesses in order to get money to buy a house.

This country won't die, this country can take as long as it wants to pay off the debt. Paying off the debt shouldn't be a result of soaking high earners 44%, it should come with an increased tax base, which is a result of lower taxes.

Wrong, that's under $126,000.

Like I said, I am well within my rights to speak about that. So what your saying that people who disagree with you should leave the country? Well looks like you are advocating Quebec and Alberta seperation. Under your parameters, it sounds like your fine if the people of Alberta want to declare independence.

The sooner leftists realize to accept that a large portion of the population can think for themselves and aren't brainwashed by a grade 9 social studies textbook, the better off our country will be.

Tell that to Stephane Dion. Hell even PMPM and Chretien knew to campaign on lower taxes. Hell Jack Layton tried the heart strings argument, and he can't even break out of his rut!

Alberta has the lowest tax in the country, not much people slip through the cracks there! In reality, in this society it is the responsibility of all of us to look after ourselves, anything else is a fairy tale.

That example is not me, that example is Robert Herjavec. Everyone has their own talents, I cannot play hockey, someone else can. Just because some people are too lazy to cash in on their talents is not my problem. By me making money and spending/saving in a bank/investing it, I am making the lives of those around me better, and at a far better rate than government handouts ever will. I think I understand humanity well, and it's not the fairy tale you keep telling.

Government's role is to provide an environment that allows people to better themselves, not to punish people.

But you say that government knows how to spend money more than most people, so in your case its a do as I say, not as I do. If you think a government knows how to spend money the best, cut them a large cheque and live off what the government gives you back, and see how that turns out.

Why should those few people be punished, just because there are few of them? I thought you were all about equality, or is it only when it suits you?

Ireland now has 25% unemployment and the IRA is making noise again. Yes Ireland had a growing economy and yes Ireland has low taxes but that doesn't mean both are related. Taxes did have a bit to do with it but I'd wager it's more due to the fact that the EU dumped billions of Euros into Ireland and of course Ireland's membership in the EU common market.

So, if that's your example...well...then, that's your example.

[nicky10013]

I don't see Alberta investing in alternatives. From what I can tell they've behaved no differently than your average oil-rich state, socking away money, going through periods of largesse, but all in all if the price of oil remained suppressed, they'd be just as screwed as Saudi Arabia or Norway, or any other jurisdiction whose economy is almost entirely based off of a single resource.

Ontario is hardly alone in this. The industrialized world is seeing its manufacturing base shrinking and being exported. All in all, a lot of jurisdictions have not adapted to it well, and in some cases (like Michigan) how do you adapt, when your economy has been for a century dominated by manufacturing, and that sector sees a long-term decline and permanent shrinkage.

At the end of the day, I think Detroit holds the lesson here. If the local economic base cannot support the population, the population will ultimately leave. This is a trend thousands of years old, and there's nothing to be done about it. Ontario is suffering the same fate, though the recent plunge in the global economy has meant that the safety valve of Western Canada has faltered.

The industrialized world as a whole has to accept that, unless they dismantle the trade system they have worked so hard over the last thirty years to build with places like China (but not just China; India and Mexico are also major beneficiaries of offshoring), our manufacturing capacity will continue to decline. I think we're going to look on the period from the 1970s well into the 21st century as the Post-Industrial Age, and like the Industrial Revolution before it, it will mean major demographic shifts. Traditional manufacturing centers like southern Ontario are going to see migrations out of the area (reducing the tax base), what manufacturing that is left will exist only because the unions basically through up their hands and either gave in or find some way to work within a system where wages may very well be only a half or even less of what they were before. Service sector and other related fields will see a rise, but the trouble for places like Ontario, southern and northern England, the North-East United States and so forth is that this kind of economy does not have the geographical limitations that have, since the 18th century, drawn people from far and wide to it. In the old economy, it was, basically, proximity to shipping routes that determined the population centers, but in the age to come, it may very well be proximity to informational, recreational and educational infrastructure, and all sorts of "soft" attractants. Places like Vancouver or Calgary may in fact be far better situated to become the powerhouses of 21st century economic success than Southern Ontario.

I agree with everything you said. Though, if we're talking about a growth in the service industry I'd say Ontario is going to benefit more than any other province. Pretty much every service sector industry is headquartered in Toronto. These days, it's a lot easier to set up a small branch office than to move your entire organization. The days of regional power because of trade routes is coming to a close, but don't think regions of power are going to move. Money, stock, information can all be moved electronically now. Finance, banking, media aren't going to up and move to Calgary or Vancouver. It would cost too much.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The trick for Alberta is to diversify. Many of us here in Alberta have been saying this for years. The entire idea of production based economies is beginning to shift, and what it is shifting to is resource based economies. Good news for the capitalists, at least on the surface. Yet the reality is that capitalism is good for the rich and communism is good for the poor. You are always going to have both groups, but the majority of citizens don't fit into either the rich or the poor class. They work for a living and pay taxes. The downside for the majority of citizens is that through that great and wonderful economic system we have setup, we are now losing those jobs to places with lower labour costs.

The two systems need to be welded together to provide a more functional society. It isn't that complicated, but it will take balls. We need to get serious about the problems we can now see on the horizon. The answer is relatively simple and that is automated production, we can get around the labour costs that way. We have the technology to do this to a very real extent, it isn't science fiction we are talking about here. The trick is to retrain our people to build the robots and service them and the production facilities. There is the transportation of finished products as well as the transportation of raw material to provide as well. We can do this, if we want. It won't be the private sector that can pull this off though because they don't have the resources or the fiscal capacity to do it, so it must be dine by the government. Its called nation building, something we stopped before we finished and that is the root cause of our problems today. We never finished what we started because we didn't realize that there simply is no end to human development. We know it now.

Don't get me wrong this is no mean feat to accomplish. We need to rework just about everything from the foundation up in this nation to get the job done. If we don't do it then we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes and face the same hardships we have already experienced so many time before. It is time to act.

[nicky10013]

The trick for Alberta is to diversify. Many of us here in Alberta have been saying this for years. The entire idea of production based economies is beginning to shift, and what it is shifting to is resource based economies. Good news for the capitalists, at least on the surface. Yet the reality is that capitalism is good for the rich and communism is good for the poor. You are always going to have both groups, but the majority of citizens don't fit into either the rich or the poor class. They work for a living and pay taxes. The downside for the majority of citizens is that through that great and wonderful economic system we have setup, we are now losing those jobs to places with lower labour costs.

The two systems need to be welded together to provide a more functional society. It isn't that complicated, but it will take balls. We need to get serious about the problems we can now see on the horizon. The answer is relatively simple and that is automated production, we can get around the labour costs that way. We have the technology to do this to a very real extent, it isn't science fiction we are talking about here. The trick is to retrain our people to build the robots and service them and the production facilities. There is the transportation of finished products as well as the transportation of raw material to provide as well. We can do this, if we want. It won't be the private sector that can pull this off though because they don't have the resources or the fiscal capacity to do it, so it must be dine by the government. Its called nation building, something we stopped before we finished and that is the root cause of our problems today. We never finished what we started because we didn't realize that there simply is no end to human development. We know it now.

Don't get me wrong this is no mean feat to accomplish. We need to rework just about everything from the foundation up in this nation to get the job done. If we don't do it then we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes and face the same hardships we have already experienced so many time before. It is time to act.

It'll never happen as long as Albertans vote in whoever gives them the biggest tax cut.

[Smallc]

And in order for people like me to keep society rolling, we need to keep more of our money,

Why? Aren't you keeping society rolling right now?

taxes do the opposite of that.

No they don't...well, maybe in your mind they do.

So me spending my money and having a savings account is not helping society.

I'm not sure where I said that.

I have succeeded in spite of society not because of it.

That's utter nonsense. If it weren't for living in a society such as this one, many of us would be as poor as church mice.

Why cant everyone pay the same tax equally if we are all an equal society?

pay tax equally? You want the person making 10K per year to pay as much tax as you?

The fact that leftists think that people who provide jobs, and stimulate the economy more than the average joe should have the extra burden of sky high tax is evil.

Evil? Please. It's not evil at all. It's the way society works. You do well and you give back.

Quebec is the example of a money pit, always has and always will be.

Where did you buy your crystal ball? Hydro Quebec and accessible natural gas are on the rise there.

Ontario was facing problems long before the recession.

Ontario's economy fluctuates with the American economy. They are tied at the hip. Until a couple of years ago (The US entered the recession at the end of 2007) Ontario was running a surplus and had a very rapidly growing economy. Toronto still has a rapidly growing economy.

That's their problem they can't achieve the same growth as Alberta.

No one can, because almost nowhere in the world is there so much of two natural resources so in need that are so accessible. They were growling like Alberta (faster sometimes) until about 2006, when the US started to slow.

Ireland has some of the lowest taxes in the developed world and no oil, yet before the recession they had one of the highest rates of growth in the western world.

And Ireland almost collapsed last year. They also rank lower than us on the HDI (well, almost identical)

Why should I who contributes more to society than you pay twice as much tax as you do?

To contribute to society. You just answered your own question.

Why do you feel you have a right to my money?

Why do you complain so much? You're obviously doing well....and if you're not, well, according to you, that's your own fault. You know the system you're in, deal with it.

For every dollar that gets taken up in my high taxes, that's one less dollar I spend/put in the bank/invest.

And in turn, it's one more person that the government can prevent from dying in the street.

Pre-recession ireland, ranked one of the freest countries in the world, highest quality of life, and low taxes. You get to say how strong Ontario is, I'll play ball with Ireland.

Pre recession Canada did too. Higher in fact: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

Oh, and as for your Irish tax rates, well, they're identical to ours as a percentage of the economy. They simply collect them differently: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_revenue_as_percentage_of_GDP

That was years ago,

My grandmother had cancer in the 80s and in 2005. The Artiste is being put in as we speak, as is the second Gamma Knife...and the Second PET...and the Cyclotron:

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/tomorrows_health_care_today.html

there is no way a hospital in Canada can compete with one in the states as far as fancy equipment goes,

false, from the story above:

SIAM will be one of only six centres in North America with this combination of advanced technology -- the PET scanner, linear accelerator, cyclotron and intra-operative MRI -- providing diagnostic and treatment options currently unavailable in Canada.

that is a clear example of how the private sector destroys public financing as far as getting things done.

Hospitals in Canada are private. They just get government funding and are prohibited from making profits.

If the Canadian system is so good, why do people go to the US.

Why is the number going to the US so miniscule? Most Canadians who receive care in the US only do so because they're already in the US or because a province sent them there for a rare treatment. There are a few that buy treatment of course.....many of them like Shauna Holmes, panicking about very little.

If the US system is so good why is there such a huge debate and so many changes happening. If the Canadian system is so bad, why do so many of us like it?

As far as I'm concerned I got my money's worth, but I guess you would rather have people risk dying because of some socialist nonsense.

As far as I'm concerned, you have no idea what you're talking about. Manitoba has continually falling wait times. My father made an appointment on Friday at HSC with an ENT. He could have seen him Monday. On the other hand, there is a severe shortage of Dermatologists. The thing is though, the US has the same severe shortage of everything that we have shortages of. They have more specialists but fewer GPs.

Yes but they can have a co-signer, and have every opportunity to get earning power.

Did you not read the story that I put on here? Who was going to earn the money? They had to sell what little they had.

And leftists aren't the only people that live in Canada, and not everyone is as unfortunate as they are. In my profession there is no luck, it's skilled management.

That's a very selfish way to look at things again. Leftists don't think we're the only ones who live here. That's why we don't advocate for complete government control. We advocate for balance.

The market decides what happens to shady people, they lose their shirts.Sure....and so does everyone else that they took for a ride.If people are dumb enough to invest in them, that's their problem. The rest of that part is tin-foil hattetness. If a business is poorly managed, the market will always punish them. The CRA is an example of how regulations interrupt the normal flow of business and cause long term chaos, had their been no CRA, those poor trash would have to get jobs/start up businesses in order to get money to buy a house.

Poor trash? As for the rest, I don't think if seen such a collection of naive statements in my life thus far. Canada is an example of what good regulation can do. We're one of the few that has so far done things right.

This country won't die, this country can take as long as it wants to pay off the debt. Paying off the debt shouldn't be a result of soaking high earners 44%, it should come with an increased tax base, which is a result of lower taxes.

The first rule of becoming wealthy is to save a small amount of money just in case. The second rule is to pay off any debt that costs you more than equivalent savings could earn. Paying off debt should be an important priority for all entities, whether it be people, business, or government.

Wrong, that's under $126,000.

Actually, you're a bit high at 44%, but relatively close:

https://apps.cra-arc.gc.ca/ebci/rhpd/calculatePayrollDeductionsJan10.do

According to this (which is spot on for me) it should be just under 40%

Like I said, I am well within my rights to speak about that.

And?

So what your saying that people who disagree with you should leave the country?

No, I'm saying that people who disagree with what is the will of the populace shouldn't pretend they speak for some kind of majoirty and expect everyone to change to their opinion.

Well looks like you are advocating Quebec and Alberta separation.

Yes, me the staunch federalist patriot.

Under your parameters, it sounds like your fine if the people of Alberta want to declare independence.

Sure, if the clarity act is satisfied, who am I to argue?

The sooner leftists realize to accept that a large portion of the population can think for themselves and aren't brainwashed by a grade 9 social studies textbook, the better off our country will be.

There's really nothing else to say to that.

Tell that to Stephane Dion. Hell even PMPM and Chretien knew to campaign on lower taxes.

Did Stephane Dion lead his party to victory? Did I vote for them? (no on both accounts) It wasn't the will of the populace. That said, we are going to end up paying for carbon somehow, no matter what.

Hell Jack Layton tried the heart strings argument, and he can't even break out of his rut!

Actually, as much as I despise Layton, he brought the NDP to a pretty good showing last election.

Alberta has the lowest tax in the country, not much people slip through the cracks there!

Because they have so much oil money...but Albertans do carry the most debt. I don't remember where I saw that statistic. They also have very few assets. That bubble is going to burst eventually. In a way, it's already started to. It's really too bad.

In reality, in this society it is the responsibility of all of us to look after ourselves, anything else is a fairy tale.

If you're talking about Canada, that's a bunch of BS.

That example is not me, that example is Robert Herjavec. Everyone has their own talents, I cannot play hockey, someone else can. Just because some people are too lazy to cash in on their talents is not my problem. By me making money and spending/saving in a bank/investing it, I am making the lives of those around me better, and at a far better rate than government handouts ever will. I think I understand humanity well, and it's not the fairy tale you keep telling.

I'm not telling a fairy tale. I know people that don't work who can and should. Still, I'm not going to live in some kind of dream world where a human life is unimportant just because they don't contribute the same as me.

Government's role is to provide an environment that allows people to better themselves, not to punish people.

And that's pretty much what our government does.

But you say that government knows how to spend money more than most people, so in your case its a do as I say, not as I do. If you think a government knows how to spend money the best, cut them a large cheque and live off what the government gives you back, and see how that turns out.

I've already told you that I don't agree with that. You stating it over and over again isn't going to somehow convince me that it's what I believe should happen.

Why should those few people be punished, just because there are few of them? I thought you were all about equality, or is it only when it suits you?

Only in a very strange world are the top 5% of income earners (of which you are a part) in the country being punished.

Edited January 10, 2010 by Smallc