M.Dancer Posted December 15, 2009 Report Posted December 15, 2009 (edited) The fact is agnostics do not believe in god for whatever reason, . . the fact is you are clearly incorrect. Better to say, agnostics, while believing tere may be a god, do not have faith in any god. Edited December 15, 2009 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted December 15, 2009 Report Posted December 15, 2009 Listen to Gods voice. It's inside each and every one of us as is Satans. God and Satan sometimes talk about me as if I'mn not in the same room. How rude. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
Shwa Posted December 15, 2009 Report Posted December 15, 2009 This is no universally accepted definition of atheism so don't even try to act like there is. AND That's what they call argumentum ad dictionarum. Don't get your panties in a bunch fellas, I said 'common ground' if you had bothered to actually read what I wrote. Common ground as a common understanding of the meaning of a word/concept. Which is why I referenced three common, everyday acceptable dictionaries. I could have referenced 5 or 10 or 20, but I had time constraints. The point I was trying to make to our agnostic friend here, is that atheism and agnosticism - by defintion - do not refer to the same thing despite his ardent wishes that they do. Now, as for 'absence of belief" being significantly different from 'not believing' or 'having no belief' please, let's hear your arguments on this in context of our modern culture here. Quote
ToadBrother Posted December 15, 2009 Report Posted December 15, 2009 Now, as for 'absence of belief" being significantly different from 'not believing' or 'having no belief' please, let's hear your arguments on this in context of our modern culture here. Absence of belief is essentially the Null Hypothesis, in which no claim is considered true until it is demonstrated to be so. "Not believing" is a much more positive claim; as in "I don't believe in leprechauns". Quote
ToadBrother Posted December 15, 2009 Report Posted December 15, 2009 (edited) God and Satan sometimes talk about me as if I'mn not in the same room. How rude. And then it's three A.M. And Satan's on the corner, wearing his leather God comes up and He's, like, "hey, punk!" Satan's, like, "yeah, whatever!" Edited December 15, 2009 by ToadBrother Quote
eyeball Posted December 15, 2009 Report Posted December 15, 2009 This is no universally accepted definition of atheism so don't even try to act like there is. I think Heisenberg would grok this. People actually think they can nail down a consensus opinion on this in this forum with this crowd...? Even God herself lacks the capacity it would take to suspend that much disbelief. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
jbg Posted December 15, 2009 Report Posted December 15, 2009 Atheists simply do not believe in dogma and the dogmatic Atheists are not really Atheists at all.How do atheists handle Judaism, which is both a religion and a nationality? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Shwa Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 Absence of belief is essentially the Null Hypothesis, in which no claim is considered true until it is demonstrated to be so. "Not believing" is a much more positive claim; as in "I don't believe in leprechauns". But the hypothetical atheist still has to answer the hypothetical question: do you believe in God? There are millions of people who demonstrate daily that their claim of the existance of God is true. Null Hypothesis suggests that the question hasn't been considered. The point being is that we can philosophize, but it is a rare person indeed, in our society, who has not had the God-concept question in their lifetime. For instance, Maple_Leafs182 defines God as the Universe. I doubt even the most ardent atheist could argue that very well. Quote
Shwa Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 People actually think they can nail down a consensus opinion I can't speak for people, but I can speak for myself and I think that a consensus on meanings is very possible within the active participants of a particular discussion. Of course we might have a problem defining what an 'active participant' means... Quote
M.Dancer Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 (edited) But the hypothetical atheist still has to answer the hypothetical question: do you believe in God? Let me try... YOU: Do you believe in God? Atheist: I don't understand the question. Do you mean, "Do I believe in a particular god or gods?", or do you mean "do I believe in the capital G god, AKA Yahweh, Jehovah etc?", or do you mean, "do I believe there is a supernatural deity?" Could you clarify the question. There are millions of people who demonstrate daily that their claim of the existence of God is true. Are they demonstrating it to the perpetually gullible? I would think millions daily demonstrating I would have been exposed to this apocalypse... For instance, Maple_Leafs182 defines God as the Universe. I doubt even the most ardent atheist could argue that very well. He is free to consider God to be what ever he wants it to be, as such he is no difference the the animist who believes that the rocks and trees etc are God. Neither can hold a two way conversation with "god"....or count on his manifest blessings beating the laws of probability.... Edited December 16, 2009 by M.Dancer Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
eyeball Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 He is free to consider God to be what ever he wants it to be, as such he is no difference the the animist who believes that the rocks and trees etc are God. Neither can hold a two way conversation with "god"... No...he'd only have himself to talk to. Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
Shwa Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 Could you clarify the question. Clarification - any of them will do. Or, if you don't understand the question: Do you believe in God/gods/supernatural deities? Are they demonstrating it to the perpetually gullible? No, they are demonstrating to anyone. But the point is, if atheism is essentially 'like' the null hypothesis that requires a demonstration, then it is being demonstrated all the time according to the believers. For instance, Maple_Leafs182 demonstrates that God is the Universe, so God must be true if the Universe is. Quote
M.Dancer Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 Clarification - any of them will do. Or, if you don't understand the question: Do you believe in God/gods/supernatural deities? I assume you understand the qualifications. There is a difference between believing in and believing. For the record, I fall in the agnostic category. I claim no belief in a particular deity nor do I presume there I can know for sure. For instance, Maple_Leafs182 demonstrates that God is the Universe, so God must be true if the Universe is. But he hasn't demonstrated it. He claimed it, there is a huge difference. Especially since the universe can be the universe without it being a supernatural being. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
cybercoma Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 How do atheists handle Judaism, which is both a religion and a nationality? Why would there be a need to "handle" it? Your beliefs have nothing to do with mine. When Jews try to force their doctrine to be taught in schools, use their faith as a reason to stop life-saving medical research, use their religion as an excuse to deny basic human rights to people, or attack me because I don't believe in their God, then we'll have a problem. Until then, I don't care what they believe. In fact, Happy Chanukkah my Jewish friend! Quote
cybercoma Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 For the record, I fall in the agnostic category. I claim no belief in a particular deity nor do I presume there I can know for sure. So then you don't believe in God, nor do you believe that God doesn't exist. You have an absence of belief in God, so you're an Atheist.Does no one really see my point? I mean sure, if you want me to say I'm an agnostic, then fine. I'm an agnostic. I believe that it's very highly improbable that God exists. So improbable that for all intents and purposes I believe God does not exist. Should evidence to the contrary arise, I will re-evaluate my position. Until them, I'm an atheist. Quote
cybercoma Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 Good thing I didn't get into the idea of being a Christian without believing in God. That really ruffles some feathers. Quote
M.Dancer Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 So then you don't believe in God, nor do you believe that God doesn't exist. You have an absence of belief in God, so you're an Atheist. Does no one really see my point? If I was an atheist, I would hold that God does not exist, EOS. I mean sure, if you want me to say I'm an agnostic, then fine. No, your belief or non belief is of no interest to me. I'm an agnostic. I believe that it's very highly improbable that God exists. So improbable that for all intents and purposes I believe God does not exist. Should evidence to the contrary arise, I will re-evaluate my position. Until them, I'm an atheist. Sounds like you are not agnostic, once you believe that evidence may change your opinion you cannot be agnostic, an agnostic doesn't believe rational knowledge of God, one way or another is possible. A deist doesn't need rational knowledge to believe... Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
jbg Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 When Jews try to force their doctrine to be taught in schools, use their faith as a reason to stop life-saving medical research, use their religion as an excuse to deny basic human rights to people, or attack me because I don't believe in their God, then we'll have a problem. Until then, I don't care what they believe.I part company from those kind of Jews as much as you do. In fact, Happy Chanukkah my Jewish friend! Thanks. Merry Christmas or, as appropriate, Happy Holidays. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Michael Hardner Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 Good thing I didn't get into the idea of being a Christian without believing in God. That really ruffles some feathers. Hey, that's me too ! I thought I was the only one. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Michael Hardner Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 Hey, that's me too ! I thought I was the only one. But I consider myself an Agnostic Christian, because I believe that an Atheist is someone who believes firmly there is NO God. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Mr.Canada Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 But I consider myself an Agnostic Christian, because I believe that an Atheist is someone who believes firmly there is NO God. The only thing you know for sure is that I am not Jesus Christ no matter how hard I try, right Michael? Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
cybercoma Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 What do you suppose the chances are that there is a God, Mr. Hardner? Do you believe there is an even 50/50 split? Quote
charter.rights Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 The only thing you know for sure is that I am not Jesus Christ no matter how hard I try, right Michael? Jesus is dead. Get over it! Quote “Safeguarding the rights of others is the most noble and beautiful end of a human being.” Kahlil Gibran “Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.” Albert Einstein
Guest TrueMetis Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 But I consider myself an Agnostic Christian, because I believe that an Atheist is someone who believes firmly there is NO God. I consider myself atheist and still think there is a chance there are/is god(s) though odds are there isn't one in any sense. I would have to see empirical proof that god(s) exsist before I accept him but I will never believe because that imply's no proof. I try not to believe in anything. When there is no proof of something I take the default position that odds are it doesn't exsist. (default posistion for me anyway) Quote
Michael Hardner Posted December 16, 2009 Report Posted December 16, 2009 The only thing you know for sure is that I am not Jesus Christ no matter how hard I try, right Michael? HEY ! I thought you had me on IGNORE ! You lied, Jesus, you lied. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
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