wyly Posted December 9, 2009 Report Posted December 9, 2009 With that attitude don't expect anyone to come to Canada's help in this increasing troubled and overpopulated world, especially if the USA becomes isolationist & continues its decline as a world power. that's quite a stretch... And do we wait until another 9/11, right?Maybe one in Toronto, as well as in a few US cities, carried out with dirty bombs or cannisters full of KCN or Sarin assembled and smuggled out of Afghanistan free of NATO troops? I hope you don't live in Toronto then. 9/11 happened precisely because of the USA screwing around in other countries affairs...the only surprise was that it took so long to happen...in CIA terminology it's called Blowback...don't piss in other peoples back yards and they won't piss in yours... To make this personal; Did you know the Taliban care nothing about your life, and they would have no qualms about taking your life?until we invaded they didn't know who we were or cared they had no interest in us...they only wanted to live their lives they way they thought was right(no matter that it was barbaric by our standards)... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
eyeball Posted December 10, 2009 Author Report Posted December 10, 2009 With that attitude don't expect anyone to come to Canada's help in this increasing troubled and overpopulated world, especially if the USA becomes isolationist & continues its decline as a world power. You're suggesting I shouldn't expect anyone to come to our rescue if the US invades us? And do we wait until another 9/11, right?Maybe one in Toronto, as well as in a few US cities, carried out with dirty bombs or cannisters full of KCN or Sarin assembled and smuggled out of Afghanistan free of NATO troops? I hope you don't live in Toronto then. No I haven't lived in TO for decades, but I do have family there. Having troops in Afghanistan won't do anything to prevent any of these things. These scenarios can only be addressed by good old fashioned police work. We could probably best prevent them by not sticking our nose in places it doesn't belong but, like other wars on fill-in-blank-here, this sort of prevention is not our forte. To make this personal; Did you know the Taliban care nothing about your life, and they would have noqualms about taking your life? So what, they probably feel the way about the whole human race. I'm convinced that if we simply leave them to their own devices they'll soon be too overwhelmed trying to justify their existence to their own people to have any time or resources to even think about overwhelming us. Our being there is the main thing giving them a raison d'être. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
Army Guy Posted December 10, 2009 Report Posted December 10, 2009 Camaraderie, going with the flow? Lets face it, cultivating a disdain for the enemy is part of being a soldier, its why soldiers use dehumanizing terms like scum-bag, animal, and extermination when talking about the enemy. There is more to being a soldier than, Camaraderie, going with the flow, Soldiers are governed by many different laws and rules that dictate our actions, our way of thinking, our conduct....Civil law, military law, and inter-national law, plus the GC that Canada has signed on to. Break any of those laws and a soldier will be punished, in some cases on three different levels, for the same crime. Soldiers also have a code on honour that wraps all the above into one package, ensuring that a soldier does the right thing, at the right time. So while soldiers may be agressive in the terms they use to discribe the enemy, it's done for good reason, our primary job is to close with and destroy them, via the use of deadly force dehumunizing them is to make this job easier....but it does not mean that a soldier is uncapable of showing compasion,or be a good humanitarian when needed... Speaking for myself, I've never been in closer communication with soldiers and hard-core mission supporters than in this forum. I have to say its been the often nasty comments and attitudes of some of these have certainly added a fair bit of weight to my doubts. I don't recall, ever getting nasty or coming across with an attitude with you, and if i have then i'm sorry it was not my intent. It has never been my intent to place doubt in your mind in regards to mine or other soldiers conduct or what they may be capable of doing. Most soldiers take great pride in adhereing to the military honour code. it is what keeps them balanced in very difficult times. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Army Guy Posted December 10, 2009 Report Posted December 10, 2009 if your directing the question at me...I haven't blamed the troops for anything, I'm more concerned with the government hiding the truth, these government promised openess but they're giving us nothing close to that... I was, I was frustrated with this whole event, as we just went thru with it just awhile ago, in reards to troops roughing up POW's which turned out to be false...And it looked like this was a repeat, however as time goes on it turns out that we all have been lied to, and it is very disappionting, as it will cast even more doubt on Canadians minds in regards to this mission. A mission that our nations soldiers have worked so hard at, and gave so much to...These lies threaten to undo all of that. Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Argus Posted December 10, 2009 Report Posted December 10, 2009 yes, it's an Afghan problem they have to solve it...do we invade Saudi Arabia or Iran for similar treatment of their women? no it's their society their problem... either we hold them or leave, if we can't trust the government of afghanistan to behave better than the government we removed then we shouldn't be there... They're behaving considerably better than the government we removed - else you wouldn't have any testimony from people who had been released. The Taliban would have killed them. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 10, 2009 Report Posted December 10, 2009 until we invaded they didn't know who we were or cared they had no interest in us...they only wanted to live their lives they way they thought was right(no matter that it was barbaric by our standards)... Then they shouldn't have harbored a 10,000 man training camp for al Quaeda. And it was barbaric by ANY civilized standards. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted December 10, 2009 Author Report Posted December 10, 2009 (edited) I don't recall, ever getting nasty or coming across with an attitude with you, and if i have then i'm sorry it was not my intent. It has never been my intent to place doubt in your mind in regards to mine or other soldiers conduct or what they may be capable of doing. Most soldiers take great pride in adhereing to the military honour code. it is what keeps them balanced in very difficult times. I'm sorry if I've given you reason to think I was singling you out. In any case I chalk up most nastiness that is occasionally directed towards me personally to the general polarization of this war that has spread throughout much of our society. This is one of the main reasons why I was so convinced this was a bad decision to get into it. I was, I was frustrated with this whole event, as we just went thru with it just awhile ago, in reards to troops roughing up POW's which turned out to be false...And it looked like this was a repeat, however as time goes on it turns out that we all have been lied to, and it is very disappionting, as it will cast even more doubt on Canadians minds in regards to this mission. A mission that our nations soldiers have worked so hard at, and gave so much to...These lies threaten to undo all of that. The other reason was my conviction that it would ultimately be the politicians who would make this such a vain effort. I notice Obama is talking the talk this morning about the folly of not stooping to an enemies level, that's more or less what I read between his lines at least. It strikes me as being just a little too late for that...especially with things like Islamic State of Iraq on the rise. Whack-a-mole...that was another good reason not to wade into this mess as I recall. Edited December 10, 2009 by eyeball Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
wyly Posted December 10, 2009 Report Posted December 10, 2009 I was, I was frustrated with this whole event, as we just went thru with it just awhile ago, in reards to troops roughing up POW's which turned out to be false...And it looked like this was a repeat, however as time goes on it turns out that we all have been lied to, and it is very disappionting, as it will cast even more doubt on Canadians minds in regards to this mission. A mission that our nations soldiers have worked so hard at, and gave so much to...These lies threaten to undo all of that. unlike somalia I don't see any evidence the soldiers have done any wrong, even taking back prisoners who were tortured...from all accounts the reports were that the government knew all along torture and likely executions were going on they lied to us telling us it never happen, not even once...and now I hear from a general it was common and well known, everyone seemed to know except the government(or so they claim) ...the government has put the military/canadians of potentially being involved in war crimes... Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
wyly Posted December 10, 2009 Report Posted December 10, 2009 Then they shouldn't have harbored a 10,000 man training camp for al Quaeda. And it was barbaric by ANY civilized standards. oh so now the admition we didn't go in to save those poor afghan women...and who created that situation for all this to occur?...the USA and it's CIA funded and trained mujahedeen, and the mujahedeen weren't barbaric???who was a prime mover in the mujahedeen? Osama...the USA created the monster and the vaccum the Taliban entered.. Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
Mr.Canada Posted December 10, 2009 Report Posted December 10, 2009 Who really cares if some Taliban are tortured? These people are scum. They harbor terrorists and support terrorism. I don't really care if they're tortured and I'm sure the majority of Canadians don't either. The Taliban is trying to kill Canadian soldiers everyday and people here and the left wing media care more about their treatment then of our own troops. Common sense isn't all that common. Quote "You are scum for insinuating that isn't the case you snake." -William Ashley Canadian Immigration Reform Blog
Argus Posted December 10, 2009 Report Posted December 10, 2009 unlike somalia I don't see any evidence the soldiers have done any wrong, even taking back prisoners who were tortured...from all accounts the reports were that the government knew all along torture and likely executions were going on No, actually, from all reports they knew no such thing. They might have been peripherally aware that prisoners in Afghan prisons were quite possibly in for some rough treatment - but then Afghanistan is a rough place where beatings and violence are fairly commonplace. Frok the testimony I heard the officers on the ground were overwhelmed with a wide variety of duties, including planning and monitoring numerous missions every day and trying to build infrastructure, train Afghan's, protect Canadian civilians, and coordinate the efforts of other allies. And even amidst this they did their best to monitor and ensure prisoners were not unduly abused. Note I say "unduly" because there is no way we can guarantee that workers or villagers or even soldiers aren't physically abused from time to time by those around them or by those over them. Afghanistan is a rough society and a fist is never far from evident in any hiearachal relationship there. they lied to us telling us it never happen, not even once... Never said any such thing. They said they were never aware of any instance of someone being turned over by Canadians being abused. And apparently they weren't aware until the other day. and now I hear from a general it was common and well known, Would this be General Fantasy who told you that? Maybe you'd like to cite where any canadian general said such things were common and well known. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted December 10, 2009 Report Posted December 10, 2009 It's intersting that the with all the problems and difficulties facing Canada, the only thing the united Opposition can find time for is their anguish and hair-pulling over some taliban guy who was beat up three years ago by his own government. Oh, but it's because of their earnest care for human rights! But weren't these same people just telling us last week that Harper shouldn't be concerned about human rights in China, criticising him for neglecting business over them? Wasn't Ignatieff blithely trying to explain why we shouldn't bother the Chinese over things like that? So A taliban guy getting beat up is cause of national concern, but hundreds of people being executed for their religious beliefs and their body parts sold abroad - that's nothing to bother with. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
madmax Posted December 10, 2009 Report Posted December 10, 2009 (edited) They're behaving considerably better than the government we removed - else you wouldn't have any testimony from people who had been released. The Taliban would have killed them. Depends on who they were, who their family members were, how much bribe money was available. The Taliban use the same Pashtunwali code as the current government. In a nutshell no you are 100% wrong. The treatment of prisoners by Afghans hasn't changed and won't change. Stop the silly comparisons. We knew full well what would happen to prisoners. Plenty of evidence and plenty of history to draw from. This time, shit is going uphill and it won't get pinned on our soldiers. Edited December 10, 2009 by madmax Quote
eyeball Posted December 10, 2009 Author Report Posted December 10, 2009 So while soldiers may be agressive in the terms they use to discribe the enemy, it's done for good reason, our primary job is to close with and destroy them, via the use of deadly force dehumunizing them is to make this job easier....but it does not mean that a soldier is uncapable of showing compasion,or be a good humanitarian when needed... When I see comments like the one below in light of the attempt of the government to shrug off the issue of tortured detainees I'm left wondering if this process of dehumanization is trickling down through society from on high or welling up from the grass roots. Who really cares if some Taliban are tortured? These people are scum. They harbor terrorists and support terrorism. I don't really care if they're tortured and I'm sure the majority of Canadians don't either. The Taliban is trying to kill Canadian soldiers everyday and people here and the left wing media care more about their treatment then of our own troops. Common sense isn't all that common. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
capricorn Posted December 10, 2009 Report Posted December 10, 2009 It's intersting that the with all the problems and difficulties facing Canada, the only thing the united Opposition can find time for is their anguish and hair-pulling over some taliban guy who was beat up three years ago by his own government. Actually Argus, perhaps if we did have more problems and difficulties, the Taliban detainee issue wouldn't be so high profile right now. I'm thinking back to 2007 when the same issues and allegations were raised about detainees by the opposition. At the same time, signs of the recession were everywhere and all attention was turned to how the country would cope with the global economic downturn. The opposition then relented on the detainee issue. Now that we are into economic recovery and a H1N1 pandemic has not materialized, the opposition desperately needed a vulnerability with which to corner the Conservatives. So up pops Colvin and events unfolded to revive possibly the only file on which the Conservatives could be tripped up. The opposition parties really don't give a sweet flying fox fart about what goes on in Afghan jails. For political gain, they demoralize our soldiers and put them at risk on the ground in Afghanistan. They care nothing that the foreign media runs stories about Canada perpetrating war crimes. Now what remains to be seen is whether average Canadians feel so strongly about the treatment of the Taliban in Afghan jails that they will boot the Conservatives in the next election. In the final analysis, as things stand that's all the opposition has to go on. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
wyly Posted December 11, 2009 Report Posted December 11, 2009 (edited) No, actually, from all reports they knew no such thing. They might have been peripherally aware that prisoners in Afghan prisons were quite possibly in for some rough treatment - but then Afghanistan is a rough place where beatings and violence are fairly commonplace. Frok the testimony I heard the officers on the ground were overwhelmed with a wide variety of duties, including planning and monitoring numerous missions every day and trying to build infrastructure, train Afghan's, protect Canadian civilians, and coordinate the efforts of other allies. And even amidst this they did their best to monitor and ensure prisoners were not unduly abused. Note I say "unduly" because there is no way we can guarantee that workers or villagers or even soldiers aren't physically abused from time to time by those around them or by those over them. Afghanistan is a rough society and a fist is never far from evident in any hiearachal relationship there.we "Canada" is bound by International Law to ensure that prisoners are not tortured and that Canada does not knowingly deliver detainees to someone who will torture that detainee...to knowingly do so is a war crime...Never said any such thing. They said they were never aware of any instance of someone being turned over by Canadians being abused. And apparently they weren't aware until the other day.they've been told repeatedly what went on in afghan prisons, everyone knows detainees were tortured and killed in prisons in afghanistan but our government, oh ya that's real plausible...Colvin was personally attacked by the government for saying he brought it up repeatedly, but was told to stay quiet and that goes back to 2006, but Colvin was obviously a socialist liar...Mckay-"There has not been a single, solitary proven allegation of abuse involving a transferred Taliban prisoner by Canadian forces" Would this be General Fantasy who told you that? Maybe you'd like to cite where any canadian general said such things were common and well known.that would be General Walter Natynczyk Chief of the Defence Staff who yesterday who released "notes suggesting it was common knowledge in 2006 among Canadian soldiers that Afghan authorities abused captives. The Geneva Conventions make it a war crime to knowingly transfer prisoners to those who would abuse them." apparently our conservative overlords think Canadians are all stupid(well at least their supporters)...when canadian soldiers take pictures of detainees before handing then over to Afghan officials, most intelligent people would figure out why they did that, because they suspect something!... the soldiers knew what was going on...but our government turned a blind eye when warned and let it continue...to refuse to hand over the detainees says Canada has no respect for the Afghan government, if that's the case Canadians will question why the hell are we supporting these thugs vs the other thugs and the entire mission is in question... and that won't do because it denies Captain Canada valuable photo ops with the troops... now we have the government and Captain Canada who wrapped himself in the flag and posed for photo ops with the military at every opportunity about to do a turtle and blame it all on the military, "we didn't know, the military didn't tell us, heads will roll"...when the truth is they did know...they ignored warnings...chose to do nothing and deny they knew...then they tried to cover it up and attack the souce of the info(Colvin)...all the while hiding behind the military as cover from criticism and now that the cats out of the bag they're going to blame the military... Edited December 11, 2009 by wyly Quote “Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives.”- John Stuart Mill
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