Marois 'radicalizing' PQ: Charest

[kimmy]

During a weekend meeting, PQ members debated whether access to English-language daycares and the province's junior college system, or CEGEP, should be limited.

(...)

Access to daycares and the CEGEPs is not restricted. Members of the PQ say too many immigrant and francophone students are enrolling in the English-language post-secondary institutions.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2009/11/23/charest-pq.html

They've fought to acquire enough rope to hang themselves... let's see if they can tie a decent noose.

-k

[Machjo]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2009/11/23/charest-pq.html

They've fought to acquire enough rope to hang themselves... let's see if they can tie a decent noose.

-k

Though I'm not a sovereigntist myself, I have discussed the language issue on sovereigntist forums. I like to visit various forums, be they right or left leaning, federalist or sovereigntist, etc. just to exchange ideas.

In one particular exchange, I'd tried to present the idea of promoting French in Quebec through the provision of more instead of less freedom. For example, if the Quebec government is so concerned about English language hegemony in Quebec, then why not adopt the Hungarian second-language instruction model, whereby each school is free to teach the second-language of its choice using any course plan already approved by the Ministry of Education or one produced by the school itself to be presented to the Ministry for approval, and for each pupil to be free to fulfill his high school second-language requirements by sitting a test in the second-language of his choice among any test approved by the Ministry. One possible modification to the Hungarian model that Quebec could adopt would be to grant this freedom to French-medium schools only, with English-medium schools being required to teach French as a second language.

Surprisingly enough, even among sovereigntists, most were opposed to the idea, insisting simultaneously that more restrictions must be imposed on English while making English compulsory. They could not understand the idea of reducing the threat of English not by adding further restrictions to it, but rather by granting more freedom from it.

This, by the way, would not be such a radical idea. In BC, schools are free to choose between French, Spanish, German, Russian, Arabic, and Mandarin Chinese. In Alberta likewise, are free to choose from among various languages. This in fact helps to maintain the position of English in those two provinces by ensuring that English be the only language everyone share in common. Certainly the same would apply in Quebec. If students could choose their second language as they can in BC and Alberta, then French would in fact be the only common language across the province, problem solved. They would no longer need so many restrictions on English because it would no longer be a threat, a threat self-imposed by the Quebec government, ironically enough.

Maybe it's time for Quebec to learn from its Western provincial counterparts or, better yet, Hungary, on that front.

[jbg]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2009/11/23/charest-pq.html

They've fought to acquire enough rope to hang themselves... let's see if they can tie a decent noose.

For the life of me I don't see why QC is given Federal moneys to recompense for self-inflicted damage.

[August1991]

Le Parti québécois (PQ) récolte 41 % des intentions de vote, contre 37 % pour le Parti libéral du Québec (PLQ). C'est la première fois depuis septembre 2007 que le PQ est en avance de quelques points dans les intentions de vote.

Chez les francophones, qui décident du sort de la grande majorité des circonscriptions au Québec, le PQ domine avec 47 % des voix, suivi du PLQ avec 29 %. «C'est la première fois qu'on peut dire que si des élections avaient eu lieu pendant la période du sondage, le PQ aurait formé un gouvernement majoritaire», explique Christian Bourque.

Le Devoir

The poll was taken between 23-26 November.

[fellowtraveller]

In Alberta likewise, are free to choose from among various languages.

Not just languages but programs: learning a language as an option (numerous languages), Immersion programs: French, Mandarin, Arabic. or there are FRancophone (strictly French) schools and school boards. Any child can go to any school too, assuming there is space.

[Machjo]

Not just languages but programs: learning a language as an option (numerous languages), Immersion programs: French, Mandarin, Arabic. or there are FRancophone (strictly French) schools and school boards. Any child can go to any school too, assuming there is space.

Precisely. But there is one thing you'll notice. In Alberta, if English is the medium of instruction, then the school gets to choose the second language. And if English is not the language of instruction, then English must be taught as a second language. As a result, English remains the sole common language across Alberta, and therefore uncontested.

Quebec could learn from Alberta, Hungary, and other such places. For example, it could allow its French-medium schools to teach the second language of their choice, and French-medium students to sit the second-language test of their choice. It could also allow schools to teach in the local indigenous language, or perhaps even in a religious language such as Hebrew, Greek, Arabic, etc. as long as French be taught as the second language. These could be carrots Quebec could wave in front of the faces of linguistic minorities to lure them from English to French. In this way, over time, even if many schools teach English as a medium of instruction, French would still be the only common language across the province, essentially adopting a strategy similar to Alberta's or Hungary's. In fact, I remember reading statistics on second-language learning in various European countries, and it seemed that the higher the percentage of students learning English, the more that government expressed concerns over it. IN France 90% of students choose English, and the French government is in a panic. In Italy, about 81% and dropping over the last years, and though the government has expressed some concern, it seems to be more level-headed about it. And Hungary, with the lowest percentage of students learning English at less than 50% with the rest choosing from among about 20 other languages, I've yet to find any article showing that their government have any concerns over English.

Perhaps Quebec could learn from this.Just stop forcing them to learn English, and you won't need to have all these restrictions on English any more. It's hard to be sympathetic when Quebec's language problem is self-inflicted by making English compulsory.

[jbg]

Perhaps Quebec could learn from this.Just stop forcing them to learn English, and you won't need to have all these restrictions on English any more. It's hard to be sympathetic when Quebec's language problem is self-inflicted by making English compulsory.

Except that since English is the language of large swaths of Quebec and most of the rest of Canada, having a primary French speaker also schooled in Swahili would render that person economically helpless.

[Machjo]

Except that since English is the language of large swaths of Quebec and most of the rest of Canada, having a primary French speaker also schooled in Swahili would render that person economically helpless.

Have you ever lived in small-town Quebec? I have, and I can tell you that most Quebecers who live there have so little use for the English language in their daily lives that they usually forget it after a few years out of high school (and I can add that most of them are educated and some of them are well-paid professionals to boot). No different from the situation in most of English Canada.

While Quebec does indeed need English-language teachers, translators, interpretors, etc., it certainly does not have enough jobs in the language field for all Quebecers. For the majority of Quebecers, the main value of a second language might be to make pen friends or for travel and tourism, for which any second language could do. Besides, if schools were granted the freedom to choose the second-language to teach, or pupils a second language to be tested in, my guess is the free market would influence the decision considerably. In cities like Montreal and Gatineau, for instance, I'm sure most schools would choose to teach Enhglish at the request of parents and pupils, and most pupils would choose to be tested in English, perhaps a few exceptions among certain linguistic minorities aside to preserve their linguistic cultures. In smaller towns, the population would likely be more divided between English and easier languages to fulfil graduation requirements, yet I'm sure even there English would continue to maintain a certain presence.

I can add too that from an economic stand point, the expansion of language options over time would likely benefit Quebec's international tourism industry and expand Quebec's access to international markets, jsut as a similar policy has done for BC and Alberta. No different really.

If you're suggesting that giving schools and pupils a choice of languages would lead to an exodus to other languages, I can't imagine that happening. In fact, in the short term, it would likely be almost impossible to switch owing to the lack of qualified teachers for these other languages.

While granting schools and pupils this freedom would likely reduce the power of English to a degree in Quebec, at least enough to reduce the threat to the French language, I can't imagine your suggestion that an exodus from English would suddenly occur overnight. I'd certianly be interested in reading your view on this though.

[Machjo]

Or another way to look at this? Do you not trust the free market on this point? I'm certainly not a rabid capitalist, but I still lean more in that direction than not, and think in this case at least the market would balance it out for the most part, better than compulsory English would.

[Machjo]

Just to clarify, I do agree with a government ensuring one common language under its jurisdiction for various reasons. One common language suffices though, and there is no need for two. In Quebec, that is French by law, and so the second language ought to vary from person to person so as to allow Quebec to expand its markets worldwide, as BC has done, which is reflected in its second language education policy granting schools a choice from a list of seven second-languages.

[jbg]

Unfortunately, she's now Pre

Just to clarify, I do agree with a government ensuring one common language under its jurisdiction for various reasons. One common language suffices though, and there is no need for two. In Quebec, that is French by law, and so the second language ought to vary from person to person so as to allow Quebec to expand its markets worldwide, as BC has done, which is reflected in its second language education policy granting schools a choice from a list of seven second-languages.

In Quebec, before the mid-1970's Quebec had two and it worked just fine. Most tourism and outside business is English-speaking. I still enjoy traveling there but find the uni-lingual signage a nightmare.

In Europe, most countries use English as a strong working second language. There is no attempt to illegalize it's use. Should be the same in Quebec.

Marois' election was a worst-case scenario.