Afghan prisoner abuse trial

[naomiglover]

Good grief.

Another Conservative vs Liberals war.

The official(s) who knew about the abuses and elected to brush it to the side is/are at fault. Unless Colvin is a big fat liar, then Mckay and the Harper government knew what was happening.

If it turns out that the Liberals knew about it as well, then they should also be held accountable.

[Alta4ever]

All this will amount to is anouther collossal waste of money, for more parlimentary commitee hearings to find well nothing, do nothing, will amount to nothing.

All this is going to do is make laywers money, and help no one.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Alta4ever

[capricorn]

The official(s) who knew about the abuses and elected to brush it to the side is/are at fault. Unless Colvin is a big fat liar, then Mckay and the Harper government knew what was happening.

Think about this naomi. Here's a guy, Colvin, who drops a bomb that he knows will cause chaos not only in Parliament, but for our military on the ground in Afghanistan. And, he refuses to name the sources that led him to conclude that "all" detainees transferred by our military were subjected to torture by Afghan jail keepers. Let me reiterate that Mr. Colvin is presenting a personal conclusion of findings based on some sources that he insists on keeping secret. Why is he protecting those sources? His case would have more credibility if he was willing to name his sources so that their authenticity could be examined.

I am way more concerned about the impact of this on our military than on any politician or bureaucrat. Politicians and bureaucrats come and go but the reputation of our military outlives them. For this reason alone we must get to the bottom of this. I am not endorsing a public enquiry. We'll get nowhere unless Colvin divulges his sources.

If it turns out that the Liberals knew about it as well, then they should also be held accountable.

I agree. Could it be that Colvin's sources include someone in the Liberal Party? We don't know because Colvin won't tell us.

[JaysFan]

Think about this naomi. Here's a guy, Colvin, who drops a bomb that he knows will cause chaos not only in Parliament, but for our military on the ground in Afghanistan. And, he refuses to name the sources that led him to conclude that "all" detainees transferred by our military were subjected to torture by Afghan jail keepers. Let me reiterate that Mr. Colvin is presenting a personal conclusion of findings based on some sources that he insists on keeping secret. Why is he protecting those sources? His case would have more credibility if he was willing to name his sources so that their authenticity could be examined.

I am way more concerned about the impact of this on our military than on any politician or bureaucrat. Politicians and bureaucrats come and go but the reputation of our military outlives them. For this reason alone we must get to the bottom of this. I am not endorsing a public enquiry. We'll get nowhere unless Colvin divulges his sources.

I agree. Could it be that Colvin's sources include someone in the Liberal Party? We don't know because Colvin won't tell us.

Hold a public enquiry and have Colvin reveal his sources at that time. When the Conservatives and their operatives can't get rid of or contaminate evidence of their wrong doing.

[capricorn]

Hold a public enquiry and have Colvin reveal his sources at that time.

That's a very expensive way to have a witness divulge the sources of his allegations. Co.vin obviously feels strongly about what he is raising. It begs the question why is he so reticent about naming names?

[JaysFan]

That's a very expensive way to have a witness divulge the sources of his allegations. Co.vin obviously feels strongly about what he is raising. It begs the question why is he so reticent about naming names?

It also begs the question of why are the Conservatives so quick to shoot down the calls for a public enquiry. What are they afraid of if they've done nothing wrong or have nothing to hide..

[M.Dancer]

Give me a set of Black and Decker power tools, 36 hours and Colvin. I will get him to tell you his sources.

Edited November 20, 2009 by M.Dancer

[Alta4ever]

It also begs the question of why are the Conservatives so quick to shoot down the calls for a public enquiry. What are they afraid of if they've done nothing wrong or have nothing to hide..

Because it will be another huge waste of oney just like Mulroony Shreiber. we spent millions to find out nothing same thing will happen here, millions spent,and nothing will show. If colvin won't name his source it isn't worth the waste, if he does send a small investigative force to address the merits if the claim. Parlimentary investigative commitees are a huge waste of tax payer money, nothing ever comes of them, but the lawyers seem to get a little richer with each one.

[capricorn]

Give me a set of Black and Decker power tools, 36 hours and Colvin. I will get him to tell you his sources.

You are incorrigible...and I love it.

[Topaz]

Maybe he didn't know, maybe he didn't want to know, but, Bernier was over there and has said that HE saw at least one guy that had looked like he had been tortured. There too many people who have seen this to say its not true! I don't think this will hurt the Tories in the eyes of their supporters because they don't really care what the Harper Torys do , just as long as they stay in power! At least, the liberal supporters voted out the Libs over the scam and this shows the Lib supports think more of what is right or wrong than the Torys. IF this is found to be true and that the PMO knew plus others, they may have to watch question period from a jail cell!!

[PocketRocket]

Something that does not seem to have been brought up is this; what arrangements have been made between our military and the Afghan government regarding these detainees??? Are we obliged through some pre-arranged agreement to hand over any captured enemies or suspects???

If that is the case, then they are simply doing what they're mandated to do.

If the "authorities" in Afghanistan who are allegedly committing these acts of torture are indeed under the umbrella of the Afghan government, then are they any better than the people we're over there fighting???

[JaysFan]

Maybe he didn't know, maybe he didn't want to know, but, Bernier was over there and has said that HE saw at least one guy that had looked like he had been tortured. There too many people who have seen this to say its not true! I don't think this will hurt the Tories in the eyes of their supporters because they don't really care what the Harper Torys do , just as long as they stay in power! At least, the liberal supporters voted out the Libs over the scam and this shows the Lib supports think more of what is right or wrong than the Torys. IF this is found to be true and that the PMO knew plus others, they may have to watch question period from a jail cell!!

Very very true Topaz and that in a nutshell is why the Conservatives on here are so quick to disparage and discredit Colvin's testimony.

They're deathly afraid of losing their tenuous grip of power.

Stephen Harper and his fellow Cons watching from a jail cell..now there's some hard time and justice reform that I'd love to see happen.

[capricorn]

Stephen Harper and his fellow Cons watching from a jail cell..now there's some hard time and justice reform that I'd love to see happen.

Jailing all Conservative politicians is the only way Liberals could win government at this time. I imagine Liberal supporters everywhere are salivating at the thought. The way things are looking in current polls, the NDP will have to be jailed too.

[JaysFan]

Because it will be another huge waste of oney just like Mulroony Shreiber. we spent millions to find out nothing same thing will happen here, millions spent,and nothing will show. If colvin won't name his source it isn't worth the waste, if he does send a small investigative force to address the merits if the claim. Parlimentary investigative commitees are a huge waste of tax payer money, nothing ever comes of them, but the lawyers seem to get a little richer with each one.

Conservatives idea of how to investigate their own when caught in a scandal = sweep sweep under the rug, nothing to see here.

We've already seen evidence of this here with the 18 month cover up.

[JaysFan]

Jailing all Conservative politicians is the only way Liberals could win government at this time. I imagine Liberal supporters everywhere are salivating at the thought. The way things are looking in current polls, the NDP will have to be jailed too.

Your inflated estimate of the Conservative's hold on power speaks volumes of just how tenuous their grip is.

One good scandal will be enough to send them packing.

[capricorn]

One good scandal will be enough to send them packing.

Oh it's no secret that the Liberals have been praying for a scandal to unseat the Conservatives. One noteworthy scandal that sent Liberals packing is still paying dividends.

Sponsorship player gets two years in prison

Former adman Gilles-André Gosselin, who billed taxpayers $655,276 in fake invoices, pleaded guilty to fraud.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/sponsorship-player-pleads-guilty-to-fraud/article1370440/

Yes, talk of torture leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Yet, average Canadians look to 2011 when our military involvement in Afghanistan comes to an end and all this will be history. But they are not convinced that the Liberal Party has purged itself of the root cause of the rot behind the sponsorship scandal. That's why Ignatieff has dropped calling for an election and the polls consistently show the Conservatives in the lead.

[Alta4ever]

Conservatives idea of how to investigate their own when caught in a scandal = sweep sweep under the rug, nothing to see here.

We've already seen evidence of this here with the 18 month cover up.

What evidence?

All that has been produced is the word of one colvin.

You have provided no links to the Conservative government all that has been proved is that detainees were transferred to letter of the agreement with the Afghan government as per the arrangements made by the liberals of the time.

So unless you have some verifiable evidence that warrants an investigation, quit Trying to waste tax money that is much better spent on domestic issues like health care.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Alta4ever

[waldo]

AS shown by waldo's link to the NYT in thread # 5 on afghan detainees, it was the Liberals who started it.

You wear desperation quite well... let's recap: right in the midst of an election campaign, Chief of Defence Staff, Rick Hillier, signed the detainee transfer agreement between DND and the Afghan government on Dec18, 2005. The election occured Jan23, 2006 and the Harper Conservatives officially formed the government Feb6, 2006. But, in your best deflection posture... "the Liberals started it".

As early as April 2006, former Conservative Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor had to respond to questions concerning alleged detainee abuse... O'Connor said there was no abuse occurring and that Canada was relying on the Red Cross to supervise the detainees and that if there were problems the Red Cross would inform Canada. For the better part of a year, O'Connor consistently repeated this same theme each and every time he was questioned/challenged about detainee abuse. In March 2007, the Red Cross issued a statement fully and absolutely contradicting the past years Conservative/O'Connor statements... bringing forward the correction/apology from former Conservative Defence Minister Gordon O'Conner:

Red Cross contradicts Ottawa on detainees

The International Committee of the Red Cross confirmed Wednesday that it has no role in monitoring the Canada-Afghanistan detainee-transfer agreement, in direct contradiction to assurances Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor has made to the House of Commons.

[eyeball]

It seems that the cringing left would like the standards for evidence to be weakened so that hearsay has equal standing to eye witness...and that accused and alledged equals guilty.

That is just a straight up lie considering the way hearsay, allegation and guilt has been applied towards Omar Khadr by the right which of course are nearly constantly attended by a rain of pejorative references to the left.

I'd have to say your utter incapacity for any shame whatsoever indicates a deep psycho-pathological condition. You need help.

[waldo]

What evidence?

All that has been produced is the word of one colvin.

The torture and the paper trail

Mr. Colvin does not stand alone in his conclusions; notably, Graeme Smith of The Globe and Mail, has assembled substantial evidence of such torture.

.

.

.

This week, the dismissive antagonism of some Conservative MPs, including Mr. MacKay's parliamentary secretary, Laurie Hawn, in response to Mr. Colvin's testimony, raises a disappointing inference that partisanism continues to prevail over a sense of common humanity.

[naomiglover]

The other thread was deleted, but my response to capricorn survived:

Think about this naomi. Here's a guy, Colvin, who drops a bomb that he knows will cause chaos not only in Parliament, but for our military on the ground in Afghanistan.

You got it wrong.

The reports on torture have been making rounds within the Foreign Affairs and National Defense departments for months. All this news we are hearing is not "new".

The bomb you speak of dropped a long time ago without the public's knowledge.

Now Mackay wants to know why these reports never made it to his desk, even though they reached others' desks.

And, he refuses to name the sources that led him to conclude that "all" detainees transferred by our military were subjected to torture by Afghan jail keepers.

This is not about his sources. This is about the Harper government not acting on these reports and then trying to keep the information from getting out.

Let me reiterate that Mr. Colvin is presenting a personal conclusion

I believe he is presenting a professional conclusion. Afterall, he is a senior intelligence officer who has been promoted to Washington. Trying to portray Colvin and this situation as 'personal' is dishonest. Sloppy character assassination will only reduce your credibility.

I am way more concerned about the impact of this on our military than on any politician or bureaucrat. Politicians and bureaucrats come and go but the reputation of our military outlives them. For this reason alone we must get to the bottom of this. I am not endorsing a public enquiry. We'll get nowhere unless Colvin divulges his sources.

Instead of sweeping the information under the rug, why not face them head on and try to fix the problem?

All other NATO members have a protocol in accordance to international law, in how prisoners should be handled. Canada does not. This is an opportunity for the Canadian military to get it right.

I agree. Could it be that Colvin's sources include someone in the Liberal Party? We don't know because Colvin won't tell us.

Stop trying to deflect and playing the ugly partisanship act. The current government knew about the reports from Colvin for some time and they did not do anything about it and apparently tried to sweep it under the rug. This is a problem that needs to be fixed.

[JaysFan]

Oh it's no secret that the Liberals have been praying for a scandal to unseat the Conservatives. One noteworthy scandal that sent Liberals packing is still paying dividends.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/sponsorship-player-pleads-guilty-to-fraud/article1370440/

Yes, talk of torture leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Yet, average Canadians look to 2011 when our military involvement in Afghanistan comes to an end and all this will be history. But they are not convinced that the Liberal Party has purged itself of the root cause of the rot behind the sponsorship scandal. That's why Ignatieff has dropped calling for an election and the polls consistently show the Conservatives in the lead.

Well one wonders just how deep the rot will be when the Conservatives find themselves buried beneath similar developing scandals such as the one that they're being quietly tied to themselves.

Now the ADQ is calling the police on itself.

With high-placed connections in Quebec and Ottawa, the Action democratique's woes will surely generate plenty of attention.

One of those connections in Ottawa is Conservative Sen. Leo Housakos, who is described in one of his corporate bios as the ADQ's chief fundraiser from 2001 to 2008. Housakos has been a senior Conservative organizer and was president of the ADQ's fundraising commission before quitting the job in December after a debacle at the polls that saw the party reduced to seven seats.

Shortly thereafter, Housakos was named a senator by the prime minister.

[Alta4ever]

The torture and the paper trail

an editorial

[capricorn]

The reports on torture have been making rounds within the Foreign Affairs and National Defense departments for months. All this news we are hearing is not "new".

If you had been paying attention, you'd know that reports of torture have been around for years, not months.

[Alta4ever]

If you had been paying attention, you'd know that reports of torture have been around for years, not months.

Your right reports of torture I have one more to add. Its been torture to listen to the socialists/loony left and their half baked ideas for my entire life.