Harper Sales Tax

[madmax]

Once again I ask for a link supporting the claim that content insurance will be taxable.

Anyone? Anyone?

Here is a quote from part of the document I just received at my business.

Insurance

If you act as an agent for an insurance company to arrange insurance coverage

on your client’s goods, you do not collect HST on premiums paid to the

insurance company. Carriers often provide their clients with some protection

against losses or damages. You can self-insure your clients’ goods by including

a risk premium in your charge or by charging a separate amount to your client

for risk protection. In these cases, you are self-insuring against claims for losses

or damages. The charge to your client for this protection takes the same status

as the freight charge for HST purposes.

I have followed your link and will be replying in kind to said distributor.

[Wild Bill]

I lived it too the main difference is in the 60's & 70's you didn't live on credit. In fact I didn't know of anyone with a credit card. Even your house you had a downpayment of 20- 25% which kept prices lower.

Easy credit is part of it Nat but there's much more going on! It used to be that the necessities were within the reach of the average one income family. It was the toys that were expensive. My father worked for the local steel company. He paid a mortgage on a house with that salary, bought a second hand car every couple of years and clothed and fed us kids.

Buying our first colour TV was a BIG deal! He had saved up for months and months and when it was deposited in the living room we were all as happy and proud as we could be.

Nowadays TVs are cheap. So are DVD players, MP3's and all that crap. It's the mortage and the car that's the killer! Mom has to work too but there's not a lot extra from her salary after you pay the day care costs. No wonder few parents have more than 2 kids.

Cable or satellite fees for that TV are rather steep. So's gas and insurance for the car. Or cars, if both partners have one. I now work from home and I am very tempted to give up my vehicle. My customers come to me and the parts I need come by courier. Having no car while the wife is off to work would be a bit inconvenient but the savings are staggering when you add everything up!

I used to believe the story we're always being fed that the cost of living hasn't changed much over the years. We're told that after you factor in inflation things are generally about the same. I no longer believe that at all. About 10 years ago I was learning about StatsCan and inflation indexes. I was shocked to learn that inflation is calculated with a typical family "basket" of goods, including bread, milk, rent or mortgage rates and other likely expenses for the average Canadian family, but that INCREASED TAXES ARE DELIBERATELY LEFT OUT!

Considering that over the 90's we were nickeled and dimed with taxes and user fees on this, that and everything else to the tune of over 1000%! this seems a serious omission!

To me, our standard of living is more accurately calculated by how much disposable income the average citizen has left over once he's paid for his necessities. The rest is available for fun and toys. In the late 60's and 70's young people thought nothing of driving 20 miles to see a favourite band at a favourite watering hole, up to 6 nights a week! Today that band rarely can find more than a couple of Saturday night gigs per month. People just can't afford drinking and dancing like they used to do.

Everytime we start to get ahead we seem to get fleeced more, until the new status quo leaves us just as broke the day before payday. When Moms joined the work force the tax man, the utilities like electricity and heating, the insurance companies and generally everybody who had a hand in our wallet figured we could now afford a bit more. If it had been only one of them doing it we might have handled it but when they all had the same idea it quickly ate up most of that extra income and now two income families are the norm.

Some people claim that folks today are just too greedy but I think that's rather a snap judgement. Take houses, for example. Old codgers can criticize younger folks for buying larger homes. My parents' house was 1200 square feet. Today, you never see a new development offering homes less than 2400 sq ft, all with 3 bedrooms, dining room and all the extras.

What is never mentioned is that the developers are rarely ALLOWED to offer anything smaller! Municipalities have bylaws forcing developers to offer new homes of a certain minimum size, complete with all streets, sidewalks and services. This is so the city can have the maximum tax income immediately. You can go from empty fields to lucrative tax levies in less than 2 years of construction.

So you can't buy a new 1200 sq ft home! You have to compete with everyone else for an older home, likely now in a neighbourhood no longer the nicest in which to raise your kids safely.

There are countless other examples. I'm sure you get my point.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Wild Bill

[msj]

I used to believe the story we're always being fed that the cost of living hasn't changed much over the years. We're told that after you factor in inflation things are generally about the same. I no longer believe that at all. About 10 years ago I was learning about StatsCan and inflation indexes. I was shocked to learn that inflation is calculated with a typical family "basket" of goods, including bread, milk, rent or mortgage rates and other likely expenses for the average Canadian family, but that INCREASED TAXES ARE DELIBERATELY LEFT OUT!

Considering that over the 90's we were nickeled and dimed with taxes and user fees on this, that and everything else to the tune of over 1000%! this seems a serious omission!

There are many flaws in how Stats Can measures inflation.

The problem you present is not one of them.

Changes to GST/PST/HST are reflected in consumer prices. Changes to user fees are also included in consumer prices to the extent that they have an effect on the price of a good or service that is in the basket.

If you paid attention to the releases at the time that the GST dropped to 6% and then to 5% then you would know that it is considered.

Property taxes and income taxes, of course, are not considered.

Why?

Because we are talking about consumer price inflation.

When the government increases our income taxes (in the 70's, 80's and 90's) and then decrease them (in the 00's) this does not have any immediate nor direct impact on the price of consumer goods/services.

Increasing or decreasing excise taxes does, however, which is why it does show up in the CPI; since inflation is a measures of the prices of goods/services.

You are asking for a different calculation which really comes down to how much disposable income one has left over to buy those goods and services.

To me, our standard of living is more accurately calculated by how much disposable income the average citizen has left over once he's paid for his necessities. The rest is available for fun and toys. In the late 60's and 70's young people thought nothing of driving 20 miles to see a favourite band at a favourite watering hole, up to 6 nights a week! Today that band rarely can find more than a couple of Saturday night gigs per month. People just can't afford drinking and dancing like they used to do.

CPI does not measure standard of living. It is one part of figuring it out along with many other factors.

As for drinking and dancing - drinking costs a whole lot more now than it did back in the 60's thanks to taxes. Those taxes are reflected in CPI when they are changed.

Once again, you are using the wrong statistical tool.

[Wild Bill]

There are many flaws in how Stats Can measures inflation.

The problem you present is not one of them.

Changes to GST/PST/HST are reflected in consumer prices. Changes to user fees are also included in consumer prices to the extent that they have an effect on the price of a good or service that is in the basket.

If you paid attention to the releases at the time that the GST dropped to 6% and then to 5% then you would know that it is considered.

Property taxes and income taxes, of course, are not considered.

Why?

Because we are talking about consumer price inflation.

When the government increases our income taxes (in the 70's, 80's and 90's) and then decrease them (in the 00's) this does not have any immediate nor direct impact on the price of consumer goods/services.

Increasing or decreasing excise taxes does, however, which is why it does show up in the CPI; since inflation is a measures of the prices of goods/services.

You are asking for a different calculation which really comes down to how much disposable income one has left over to buy those goods and services.

CPI does not measure standard of living. It is one part of figuring it out along with many other factors.

As for drinking and dancing - drinking costs a whole lot more now than it did back in the 60's thanks to taxes. Those taxes are reflected in CPI when they are changed.

Once again, you are using the wrong statistical tool.

You're right, it seems. Don't see that changes my point much, however. I was not trying to use an accurate tool so much as illustrate how "offical" explanations do not always match with reality. If I understand you correctly, there doesn't seem to be an official stat that measures living standard by the terms of total income being made up of spending for necessities and how much disposable income is left over to make living worthwhile.

Perhaps that's not the sort of stats that governments like bruited about...

[Topaz]

Another point to this is that Harper has said he wants to paint Canada blue and what better way of doing it than to bribe two of the Liberal governing provinces to take the tax (bait), knowing full well the people will out them in the next provincial election. I wish a reporter would asked Flaherty why he never took the HST when he was finance minister of Ontario if its so good.

[madmax]

I wish a reporter would asked Flaherty why he never took the HST when he was finance minister of Ontario if its so good.

It would go like this..... Flaherty would have implemented the HST if the Liberal Government would have given us $4.3 Billion dollars to bribe the electorate with. He always knew the public could be bougght and that is why he coughed up $4.3 Billion to Ontario. Before he took over as Federal Finance Minister, the books were running surpluses and there was no need to tax the public more. But now that he has totally screwed things up he has decided to join with like minded incompetents in the Province of Ontario. Our only way out of this deficit mess is to increase taxes on the people faced with jobless recovery.

[Topaz]

Today that PC's walked out, in protest against the HST. The PC leader is not against the tax as much as he kept saying that Dalton isn't reducing the tax like other provinces did. The tax will bring in 3 Bil for Ontario and give 5BIL to the Feds. This is all politics for the PCs and why hasn't he talked to his friend Flaherty IF he is so much against it????

[madmax]

Today that PC's walked out, in protest against the HST. The PC leader is not against the tax as much as he kept saying that Dalton isn't reducing the tax like other provinces did. The tax will bring in 3 Bil for Ontario and give 5BIL to the Feds. This is all politics for the PCs and why hasn't he talked to his friend Flaherty IF he is so much against it????

Well, this isn't surprising. What is surprising is how many people aren't fooled by Hudaks false posturing. I think he is doing an excellent job highlighting the HST. However, the more he highlights it the more he has to come up with a solution. The easiest would be to call up the former finance minister.

The Harper Sales Tax was good enough for Flaherty when he was finance minister and the Federal Liberals were peddling such poison. But today its good medicine?

I read the comments on the papers and it is clear that people who are paying attention can see the forest through the trees.

I want to see Hudak go all the way and challenge the finance minister. To shame his Federal Conservative MPs.

Hudak is for the Harper Sales Tax. Just not at this time according to him, but it is changing, now he wants to see more items exempt and public consultations. That is a good move. I want the public to tell him to pick up the phone and talk to his Ontario triple trio of tax and spenders in the Harper government.

[madmax]

This is all politics for the PCs and why hasn't he talked to his friend Flaherty IF he is so much against it????

It looks like this is the next step...

Here is the link to the Sun Article

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009/11/19/11804716-sun.html

That basically says, the devil made me do it.

[Shady]

I'm finally glad that everyone's accepted the fact that taxes kill jobs.

[madmax]

I'm finally glad that everyone's accepted the fact that taxes kill jobs.

Did you sign the Petition to stop the Conservative Bribe?

[Jack Weber]

Well, this isn't surprising. What is surprising is how many people aren't fooled by Hudaks false posturing. I think he is doing an excellent job highlighting the HST. However, the more he highlights it the more he has to come up with a solution. The easiest would be to call up the former finance minister.

The Harper Sales Tax was good enough for Flaherty when he was finance minister and the Federal Liberals were peddling such poison. But today its good medicine?

I read the comments on the papers and it is clear that people who are paying attention can see the forest through the trees.

I want to see Hudak go all the way and challenge the finance minister. To shame his Federal Conservative MPs.

Hudak is for the Harper Sales Tax. Just not at this time according to him, but it is changing, now he wants to see more items exempt and public consultations. That is a good move. I want the public to tell him to pick up the phone and talk to his Ontario triple trio of tax and spenders in the Harper government.

Hudak's antics in the House were just silly.He feigns protest,walks out with his fellow MPP's,and then,does nothing but rightfully rip the McGuinty Gov't for the tax WITHOUT placing the blame where it really lies...With his federal benefactors in Ottawa.Andrea Horwath had it right by staying in the house,and saying afterword that if Hudak wants to really effect some change he needs to talk to his federal counterparts in Ottawa.Hudak is unfortunately my MPP.He's a Harris disciple.He backed Jim Flaharty in his bid for the PC leadership a few year ago.The same Jim Flaharty who thought jailing the homeless was a compassionate thing to do.He's also married to Deb Hutton,one of the Harris' backroom people.Hudak will do absolutely nothing!He will not ruffle the feathers of Slasher Jimmy or Steven Harper mainly because he believes this is a good idea,he's just not in the position of power to take advantage of it.

I watched the procedings from Queens Park this afternoon.The MPP from Nepean,Ms.McLeod,kept demanding to stop debate since the Grits won't hold public hearings.She's right about the public hearings,but her methods are typically cluelessly Con.Once her silliness was out of the way,Rosario Marchese stood up and basically ripped the federally Tories and the provincial Liberals equally.He threw a little towards the provincial Con's,as well.The fact that we are'nt having public hearings AND are being bribed with our own money suggest something is truly rotten about this.The provincial Libs are going to get roasted over this,and to a lesser extent,so will the provincial Tories.Their sham antics are fairly transparent.But this will have federal implications,as it relates to a possible federal election.It's clear Harper and his cronies are going to vote for this.It's also clear that the NDP and Layton won't.I suspect the Bloc won't vote for this either.That leaves the Iggster...He's going to be in the unenviable position of either propping up the Con's on a issue of increasing taxes,or,throwing his provincial cousins under the bus,voting it down,and,being the cause of a federal election.

If he votes for this tax,he can kiss any chance of him ever becoming PM good-bye.Mr Harper is going to pay a heavy price in Ontario for this,as well.In fact,if the same sentiment is happening in BC,I suspect we could have very strange looking House of Commons.Marchese said it best earlier this afternoon...This will basically act like a flat tax,with the middle class picking up most of the tab.It's also going to be a tax shift.It's going to take items that were taxed on business and shift it onto the individual consumer.Marchese said that the provincial Lib's actually believe that this will create 600,000 jobs!My guess is it won't come close to that number.

Edited November 25, 2009 by Jack Weber

[Topaz]

Knowing the Harper government, his plan was to have B.C. and Ontario, that is Liberal government get voted out in the next provincial elections and put in PC because of the voters would turn on ANY provincial government that agreed to it, even if they got Bils for doing it. Besides, the Feds needs their % for debt!!

[ToadBrother]

Knowing the Harper government, his plan was to have B.C. and Ontario, that is Liberal government get voted out in the next provincial elections and put in PC because of the voters would turn on ANY provincial government that agreed to it, even if they got Bils for doing it. Besides, the Feds needs their % for debt!!

For the umpteemth million time, the BC Liberals are, for all intents and purposes, the Conservative Party of BC. The BC Progressive Conservatives are a fringe party (though they have seen some growth in recent months). The BC Liberals and Federal Tories are completely interchangeable. The BC Liberals ceased to be a Liberal party in any meaningful sense when they booted Gordon Wilson out.

Edited November 25, 2009 by ToadBrother

[madmax]

Hudak's antics in the House were just silly.He feigns protest,walks out with his fellow MPP's,and then,does nothing but rightfully rip the McGuinty Gov't for the tax WITHOUT placing the blame where it really lies...With his federal benefactors in Ottawa.

Tim Hudaks Bad Week

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/silver-powers/tim-hudaks-bad-week/article1377158/

Edited November 26, 2009 by madmax

[Jack Weber]

Tim Hudaks Bad Week

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/blogs/silver-powers/tim-hudaks-bad-week/article1377158/

It's continuing as we speak...

The behaviour of the Con's is disgraceful.I'm watching the proceedings from Queens Park right now.The Tory benches are simply pounding on the tables and shouting "Hold Public Hearings!!!!".Both Bill Murdoch and Randy Hillier(surprise,surprise) have been named and banned from the session.Neither have left the House.They simply stay and keep shouting over the top of everyone.

The sick thing of all of this is that Hudak said he basically supported the HST 6 months ago.Now he,and his con minions,are trying to make political hay by feigning there is some afront to democracy.There is an afront to democracy here,but 6 months ago the Cons supported the tax measure...

We are now in about the 5th recess in the last 70 minutes....

[Jack Weber]

And now,after a point of order by an NDP member,the speaker has asked each of the party house leaders to meet in the speaker's office to try to resolve todays silliness....

This recess has lasted more than 20 minutes....

[madmax]

Hillier and Murdoch have called it a day. They did a great job of bringing attention to the HST and to the friendly position of the HST within the PCs and the CPC.

Not certain why they have given up so early.

[capricorn]

Not certain why they have given up so early.

Ooooohhhhh, madmax, that is an observation pregnant with theories and suppositions.

[Jack Weber]

Hillier and Murdoch have called it a day. They did a great job of bringing attention to the HST and to the friendly position of the HST within the PCs and the CPC.

Not certain why they have given up so early.

Not shocking that two of the dizziest Con's at Queens Park pull an idiotic stunt,and pull the curtain back for al to see on the Con con job,as it relates to the HST...

I hate to say it,but McGuinty basically tore Hudak a new one during question period today.Hudak is a Harrisite lacky who does'nt have a leg to stand on on this subject.

One of the funniest things that I saw today was when Sandra Pupatello shouted out to Ms.MacLeod(the loudmouth member from Nepean),"Hillier's supassed you now!".Refering to both Hillier's and MacLeod's idiotic antics in the House...

Edited December 3, 2009 by Jack Weber

[madmax]

Ooooohhhhh, madmax, that is an observation pregnant with theories and suppositions.

LOL, You got me.

[madmax]

Not shocking that two of the dizziest Con's at Queens Park pull an idiotic stunt,and pull the curtain back for al to see on the Con con job,as it relates to the HST...

I like Murdoch and I am not fond of Hillier, I do like his populist approach on various issues. These two are willing to speak out against their party if necessary, so it doesn't surprise me that these are the two who took up the call. They'd be the first to call their party hypocrits the moment the PCs implemented the HST, which is current PC policy.

I hate to say it,but McGuinty basically tore Hudak a new one during question period today.Hudak is a Harrisite lacky who does'nt have a leg to stand on on this subject.

I hate to believe that McGuinty can out point anyone in QP.

One of the funniest things that I saw today was when Sandra Pupatello shouted out to Ms.MacLeod(the loudmouth member from Nepean),"Hillier's supassed you now!".Refering to both Hillier's and MacLeod's idiotic antics in the House...

Unfortuneately, Pupatello has been one of the most useless Ministers in Cabinet. She is only good for a photo op. So it doesn't surprise me she engages in partisan mud slinging as she is unqualified to do her own job.

I don't know MacLeod, but I know Pupatello.

Good riddence to her the sooner the better. Unfortuneately her popularity surpasses her competence.

Edited December 3, 2009 by madmax

[madmax]

Today that PC's walked out, in protest against the HST. The PC leader is not against the tax

In this case, words speak louder then actions. Here is Hudaks FIRST DAY on the JOB.

The wrong foot

Tim Hudak has staked his reputation on getting Dalton McGuinty to backdown on the harmonized sales tax.

We're going to put 100 per cent of our energies into stopping this tax in the first place, Hudak promised upon winning the leadership. I'm not going to give any quarter to Dalton McGuinty on this.

Obviously, if Tim is giving 100 per cent to stopping the HST, he would ask his first question about the HST.

Nope.

Or his second.

Nope.

Or his third.

Um, no.

Actually, no Conservative mentioned the HST in the entire Question Period, although the NDP devoted two separate questions to the issue, including their first leaders question.

By ignoring an issue that was supposed to be Tims singular concern only reinforces the growing impression that he is not serious in his opposition to the HST, but cynically stoking populist backlash with no intention of reversing the tax harmonization in government.

Edited December 4, 2009 by madmax

[Wilber]

Now that both the federal Conservatives and Liberals have voted in favour of this tax, perhaps a change of the topics name is in order.

[madmax]

Now that both the federal Conservatives and Liberals have voted in favour of this tax, perhaps a change of the topics name is in order.

Interesting you suggest that.

The HST was the BST. Of course the BST was reversed by new coming NDP Premier Romanov. The Chretian era created a package deal for the atlantic provinces and thus the HST.

However, this particular brand of HST has Harpers stamp of approval. A special side deal with the BQ secured the HST Federal support. Quebec gets to keep the HST monies and send in the difference to the feds. No other Province will "Harmonize" in this fashion. To get this gift from the Conservatives, the BQ had to support the Conservative HST proposal upon Ontario and BC. The Conservative $4.3 Billion in Ontario puts Harpers stamp on this.

While I believe the thread both here and in the Federal Forum are long of tooth, I think the Provincial title is still valid.

In the meantime, what I see happening is that the HST is actually picking up steam in the publics eye, while many of us have moved on.

I think its had its fair share of discussion on MLW, but I will continue to update on any new developments both Federal and Provincial. It seems the public is just starting to get aware of the deal and who is behind it. Should be fun to watch the spin doctors come out and work an audience that is 75% opposed in Ontario and 80% opposed in BC.

I don't know how to bring the Federal Liberals into the thread title to make it more valid.

Guilt by association is about it and I don't think the Federal Liberals have any appeal among the voting public. Individual LPC MPs will be circling the wagons come voting time.