Justice Served!

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Right....which is why he is going on trial in the U.S.! Why the heck would the U.S.A. hand him over to us when they know damn well Canada's ridiculous laws will let him walk away which will inspire the terrorist's even more ...they (terrorist's) already think Canada is a joke cause they know there is no real threat to them here. Omar was caught by American's troops, killed and American Medic of all things, caught fighting along side the hated enemy.He is not our problem, he left Canada to go fight a foreign country which is our Ally in Nato! He is completely an American problem, his right's as a Canadian no longer are valid when he left Canada to be a terrorist.

Canada owes this garbage nothing! he is no longer our concern, let the Americans put him on trial and if found guilty hang or shoot the filth...problem solved, cased closed...i don t see the problem. Here is a good article more or less describing how passive and naive Canadians are against terrorism.

http://www.nationalpost.com/related/links/story.html?id=2174994

I am happy to see him stand trial. I believe we should have got our mitts on him and tried him ourselves some time ago.

[wulf42]

I am happy to see him stand trial. I believe we should have got our mitts on him and tried him ourselves some time ago.

I am all for a trial...the disagreement we have is who should put him on trial! In my eyes he killed an American so that seems fitting the Americans have him.There is no difference if one of us were to go down to the U.S.A and were to get in trouble down there...we would answer to the American's for it and face their justice system and so is the case for Omar.

Edited November 18, 2009 by wulf42

[noahbody]

Can you not see that THEY have been victorious in that effort and that with all the might of our society we have FAILED to prevent that change!

This person was never tried in a court of law. This person as a citizen of this nation has had that right since birth. This citizen is innocent until proven guilty.

Omar Khadr isn't a member of our society. He's Al Qaeda. Why we're failing is that we have not adapted our laws to get "Canadians" who not only support, but participate in terrorism, out of the country.

I for one believe him to be guilty, but that has not been proven to me

He might not be found guilty of murder, but there's no doubt he is guilty of other charges against him. After he serves time, should he be allowed to reenter society? Sure. But the society that he came from; not Canadian society.

[wulf42]

Omar Khadr isn't a member of our society. He's Al Qaeda. Why we're failing is that we have not adapted our laws to get "Canadians" who not only support, but participate in terrorism, out of the country.

Well said!...He is not a Canadian, he is the enemy pure and simple.

[GostHacked]

Well, he should be tried in court. But I do beleive he should get to have a trial in NYC just like KSM and his cohorts. If the federal courts in the US are good enough to try KSM (you know the guy who claims to have organized the terror attacks on 911 killing close to 3000 people in the twin towers) it should be good enough to try Kadr.

I really have a hard time believing most of you want to uphold our laws and standards by doing away with a trial and just keeping him in jail indefinately. Or assuming he is guilty before a trial happens. This is why the terrorists have won. We don't live up to our own standards anymore. We don't seem to even hold ourselved to those standards.

It's not the terrorists that will ruin your life, it is government that bends to all this crap and we the citizes of the right,

Kill our civilians and you get a freakin show trial in NYC.

Kill one of our troops and you never see the light of day again.

Something is seriouly %#(*!^%)#(*^ wrong here.

[Gabriel]

Who cares if they did mistreat him? He is a friggin terrorist........the only people in the world that care what happens to this animals is the loonie lefties and other terrorist's...he should have been shot dead when they caught him.

Omar hasn't been mistreated. The claims that he's been mistreated/tortured are just lies spread by his defense lawyers and extremist left-wing "human rights" groups. He's been treated entirely too well! He should've been shot on the battlefield, but perhaps the troops felt the might be able to extract some intelligence from him.

[wulf42]

Kill our civilians and you get a freakin show trial in NYC.

Kill one of our troops and you never see the light of day again.

Something is seriouly %#(*!^%)#(*^ wrong here.

I agree on this point! they should all face Miltary Tribunal....this Civilian trial will make OJ's trial like like a joke.

Edited November 18, 2009 by wulf42

[Keepitsimple]

Well, he should be tried in court. But I do beleive he should get to have a trial in NYC just like KSM and his cohorts. If the federal courts in the US are good enough to try KSM (you know the guy who claims to have organized the terror attacks on 911 killing close to 3000 people in the twin towers) it should be good enough to try Kadr.

There's reasonable logic in trying those who killed soldiers on a battlefield in a Military court.....and trying those who killed civilians in the US in a civilian court.

[GostHacked]

There's reasonable logic in trying those who killed soldiers on a battlefield in a Military court.....and trying those who killed civilians in the US in a civilian court.

KSM et al, also hit the Pentagon which is a military installation, correct me if I am wrong, but a few military personelle were killed in that attack. I'd classify them as soldiers. Why not go with that approach and use the attack on the Pentagon to try KSM in a military court? Was KSM declared an illegal enemy combatant? If so, why does KSM get a day in US federal court as opposed to Kadr who's actions are still in question if he actually killed a US soldier.

[M.Dancer]

KSM et al, also hit the Pentagon which is a military installation, correct me if I am wrong, but a few military personelle were killed in that attack.

But it wasn't a battlefield nor was it a military attack. It was a hijacked domestic passenger plane flown into a building.

[M.Dancer]

Was KSM declared an illegal enemy combatant?

No he was not. He wasn't captured on a battlefield he was captured in a Pakistani city.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

9/11 was an act of terrorism, pure and simple. It achieved its goal, our society has been changed and our security has been brought into question.

We fell into the trap that was laid for us and have entered into a phase of warfare not merely misunderstood, but instead misdirected. The only way to fight terrorism is to destroy the terrorists. Conducting open warfare upon entire nations will not get rid of terrorism. Destroying the perpetrators will.

The trap that was laid before us was an old one, which pits one religion after another. Its an us or them scenario. In todays global society that is a problem for us, not for them. It pits neighbor against neighbor in our society, but not in theirs. What has really happened is that our society has been disrupted but not theirs. They have succeeded.

In order for us to prevail we would have had to take a different path, and we have not done so. The option is no longer available. In short we have lost the battle. Not here within our own shores you understand, but the world has changed on foreign soil. No longer is the USA the dominant player that it was. This war on terror has been part of the problem that has begun to cripple their society. Far too much money has been spent for far too little gain and the net benefit to citizens is extremely minimal. The goal of the original act was to remove the USA from the position of power it once had. It was a political statement that said "we can do what we want, in spite of what you say".

As I have said we lost that battle, yet the war continues. We are fighting it on the wrong premise and until we wake up and see the reality of the situation for what it is we will continue to fight to no advantage or avail. This is a fight about power and ideology, religion and morality. It is not one that can be won outside of our own nations, nor inside theirs. The only way to win this war is to step away from it and dictate terms of resolution. Those terms must be made from a position of political power and influence. It means sacrifice and deprivation are the tools of statecraft that will work as a functional resolution.

[PocketRocket]

Hey PocketRocket,

G'day to you, Gabe.

I really have no interest in scouring the CBC and other Canada websites for the evidence of this case. I must say, though, if you have reservations about this young terrorist's guilt then you've got problem. In my view, the case is closed by way of him simply living among the enemy and being born into a terrorist family. You're being dishonest (or wilfully ignorant, or ridiculously naive) in your attempts to look for possibilities that Omar might not be guilty of supporting our enemies in their murders and attacks of coalition soldiers. Again, in all seriousness, do you think this kid was in Afghanistan on some sort of nature retreat? What makes you think it was against his will - he's been a terrorist since he was conceived - look at his family!

Okay. You don't want to show me any evidence, but will call me "willfully ignorant". Understood.

Yet when I provide some evidence, it's blown off as "defense team lies", or, in the case of the re-written report, simply ignored.

So the remaining argument is that he MUST be a terrorist because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Gabe, my interest in this thread is not so much Khadr's guilt or innocence, but rather the danger of making assumptions of guilt before all the evidence is in. In this thread I am playing devil's advocate simply because when my participation in this thread began, virtually every post had been calling for Khadr's head.

Makes for a boring debate when there are no dissenting opinions, don't you think???

But this simple fact remains, that a couple of the points of argument I brought up remained completely unaddressed, or were simply glossed-over with bluster that "He's scum", or "He's a terrorist from a family of terrorists" or some such. You are not the only one doing this, you're simply the only poster here who has repeatedly engaged with me directly.

As I said repeatedly, if he is found guilty, I'll be the first to cheer when the axe falls.

lastly, with respect to your attempts to rewrite and misrepresent history, that is a subject I absolutely have no interest in engaging you with online. At least not at this time. To somehow suggest that the Middle East is a product of Western influence is absurd. It is as anti-Western as you can get. Western colonialism did very little (arguably nothing at all) to influence the current state of Middle Eastern culture (repressive, racism, hate-filled, backward, and barbaric). The Middle East would have been much better off today had there been a much stronger integration of Western modernity into the prevailing culture during the West's colonization of the area, i.e. like Algeria or India. What we're seeing today in the Middle East with respect to backwards culture (I'm not afraid to call it like it is!) is entirely a product of what's been there for a very long time. I can assure you that you've got a lot to learn about Middle Eastern history if you're one of those folks that somehow thinks the West is to blame for the ME's current state of affairs. Like I said, the West didn't engage the ME *nearly* enough.

Re-writing??? I simply posted historical points, with some tongue-in-cheek comment added.

Seeing as you don't want to engage on the subject online, you seem to be doing just that.

To reply to this, I'll simply say that if you keep destroying homes and infrastructures, and leave people in barbaric conditions, do you expect less than barbaric behavior???

[bush_cheney2004]

9/11 was an act of terrorism, pure and simple. It achieved its goal, our society has been changed and our security has been brought into question.

True, but this is more perception than reality. The potential threat remains largely unchanged and consistent with the course previous to "9/11", which was just one high profile incident on a long continuum.

We fell into the trap that was laid for us and have entered into a phase of warfare not merely misunderstood, but instead misdirected. The only way to fight terrorism is to destroy the terrorists. Conducting open warfare upon entire nations will not get rid of terrorism. Destroying the perpetrators will.

Partially true....current policies strive to leverage advantage and gains in the face of the perceived and real threats (that have long existed). "Never waste a good crisis" - H. Clinton (from the earlier Machiavelli)

The trap that was laid before us was an old one, which pits one religion after another. Its an us or them scenario. In todays global society that is a problem for us, not for them. It pits neighbor against neighbor in our society, but not in theirs. What has really happened is that our society has been disrupted but not theirs. They have succeeded.

Then you are defeated....others feel differently.

In order for us to prevail we would have had to take a different path, and we have not done so. The option is no longer available. In short we have lost the battle. Not here within our own shores you understand, but the world has changed on foreign soil. No longer is the USA the dominant player that it was. This war on terror has been part of the problem that has begun to cripple their society.

US "society" is not crippled....if you mean fiscal madness...that existed long before the so called WoT.

Far too much money has been spent for far too little gain and the net benefit to citizens is extremely minimal. The goal of the original act was to remove the USA from the position of power it once had. It was a political statement that said "we can do what we want, in spite of what you say".

Much money was spent on the Cold War as well.....America and allies prevailed.

As I have said we lost that battle, yet the war continues. We are fighting it on the wrong premise and until we wake up and see the reality of the situation for what it is we will continue to fight to no advantage or avail. This is a fight about power and ideology, religion and morality. It is not one that can be won outside of our own nations, nor inside theirs. The only way to win this war is to step away from it and dictate terms of resolution. Those terms must be made from a position of political power and influence. It means sacrifice and deprivation are the tools of statecraft that will work as a functional resolution.

The war is not over....increase your time horizon....then America will make a movie for you to watch in Canada.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

True, but this is more perception than reality. The potential threat remains largely unchanged and consistent with the course previous to "9/11", which was just one high profile incident on a long continuum.

Partially true....current policies strive to leverage advantage and gains in the face of the perceived and real threats (that have long existed). "Never waste a good crisis" - H. Clinton (from the earlier Machiavelli)

Then you are defeated....others feel differently.

US "society" is not crippled....if you mean fiscal madness...that existed long before the so called WoT.

Much money was spent on the Cold War as well.....America and allies prevailed.

The war is not over....increase your time horizon....then America will make a movie for you to watch in Canada.

Its all over but for the crying. Keep dreaming if you think you either can or have avoided the trap set for you. The fat lady is warming up in the wings. The US Dollar is compromised, it will soon cease to be the benchmark it once was. People and nations are buying gold. The Canadian dollar is above 94 cents, for no other reason than the weakness of the greenback. Real estate bubble number two is about to be realized, that is the commercial end of things, and if you thought residential demise was a big thing wait and see how this one plays out. It will have to trigger another round of bailouts by the US government just to keep the banks afloat. Meanwhile the price of oil will go through the roof because of the soon to be falling US dollar, that will trigger a forced sale of US bonds and T-Bills held by foreign interests which will create a shortage of US dollars that the government will be forced to print just to cover the debt. That little scenario will trigger the ultimate collapse of the US economy. It will also force the emergence of a new resource based economy and stop the growth in China in its tracks. The new world order is about to be realized in a few short and painful years.

[bush_cheney2004]

Its all over but for the crying. Keep dreaming if you think you either can or have avoided the trap set for you. The fat lady is warming up in the wings. The US Dollar is compromised, it will soon cease to be the benchmark it once was. People and nations are buying gold. The Canadian dollar is above 94 cents, for no other reason than the weakness of the greenback.

This is not new....was it "over" in 1929 as well. Gold is nowhere near it's inflation adjust high from about 1980. By your own admission, your economic fate is tied to the American economy....a "trap" Canada invented by itself out of necessity.

Real estate bubble number two is about to be realized, that is the commercial end of things, and if you thought residential demise was a big thing wait and see how this one plays out. It will have to trigger another round of bailouts by the US government just to keep the banks afloat.

Been there...done that. Japanese banks lost their ass back in the 80's on commercial real estate. "We" survived.

Meanwhile the price of oil will go through the roof because of the soon to be falling US dollar, that will trigger a forced sale of US bonds and T-Bills held by foreign interests which will create a shortage of US dollars that the government will be forced to print just to cover the debt. That little scenario will trigger the ultimate collapse of the US economy. It will also force the emergence of a new resource based economy and stop the growth in China in its tracks. The new world order is about to be realized in a few short and painful years.

OK....I thought you were at least half serious....not another NWO loon. The US economy has "collapsed" several times, only to emerge with renewed vigor on the other end. While politically unpopular, the US has a large untapped tax revenue capacity, and has a lower debt/GDP ratio than some other nations. But for some reason it's only gloom and doom for the USA.

What does any of this have to do with using Omar for Predator practice?

Edited November 18, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[waldo]

Kill our civilians and you get a freakin show trial in NYC.

Kill one of our troops and you never see the light of day again.

Something is seriouly %#(*!^%)#(*^ wrong here.

I agree on this point! they should all face Miltary Tribunal....this Civilian trial will make OJ's trial like like a joke.

The transfer to Federal Court reflects the insurmountable evidence available to successfully prosecute those transferred... there's a growing consensus that those remaining in the military tribunal system are those where evidence against them is lacking, unavailable or suspect.

The show in the "Federal show trials" will be used as a most purposeful opinion reinforcement/shaping tool by the Obama admin. The downside to the "show trials", of course, is that it affords the accused an opportunity to highlight their principle motivations. By his own account, KSM was motivated by his vehement disagreement with U.S. foreign policy favouring Israel, particularly the U.S. support for Israel over Palestine... apparently... foreign policy decisions have consequences - go figure.

[wulf42]

As I said repeatedly, if he is found guilty, I'll be the first to cheer when the axe falls.

The major difference in this thread is on who should try him, my personal thought on this is the Americans should have popped him on the battlefield saving everyone the bother but since we are past that i believe the U.S. is the one that has every right to put him on trial and carry out any sentence they see fit!After all it was their Soldier he killed...how would we feel in Canada if the situation was reversed

we catch an American Taliban after he just killed one of our Soldiers...we going to hand him over? probably not even though for justice sake we would be better off if we did...knowing how weak our Justice system is.

Edited November 18, 2009 by wulf42

[Gabriel]

G'day to you, Gabe.

Okay. You don't want to show me any evidence, but will call me "willfully ignorant". Understood.

Yet when I provide some evidence, it's blown off as "defense team lies", or, in the case of the re-written report, simply ignored.

So the remaining argument is that he MUST be a terrorist because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Gabe, my interest in this thread is not so much Khadr's guilt or innocence, but rather the danger of making assumptions of guilt before all the evidence is in. In this thread I am playing devil's advocate simply because when my participation in this thread began, virtually every post had been calling for Khadr's head.

Makes for a boring debate when there are no dissenting opinions, don't you think???

But this simple fact remains, that a couple of the points of argument I brought up remained completely unaddressed, or were simply glossed-over with bluster that "He's scum", or "He's a terrorist from a family of terrorists" or some such. You are not the only one doing this, you're simply the only poster here who has repeatedly engaged with me directly.

As I said repeatedly, if he is found guilty, I'll be the first to cheer when the axe falls.

Re-writing??? I simply posted historical points, with some tongue-in-cheek comment added.

Seeing as you don't want to engage on the subject online, you seem to be doing just that.

To reply to this, I'll simply say that if you keep destroying homes and infrastructures, and leave people in barbaric conditions, do you expect less than barbaric behavior???

I know you're playing devil's advocate. That's why I don't want to continue the exchange. I'm not here to debate for fun. I'm here to get an idea of how other interested Canadian feel about various political issues. I know that you honestly recognize that Omar Khadr is a terrorist and should be punished. He will have his day in court, and I am confident that justice will be served and he will be given a heavy sentence (hopefully life imprisonment, although execution would be better). Again, in all seriousness, in my view he was guilty as soon as he was picked up in Aghanistan. A young guy, a Muslim, from a terrorist family, living in Afghanistan among terrorists IN CONFLICT. Case closed! He wasn't there on a summer camp adventure learning how make campfires. Beyond that, there are mountains of evidence to seal the deal.

Anyways cheers.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

This is not new....was it "over" in 1929 as well. Gold is nowhere near it's inflation adjust high from about 1980. By your own admission, your economic fate is tied to the American economy....a "trap" Canada invented by itself out of necessity.

Was not '29 painful enough, were the lessons not learned? Yes Canada is tied to the USA, I have never said otherwise a fact that does not impress me with the lack of vision in my own nation. 1929 changed everything and brought about the conditions which permeated the world and caused the second world war. Can you not see us headed down that path once more as if nothing happened between then and now?

Been there...done that. Japanese banks lost their ass back in the 80's on commercial real estate. "We" survived.

You were not heavily invested in their banking were you? Aside from that your nation and its lenders did not seem to read the writing on the wall of the Japanese collapse given that what caused it was exactly what has put your financial industry on its ears, a real estate bubble. Billions of dollars of home owner equity disappeared overnight with your burst bubble, and that was leveraged six ways from Sunday. The problems you now face are dire indeed and that equity has been lost to your citizens and migrated into bankers or investors hands. The reality is that the net worth of your citizens has taken a hit and that effects everything. The next hit is commercial and that will cost more jobs and more equity before it is resolved.

OK....I thought you were at least half serious....not another NWO loon. The US economy has "collapsed" several times, only to emerge with renewed vigor on the other end. While politically unpopular, the US has a large untapped tax revenue capacity, and has a lower debt/GDP ratio than some other nations. But for some reason it's only gloom and doom for the USA.

The "new World Order" was a phrase coined by an American, and misapplied at that. The political map is changing and the empire is falling. slowly crumbling before your eyes. Employment numbers suck, GDP is mostly retail and debt and deficit grow daily. These things are far different from when America was the manufacturing king with rising employment increasing GDP and international trade surpluses. This is different indeed.

What does any of this have to do with using Omar for Predator practice?

Nothing other than the USA no longer owns the moral high ground either.

[bush_cheney2004]

Was not '29 painful enough, were the lessons not learned? Yes Canada is tied to the USA, I have never said otherwise a fact that does not impress me with the lack of vision in my own nation. 1929 changed everything and brought about the conditions which permeated the world and caused the second world war. Can you not see us headed down that path once more as if nothing happened between then and now?

You might want to investigate the impact of the Treaty of Versailles....

...The problems you now face are dire indeed and that equity has been lost to your citizens and migrated into bankers or investors hands. The reality is that the net worth of your citizens has taken a hit and that effects everything. The next hit is commercial and that will cost more jobs and more equity before it is resolved.

You are missing the entire point....dire does not equal doom. Japan is still stumbling but life there is not so bad, eh?

The "new World Order" was a phrase coined by an American, and misapplied at that. The political map is changing and the empire is falling. slowly crumbling before your eyes. Employment numbers suck, GDP is mostly retail and debt and deficit grow daily. These things are far different from when America was the manufacturing king with rising employment increasing GDP and international trade surpluses. This is different indeed.

Welcome back to the 1970's...."we" survived far worse and disco music too.

Nothing other than the USA no longer owns the moral high ground either.

The US never did, and doesn't have to live up to your expectations. Your "empire" collapsed a long time ago. How does it feel to live in a "collapsed" empire? Not too bad...right? So there is not much down side after all.....even Omar knows a good thing when he sees it.

Edited November 19, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[Jerry J. Fortin]

You might want to investigate the impact of the Treaty of Versailles....

You are missing the entire point....dire does not equal doom. Japan is still stumbling but life there is not so bad, eh?

Welcome back to the 1970's...."we" survived far worse and disco music too.

The US never did, and doesn't have to live up to your expectations. Your "empire" collapsed a long time ago. How does it feel to live in a "collapsed" empire? Not too bad...right? So there is not much down side after all.....even Omar knows a good thing when he sees it.

Dude you slay me! I really enjoy your wit and your true patriotism. I believe you are a great citizen for your country.

[PocketRocket]

I know you're playing devil's advocate. That's why I don't want to continue the exchange. I'm not here to debate for fun.

Partly for fun, partly for the reasons you give, but also because I do believe in at least one thing I have posted repeatedly in this and other threads, and that's not to pre-judge.

I'm here to get an idea of how other interested Canadian feel about various political issues. I know that you honestly recognize that Omar Khadr is a terrorist and should be punished.

I believe what I said was "probably guilty", but this still leaves room for doubt. As previously stated we here do not have all the facts. And that is all I've been saying in this thread. Probably guilty. Highly likely. Not completely certain, though. For this reason too, his trial will be important. One way or the other, it will dispel uncertainty.

He will have his day in court, and I am confident that justice will be served and he will be given a heavy sentence (hopefully life imprisonment, although execution would be better).

I fully agree that justice should be served, and hope it truly will be in this case. However, I recognize that I do not have the answer to whether or not he is guilty, no matter how much I may suspect he is. For this reason, I hope the trial uncovers all the facts, and the verdict is based on the truth of the matter, whatever truths may be revealed.

Again, in all seriousness, in my view he was guilty as soon as he was picked up in Aghanistan.

Gabe, with that one single line you just put us in total agreement. "In your view".

Well done. Your opinion.

That wasn't so difficult now, was it???

:D

A young guy, a Muslim, from a terrorist family, living in Afghanistan among terrorists IN CONFLICT. Case closed! He wasn't there on a summer camp adventure learning how make campfires. Beyond that, there are mountains of evidence to seal the deal.

You like that "summer camp" phrase, don't you??? Must've used it at LEAST 3 times to date.

Good line. Gave me chuckles a couple times.

And yes, there are mountains of evidence, much of which I've not seen yet, but that's cool. We seem to have come to an accord.

Anyways cheers.

Back atcha, friend.

[Peter F]

Was KSM declared an illegal enemy combatant? If so, why does KSM get a day in US federal court as opposed to Kadr who's actions are still in question if he actually killed a US soldier.

KSM had a Combat Status Review tribunal CSRT Hearing.

I assume he was declared a combatant as a result of the hearing since he was charged and up for trial at the Military Commissions in Guatanamo, Where the charge sheet says he is (along with others ):"persons subject to trial by military commission as alien unlawful enemy combatants"charges

Then, charges were dropped and other charges laid in the Federal courts. That being so his status as a combatant, illegal combatant or not a combatant at all have no bearing.

[Peter F]

Additional to the above:

Since he confessed to everything anyone could possibly think of - willingly and openly - in his CSRT hearing,CSRT Hearing it's an open and shut case in a federal court without the stigma of Kangaroo attached to the now inevitable guilty verdict.

Of course Bush could have done the very same thing as Obama (move the trial from the commissions to the courts) but didn't.

I am guessing that Bush et al were aiming to achieve some sort of legitimacy by having KSM tried in Guatanamo. I am guessing that Obama et al are hoping to avoid legitimacy attaching to the Guatanamo commissions...or maybe something else entirely different -" Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men?"

edit to add: Cheney knows! which would explain the recent kerfuffle from some about it being a bad idea to have the trial in a New York courtroom rather than in Guatanamo

Edited November 20, 2009 by Peter F