The Ends of Religious Tolerance

[ToadBrother]

Julianna is not a creature. She is human with some severe challenges. You are going to lose your humanity once you start refering to people in Julianna's predicament as creatures.

Please stop.

He won't. Like I said, he's a monster.

[Guest American Woman]

Calling someone a "creature" because of the way they look is loathsome. Calling someone a "monster" because you don't much like them or their views isn't a whole lot better, is it?

It would be nice if it all stopped. But it won't. And this is the world Juliana has to thrive in.

[M.Dancer]

The one place where advanced medical techniques (not just drug therapies but actual techniques) has been substantial reductions in infant mortality. This actually began some time before the advent of the modern drug industry, and has more to do with better understanding of germs and of the necessity of cleanliness.

You are of course correct. My daughter, born premature tipping the scales at 1lbs 15oz is one such example.

Hers of course is a shining example of our evolution...into problem solving spaient beings...

[Guest TrueMetis]

If we want to eliminate these types of defects we have to options 1) don't let people who's children could end up like this mate, but I'm pretty sure that's a violation of human rights not an option, ever. 2) Germline Gene therapy, for those not familar with it It's basically eliminating genetic defects in a fertilized egg before it is implanted. It is better than conventional Gene therapy because it effects all cells in a persons body and will be passed on to that persons decendants. On the flip side, at this point are understanding of genetics is not good enough to fully understand how our tampering will effect the person. It could result in a defect worse than the one that was cured so at this point it is not an option. Though we are using it in some animals, like cows to produce more milk. It has incredible potential once we perfect it.

[lictor616]

From all I've seen and read, minus your sensationalistic posts, Juliana Wetmore's "defects" are physical, and can be fixed, at least to a degree. I've known someone with Treacher Collins Syndrome, and like Juliana, it was a physical defect that required surgery, but she was fully capable of contributing to society and leading a meaningful life. Her biggest barrier, of course, is when judgmental assholes make deliberately rude comments about what she looks like, as if she is obligated to meet their standard of physical attraction.

wait a minute... just so we're clear... are you actually claiming that Julianna's conditions is "fixable"?

There are different degrees of treacher collins, some are so minor as to be even undetectable to the human eye. Julianna's condition is not at all mild... the doctors caring for her were all quoted saying that it was the worst case they'd ever seen, and that Julianna has no hope of ever being able to speak or breathe normally (she lacks the facial structure to do it.

And no amount of reconstructive surgery will make her look like anything but a mangled flesh colored Elmo/squid like creature.

Her biggest barrier is struggling to breathe (she's up to her second tracheotomy) and developping resistance to anti-biotics and pain killers... (she's apparently immune to pill pain killers and has to be given what some call "heroic doses" of powerful painkillers INTRAVENOUSLY).

I doubt that everyday people's reaction are as important. But they surely lower the life quality of what is doubtlessly already a living hell.

anyone who disputes these facts is simply willfully blind... and cruel for it.

Edited October 28, 2009 by lictor616

[lictor616]

You are of course correct. My daughter, born premature tipping the scales at 1lbs 15oz is one such example.

Hers of course is a shining example of our evolution...into problem solving spaient beings...

most of these wondrous drugs though have some pretty harsh side effects...

http://www.news-medical.net/news/2008/09/18/41549.aspx

Edited October 28, 2009 by lictor616

[Melanie_]

Interesting that you are suggesting I am cruel, when you had this to say...

creatures such as the irredeemably defective Julianna.

If you read my post clearly, I said her condition can be fixed, to a degree; she has had many surgeries, and will likely have many more. She's not ever going to look like the typical person walking down the street, or be free from some sort of medical interventions. That doesn't mean she should just be done away with. You aren't there, you aren't part of her life, and you can't judge whether or not it is a life worth living. You want to play god, and decide who is worthy of life and who isn't; I don't think you are qualified to make that decision - for her, or for anyone else.

[lictor616]

Interesting that you are suggesting I am cruel, when you had this to say...

If you read my post clearly, I said her condition can be fixed, to a degree; she has had many surgeries, and will likely have many more. She's not ever going to look like the typical person walking down the street, or be free from some sort of medical interventions. That doesn't mean she should just be done away with. You aren't there, you aren't part of her life, and you can't judge whether or not it is a life worth living. You want to play god, and decide who is worthy of life and who isn't; I don't think you are qualified to make that decision - for her, or for anyone else.

to a degree what degree is that?

will she be able to eat? no...

speak? no

have any semblance of a normal visage, and a consequent basis for semi normal human interactions... no.. not by a long shot

will she ever be able to live unassisted? no

then really what ARE YOU fixing?

god doesn't exist... and deploring the fact that people like Julianna wetmore exist.. isn't playing god...

To check the birth of such monstrously deformed offspring as Julianna, is what is sane, rational and compassionate...

preserving the hellish life of creatures like Julianna: is much more like playing god... and cheating nature to fulfill some personal problems.

you're the one playing god here... actually playing satan by the looks of it.

[Guest American Woman]

preserving the hellish life of creatures like Julianna.....

She's a person, not a "creature." She has deformities, but that doesn't make her any less human. I don't understand why you can't refer to her as what she is -- a child.

[Guest TrueMetis]

She's a person, not a "creature." She has deformities, but that doesn't make her any less human. I don't understand why you can't refer to her as what she is -- a child.

Maybe becuase he doesn't want to admit that the difference between him and her amounts to a spelling mistake in her genetic code. Had a few of Agrus's genes mutated it would be him in that position.

[lictor616]

She's a person, not a "creature." She has deformities, but that doesn't make her any less human. I don't understand why you can't refer to her as what she is -- a child.

calling someone a creature doesn't automatically imply "inhumanity"... have you ever read anything from before 1990?

[Guest American Woman]

If you read my post clearly, I said her condition can be fixed, to a degree; she has had many surgeries, and will likely have many more. She's not ever going to look like the typical person walking down the street, or be free from some sort of medical interventions. That doesn't mean she should just be done away with. You aren't there, you aren't part of her life, and you can't judge whether or not it is a life worth living. You want to play god, and decide who is worthy of life and who isn't; I don't think you are qualified to make that decision - for her, or for anyone else.

I'm curious. If you could wake up in the morning looking like her, with all of her limitations, with all of her pain, with her future surgeries, with all the uncertainties the future holds for her, along with all the certainties that it holds .... or you could chose not to wake up ... which would you choose? I know what I would chose and I think I can safely say I don't know anyone who would chose any differently.

[Guest American Woman]

calling someone a creature doesn't automatically imply "inhumanity"... have you ever read anything from before 1990?

No. I haven't. I spent my entire life prior to 1990 without reading a thing.

She's a child. Why not refer to her as such?

[lictor616]

I'm curious. If you could wake up in the morning looking like her, with all of her limitations, with all of her pain, with her future surgeries, with all the uncertainties the future holds for her, along with all the certainties that it holds .... or you could chose not to wake up ... which would you choose? I know what I would chose and I think I can safely say I don't know anyone who would chose any differently.

I can't imagine someone choosing different...

lets keep things in perspective... its the people who are artificially preserving Julianna's situation (so impossible to empathize with) who are the real monsters..., and who ARE playing god.

not the ones who admit that it would have been far far better had julianna wetmore never been born.

[lictor616]

No. I haven't. I spent my entire life prior to 1990 without reading a thing.

She's a child. Why not refer to her as such?

correction: a monstrously deformed agonizing wreck of a child. and that, is a crucial stipulation.

[M.Dancer]

Typical Feces toting lictor....utters something repugnat then trys to shuck and jive his way around it.

[Melanie_]

Lictor, you've made it clear that you would rather be dead than live her life. But apparently she wouldn't, and her parents are committed to keeping her alive. They are giving her as normal a life as possible - admittedly difficult, but it is her life, the only one she gets, and she is living it. Neither one of us really has the power to play god or satan in this scenario, but I support her right to choose to live as fully as she is capable.

This brings us back to the original topic, the right to choose. Lictor is advocating mandatory abortions of fetuses that don't match a certain criteria, and disputes Juliana's parents' right to choose whether to terminate a pregnancy or not. We've debated prenatal screening in several previous threads, but again, for me it boils down to making an informed choice, which is what her parents did.

[Black Dog]

lets keep things in perspective... its the people who are artificially preserving Julianna's situation (so impossible to empathize with) who are the real monsters..., and who ARE playing god.

not the ones who admit that it would have been far far better had julianna wetmore never been born.

I have a damn sight more sympathy for people born into appalling circumstances than people who choose to be irredeemable assholes. Personally, I know who'd I'd rather see eat a bullet.

[Guest TrueMetis]

I'm curious. If you could wake up in the morning looking like her, with all of her limitations, with all of her pain, with her future surgeries, with all the uncertainties the future holds for her, along with all the certainties that it holds .... or you could chose not to wake up ... which would you choose? I know what I would chose and I think I can safely say I don't know anyone who would chose any differently.

Right here, death is the cowards way out.

[lictor616]

Lictor, you've made it clear that you would rather be dead than live her life. But apparently she wouldn't,

um, your operating under the delusion that she had something to do with choosing to live... she didn't choose anything... this situation was totally artificial and foisted on her. and I,d wager that soon, when she finally understands the plight that she's in, that she'd quickly end herself and put everything to rights.

Edited October 29, 2009 by lictor616

[Guest American Woman]

correction: a monstrously deformed agonizing wreck of a child. and that, is a crucial stipulation.

The key word in your sentence is CHILD. Your "stipulation" doesn't change that fact. She is a child, so why not refer to her as such?

[Melanie_]

I have a damn sight more sympathy for people born into appalling circumstances than people who choose to be irredeemable assholes. Personally, I know who'd I'd rather see eat a bullet.

There. Thats what I really wanted to say, but somehow I use too many words. Thanks, Black Dog!

[Guest TrueMetis]

um, your operating under the delusion that she had something to do with choosing to live... she didn't choose anything... this situation was totally artificial and foisted on her. and I,d wager that soon, when she finally understands the plight that she's in, that she'd quickly end herself and put everything to rights.

This is why you're scum.

[lictor616]

Right here, death is the cowards way out.

yeah like the Spartans who gathered in battle in Thermopylae...

actually the real cowards are the ones who think that death is the worst thing that can happen to a person... actually, only the supremely brave can face death knowingly...

[lictor616]

The key word in your sentence is CHILD. Your "stipulation" doesn't change that fact. She is a child, so why not refer to her as such?

alright you petulant babies... I'll refer to her as "child" to soothe your consciences.