The Ends of Religious Tolerance

[lictor616]

People from that time thought Spartans were cruel and barbaric not just now.

PS: You started it.

oh so perhaps we could talk about ancient egypt... or dinosaurs now... while we're "on the subject"...

[Melanie_]

yeah she's written up a 5.8 million dollar medical bill (and growing)...

too bad those same doctors couldn't find that same "time and effort" for all those dead kids who had asthma, bad kidneys, and bad medical insurance...

unbelievable...

That's the American system. Her medical bills are covered because her father is in the Navy. You know, "Support the Troops". According to the website, her dad has just returned from deployment not long ago - there are many that will argue that his service to his country far outweighs the cost of his child's medical care.

[M.Dancer]

yeah she's written up a 5.8 million dollar medical bill (and growing)...

So it is about the money...not that it is your money or your choice.....grown ups have made choice and you have no choice but to caterwaul at the sidelines and act immature,

[lictor616]

That's the American system. Her medical bills are covered because her father is in the Navy. You know, "Support the Troops". According to the website, her dad has just returned from deployment not long ago - there are many that will argue that his service to his country far outweighs the cost of his child's medical care.

oh puuuuhlease!

Thom Wetmore is a cargo plane pilot... doubtful if that and a deformed child is worth 5.8 million...

Edited October 29, 2009 by lictor616

[lictor616]

So it is about the money...not that it is your money or your choice.....grown ups have made choice and you have no choice but to caterwaul at the sidelines and act immature,

5.8 million for what Dancer... for what?

why?

what's the point?

[Melanie_]

Thom Wetmore is a cargo plane pilot... doubtful if that and a deformed child is worth 5.8 million...

Take it up with the system.

[lictor616]

Take it up with the system.

I am... i'm saying that this state of affairs is grossly unjust and an insult to rational people everywhere...

any system that gives a mangled mess 5.8 million dollars for NO REASON at all... while children with REAL potential for getting better are rotting in their midsts, is simply sick.

and anybody who thinks Julianna deserves it also.

Edited October 29, 2009 by lictor616

[Guest TrueMetis]

I am... i'm saying that this state of affairs is grossly unjust and an insult to rational people everywhere...

Yet it seems that the majority of people disagree with you. Maybe we should make it into a poll I'd be suprised if more than a couple of people voted your way.

[lictor616]

Yet it seems that the majority of people disagree with you. Maybe we should make it into a poll I'd be suprised if more than a couple of people voted your way.

so far no one defended the opposing argument.. that's what's annoying.

[Melanie_]

I am... i'm saying that this state of affairs is grossly unjust and an insult to rational people everywhere...

But you don't pay into that system, and the Americans place a huge value on supporting the people in uniform. You are making a very sweeping statement in saying it is an insult to rational people everywhere - and I question your credentials in speaking on behalf of rational people...

[Melanie_]

so far no one defended the opposing argument.. that's what's annoying.

Which opposing argument are we neglecting, Lictor? Because this thread is getting stale - we are rehashing the same things, over and over. What is the new (or perhaps revived) argument you would like discussed?

[Guest TrueMetis]

so far no one defended the opposing argument.. that's what's annoying.

... Your an idiot.

Edited October 29, 2009 by TrueMetis

[PocketRocket]

negative evidence is not evidence silly.

its impossible to show proof of something that never occurred...

Nonsense. The Sun has never exploded and taken the Earth with it.

North America has not sunk into the ocean.

The Moon has not fallen out of the sky.

All these things have never occurred, and proof is there to see.

In matters of Jesus and God, your opinion is nothing more than your opinion.

Your determination to pass it off as fact and shove it down peoples' throats makes you appear boorish, and, as I stated previously, also hurts your credibility.

I suggest we both leave off on this as it is not an argument you can win, and it is indeed thread drift.

If you want to continue, open another thread on the topic.

Back to the thread......

While I think I would not have made the choice Juliana's parents made, it was not my call to make.

In all honesty, I would not have the strength to carry on as they have done.

Nor do I think that once born, she should be "put down", however you want to phrase it.

She is alive, aware and intelligent.

Will she grow up to be a savant who brings us some miracle cure, or discovers some scientific breakthrough???

Only time will tell.

But if her condition is hereditary, I would hate to see her procreate.

Allowing a single specimen to survive does not pollute the gene pool.

Allowing MANY defective specimens to breed uncontrollably can.

[PocketRocket]

... Your an idiot.

Hardly an argument.

[ToadBrother]

The key word in your sentence is CHILD. Your "stipulation" doesn't change that fact. She is a child, so why not refer to her as such?

Because it's hard to advocate murdering a child. It's much easier to dehumanize. Nobody ever got too upset about killing its.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Allowing a single specimen to survive does not pollute the gene pool.

Allowing MANY defective specimens to breed uncontrollably can.

Germline gene therapy. Give it a decade maybe two.

[Guest TrueMetis]

Hardly an argument.

Neither was his.

[ToadBrother]

Allowing a single specimen to survive does not pollute the gene pool.

Allowing MANY defective specimens to breed uncontrollably can.

Does anybody here know anything about evolution? In evolution the measure of fitness is reproductive success, pure and simple. When discussing fitness, using a term like "defective" would indicate a lack of reproductive fitness. In such a situation, individuals with such defect genes are going to, statistically, input a decreasing amount overall to the gene pool.

Unless you mean something other than reproductive success, in which case it simply becomes some sort of eugenics that may or may not have anything at all to do with actual genetic traits. The history of eugenics has usually seen it applied to what are fundamentally economic traits, and applied eugenics has seen people targeted for delightful things like forced sterilization for things that weren't even fundamentally genetic anyways.

I'll repeat this, because it's important, the long-term viability of a species is in variation. The greater the variation in a genome, the more likely the species can weather a changing environment. That means that a species is going to have fitter members and less fit members, but even less fit members may in fact have genes that could confer some benefit to offspring.

But just as importantly, trying to apply principles of genetic and evolutionary sciences to how a society conducts itself is ludicrous.

[Melanie_]

If the concern is about passing on the genetic trait, why kill Juliana? She is unlikely to ever procreate. Perhaps Lictor's argument should be to kill her sisters, Kendra and Kaitlyn. They are much more likely to pass on the genetic code that could result in another child like Juliana. Maybe the cousins should also be put to death... you never know what they are carrying. In 40% of cases, Treacher Collins Syndrome is the result of a recessive gene on the 5th chromosome; in the other 60%, it is a random mutation. Hmmm, Lictor, what do you think? Do away with Kendra and Kaitlyn, because of what they might be carrying? Restrict their right to have children?

[M.Dancer]

5.8 million for what Dancer... for what?

why?

what's the point?

Because they love their child.

One day, After you have grown up and shed your social pariahnes you may find a woman with low standards...and you may have a child. If you do suddenly beoome normal, you will find that you would do anything, endure anything for your child.

And that's the point...it is why we have evolved to the point where we can take caand nurture a child that would not have survived in a degenerate society ....because we love our children unconditionaly...even the ugly ones and sometimes even the ones that embrace morally degenerate ideaologies.

[PocketRocket]

ToadBrother: Regarding your rant towards me on evolution.....

As pointed out earlier in this thread, medicine has improved to the point where what would have been non-viable specimens in the past are now able to survive, with treatment.

Perhaps my word "defective" is the source of your consternation.

Let me put it another way. If a bunch of borderline-mindless idiots is kept alive after birth via medical treatment, and throughout their lives by welfare/support/caregivers/whatever, then go on to breed large numbers of other borderline-mindless-morons, then THAT, if carried on over a very long term, could do inestimable damage to the gene pool.

In one of my earlier posts I went into that at greater length, but this is the Reader's Digest condensed version.

The trouble with our society is that people who likely would never have lived to breed because of physical and/or mental defects, are now breeding, and in some cases breeding very large families.

When you have no job, very little mind, and lots of hormones, what else is there to do???

Once there are enough of them running around, and some slightly-less mindless dolts start in with them, and so on and so on, it has an overall negative effect on the gene pool.

This, too, is evolution.

Backwards.

Edited October 29, 2009 by PocketRocket

[PocketRocket]

Because they love their child.

........

And that's the point...it is why we have evolved to the point where we can take caand nurture a child that would not have survived in a degenerate society ....because we love our children unconditionaly...even the ugly ones ......

Once the insults were removed, this is among the most sensible posts in this thread.

[PocketRocket]

Neither was his.

Fair enough, but just because someone craps in the street doesn't mean we have to do the same.

[M.Dancer]

Once the insults were removed, this is among the most sensible posts in this thread.

Insults? I thiought I was being brutally honest...

[Guest TrueMetis]

Fair enough, but just because someone craps in the street doesn't mean we have to do the same.

True but no one has ever accused me of being civilizied.