Union of the English Canadian Left

[August1991]

I have always argued that regional interests drive Canadian federal politics. Nevertheless, the NDP and the federal Liberals share ideological opinions. Liberals once claimed that the NDP are Liberals in a hurry.

A union of the federal Liberals and NDP seems to be a possibility.

To defeat Harper and the Conservatives, will the Liberals and NDP unite?

Edited October 17, 2009 by August1991

[Riverwind]

I have always argued that regional interests drive Canadian federal politics. Nevertheless, the NDP and the federal Liberals share ideological opinions. Liberals once claimed that the NDP are Liberals in a hurry.

A union of the two parties would ensure that the conservatives stay in power for a very long time because many of the centrist liberal voters would either stay home in disgust or vote conservative or green. Edited October 17, 2009 by Riverwind

[Thomas Kwon]

you do realize that liberal is centre-right where as NDP is left.

[Argus]

I have always argued that regional interests drive Canadian federal politics. Nevertheless, the NDP and the federal Liberals share ideological opinions. Liberals once claimed that the NDP are Liberals in a hurry.

A union of the federal Liberals and NDP seems to be a possibility.

To defeat Harper and the Conservatives, will the Liberals and NDP unite?

I don't think those in charge of the Liberal party can be said to have any kind of political ideology. They'll adopt whatever they think is popular and will get them votes, be it left or right.

[Hydraboss]

you do realize that liberal is centre-right where as NDP is left.

You do realize that there are no "right" or "center-right" parties in Canada? The Conservatives are center-left, the Liberals are considerably more center-left, the NDP are out in left field and everyone else makes the NDP look like they're in the middle of the spectrum.

Liberals and NDP will never unite under the current leadership (meaning leaders AND MP's). They were elected on their own political merits and it would be suicide for them to say "just kidding, I'm actually more like .......".

The only hope the "left" has is for the right to split (even ever so slightly) and have a "right wing" party take part of the Cons vote and show hard right voters there is an option. This is what happened when Reform became a real entity and, no doubt, what keeps Stephen Harper up at night.

[punked]

You do realize that there are no "right" or "center-right" parties in Canada? The Conservatives are center-left, the Liberals are considerably more center-left, the NDP are out in left field and everyone else makes the NDP look like they're in the middle of the spectrum.

Liberals and NDP will never unite under the current leadership (meaning leaders AND MP's). They were elected on their own political merits and it would be suicide for them to say "just kidding, I'm actually more like .......".

The only hope the "left" has is for the right to split (even ever so slightly) and have a "right wing" party take part of the Cons vote and show hard right voters there is an option. This is what happened when Reform became a real entity and, no doubt, what keeps Stephen Harper up at night.

Nope the way I see it right now is the Conservatives are right of Centre the Liberal party is the same party with the same policies so they are in the same place, and the NDP lean to the left.

[Hydraboss]

Nope the way I see it right now is the Conservatives are right of Centre the Liberal party is the same party with the same policies so they are in the same place, and the NDP lean to the left.

Okay, lets qualify this before we argue both sides to death.

We need a scale that we both understand. Are you okay using the US as a marker? All political parties in this country are far to the left of even the Democrats in the States. If we use Cuba, then we're all to the right. The Cons and the Libs are very different (in political leanings), you just can't tell right now because Iggy can't decide where he is. If we take track records as truth, let's look at Trudeau the Criminal or the possibly-soon-to-be-coronated Bob Rae.

That is what I am basing my statement on, so if you and I have a difference of opinion, use that as a reference point.

[punked]

Okay, lets qualify this before we argue both sides to death.

We need a scale that we both understand. Are you okay using the US as a marker? All political parties in this country are far to the left of even the Democrats in the States. If we use Cuba, then we're all to the right. The Cons and the Libs are very different (in political leanings), you just can't tell right now because Iggy can't decide where he is. If we take track records as truth, let's look at Trudeau the Criminal or the possibly-soon-to-be-coronated Bob Rae.

That is what I am basing my statement on, so if you and I have a difference of opinion, use that as a reference point.

We don't need a reference point. The parties in Canada would be the reference point. You compare them to each other not the US or Cuba.

[fellowtraveller]

We don't need a reference point. The parties in Canada would be the reference point. You compare them to each other not the US or Cuba.

Given that the Cons have been spending like socialists from day one of their government, and have not implemeneted a single piece of the feared social conservative hidden agenda, how do you arrive at the conclusion that the Cons are right wing in any way?

Just a hunch, waiting on facts to blow into town?

[capricorn]

Given that the Cons have been spending like socialists from day one of their government, and have not implemeneted a single piece of the feared social conservative hidden agenda, how do you arrive at the conclusion that the Cons are right wing in any way?

The Conservatives have know for a long time that to win government they absolutely have to occupy the middle. Deliberate steps were taken to position themselves as closely as possible to the majority of the Canadian mindset. Evidently, the Liberals have been enablers in this process.

No, I don't believe there will be a unite the left movement because the Liberals know it is they who would fall out of grace with what remains of their dwindling support. Because of their seeming unshakable grip on supporters, only the NDP would benefit from a truly leftist party. The end result would be a much too powerful Conservative party. IMHO, of course.

[punked]

Given that the Cons have been spending like socialists from day one of their government, and have not implemeneted a single piece of the feared social conservative hidden agenda, how do you arrive at the conclusion that the Cons are right wing in any way?

Just a hunch, waiting on facts to blow into town?

There attack on pay equity, Minatory minimums, the invasion of my privacy though bill c-46 and c-47 ohhhh and comparing Columbian union workers with some of the worst people in the world while trying to push through free trade with country. Don't worry though the Liberals support all those things which is why I say they are the same party if not more to right as they voted against EI legislation, while the NDP fought against all of it.

[waldo]

There attack on pay equity, Minatory minimums, the invasion of my privacy though bill c-46 and c-47 ohhhh and comparing Columbian union workers with some of the worst people in the world while trying to push through free trade with country. Don't worry though the Liberals support all those things which is why I say they are the same party if not more to right as they voted against EI legislation, while the NDP fought against all of it.

just to nibble away at you... since you keep pushing the same theme.

you keep Harping on (women's) pay equity... you know full well the Harper Conservatives did their packaging magic and buried that proposed legislation within the budget. The Liberal party was clear in it's stated reservation/concern and forcibly called for subsequent amendments. The obvious decision was one where either the budget was voted down... over a single issue like the Conservative's purposely buried women's pay equity proposed legislation... or the budget was passed in favour of managing the recession through stimulus measures. Of course, we see the NDP opted to vote against it... even before seeing the actual budget itself. Without justification you continue to bring pay equity forward as some kind of principled NDP lever... is that why "Jack" voted down the budget (before even seeing it)?

[punked]

just to nibble away at you... since you keep pushing the same theme.

you keep Harping on (women's) pay equity... you know full well the Harper Conservatives did their packaging magic and buried that proposed legislation within the budget. The Liberal party was clear in it's stated reservation/concern and forcibly called for subsequent amendments. The obvious decision was one where either the budget was voted down... over a single issue like the Conservative's purposely buried women's pay equity proposed legislation... or the budget was passed in favour of managing the recession through stimulus measures. Of course, we see the NDP opted to vote against it... even before seeing the actual budget itself. Without justification you continue to bring pay equity forward as some kind of principled NDP lever... is that why "Jack" voted down the budget (before even seeing it)?

He didn't support the legislation like the Liberals did. Infact the only thing the Liberals have stood up against so for has been the Expansion of EI. So they voted with the conservatives on all this, looks like they will support the HST and the only thing they will be on record against? EI expansion a real principled party, all we have to do is look at the votes and see they are more right then Harper, supporting him on almost everything but helping those who have paid into EI get some of their money back. SORRY YOUR PARTY SUCKS! Good thing the NDP has been there to push the progressive legislation the Liberals voted against forward and stand up against the regressive legislation the Liberals have pushed through.

[Pliny]

I don't think those in charge of the Liberal party can be said to have any kind of political ideology. They'll adopt whatever they think is popular and will get them votes, be it left or right.

Political opportunism trumps ideology I would say. The Conservatives, sensing a populist swing to the right, are abandoning some of their more liberal, progressive concepts and returning somewhat to their roots. The Liberals, unfortunately; or fortunately depending on your point of view, will have to split and abandon part of it's support base if it moves right.

[fellowtraveller]

The Conservatives have know for a long time that to win government they absolutely have to occupy the middle. Deliberate steps were taken to position themselves as closely as possible to the majority of the Canadian mindset. Evidently, the Liberals have been enablers in this process.

The Liberals knew this for a long time too, and oddly chose to abandon it around Martins time. Since they, they just drift in whatever breeze may be blowing that day on The Hill, generally to the left whwere they get mixed up in the general confusion and rhetoric.

The NDP never did understand that most Canadians, the ones that vote, are not interested in radical positions on eoither side of the spectrum. The NDPs inability to grasp this ensures they will never be relevant to Canadians. Works for me.

[Smallc]

The Conservatives, sensing a populist swing to the right,

Except for the fact that such a thing isn't really happening of course. The Conservatives do well right now because they're playing nice....almost Liberal like. If they go to a populist right wing ideology, they disappear, just like that.

[Pliny]

We don't need a reference point. The parties in Canada would be the reference point. You compare them to each other not the US or Cuba.

You still need a reference point for political parties in Canada. The political spectrum is supposed to provide a reference point so people know what their basic platform is and how they would govern.

If you only included Canada in your political spectrum you could make the NDP the far left and the conservatives the far right with the Greens on centre left and the Liberals centre right but looking at it in comparison to other forms of government or ideologies that must be included in a full political spectrum, the Canadian centre would be perhaps midway to the left of the all inclusive spectrum.

For a true picture you have to include all political ideologies, their platforms and policies.

I have mentioned previously that there is a political spectrum that you could only apply to Canada where the position of the parties would depend entirely upon how much government they deemed necessary to run a nation. The spectrum would run from no government on one side to total government on the other. Now you can independently place Canada without any relation to other national governments on it's own spectrum. The centre might be considered where we are now, a social democracy or kind of State capitalism. Looking at politics from that point of view would plainly indicate that no political party seems to be moving in the direction of less government.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Pliny

[punked]

The Liberals knew this for a long time too, and oddly chose to abandon it around Martins time. Since they, they just drift in whatever breeze may be blowing that day on The Hill, generally to the left whwere they get mixed up in the general confusion and rhetoric.

The NDP never did understand that most Canadians, the ones that vote, are not interested in radical positions on eoither side of the spectrum. The NDPs inability to grasp this ensures they will never be relevant to Canadians. Works for me.

What a BS statement. Guess what Universal Health care was a radical position so was Old age security and Canadians love them.

[Pliny]

Except for the fact that such a thing isn't really happening of course. The Conservatives do well right now because they're playing nice....almost Liberal like. If they go to a populist right wing ideology, they disappear, just like that.

They are playing nice on tippy-toes with their minority status, I agree.

It's too bad that populist right wing ideologies are identified with Conservatism. Conservatism used to be a put the brakes on progressive socialism party, then they became the Progressive Conservatives.

Now they are the Conservatives again trying to shuck the progressive identity. All progressive socialist ideologies have their birthplace on the left. Placing populist right-wing total statist ideologies on the extreme right of the political spectrum as though they are something different from total statist left-wing ideologies only serves to obfuscate the understanding of government. The Citizen is left to nervously quake in his boots and his fears constantly assuaged if there is any perception of movement to either extreme. He feels brave at election time when he can vote for more "rights" the government should be promising him - at his expense of course.

[Smallc]

Now they are the Conservatives again trying to shuck the progressive identity.

I see zero evidence of that. Absolutely zero.

[Pliny]

What a BS statement. Guess what Universal Health care was a radical position so was Old age security and Canadians love them.

I am Canadian and I don't love them.

I think other Canadians do only because they know nothing else and fear the idea of having to take back the responsibility of looking after themselves. They accept the inefficiencies, waste and inconveniences of these government run entities for those reasons. It is not until they personally have experience with access to government run anything that they realize how bad it can be. Some may like it and say it was great, to them I say, good you lucky person. Some see no other way for them to exist and the system is necessary.

You are right Universal health care and Old age security were at one time radical positions. I would say they are still radical positions but most accept them as certainties and pay for them as though their government will be around forever to provide them their "rights". There was heavy resistance to these grandiose government schemes at the time of their inception - people were more responsible for themselves and to society back then. Now it's the governments job to be responsible and pony up - they may for awhile but they generally empty the cupboards shortly after they start engineering society.

[Pliny]

Now they are the Conservatives again trying to shuck the progressive identity.

I see zero evidence of that. Absolutely zero.

I did say "try". Did you mean zero evidence of them trying or actually doing so?

Edited October 17, 2009 by Pliny

[Smallc]

At least at the leader and cabinet level, I don't see much if any attempt to move right.

[fellowtraveller]

What a BS statement. Guess what Universal Health care was a radical position so was Old age security and Canadians love them.

I look at NDP popular vote and the number of seats they hold and they both confirm exactly what I say. The vast majority of the Canadian electorate reject your ideology. They much prefer the center to far left or far right. You can hate that, you can pretend otherwise, but you ignore the reality at your peril.

What must be very tough for Dippers to swallow is that the last four years or so has presented an absolutely golden opportunity to turn their Party into a contender. Instead, the NDP wallow eternally at the edge of oblivion, hoping the Liberals or Greens don't siphon off even more votes and make you even less relevant.

You can move to the center, or you can continue in the party tradition of righteous loserdom. Your choice.

[Peter F]

If us dippers want the NDP to form the government we must stop voting for the NDP.

and if Liberals want to form the government they must stop voting Liberal

...doesn't apply to conservatives though.

What a load of bunk