Union of the English Canadian Left

[madmax]

You do realize that there are no "right" or "center-right" parties in Canada? The Conservatives are center-left, the Liberals are considerably more center-left, the NDP are out in left field and everyone else makes the NDP look like they're in the middle of the spectrum.

If one basis their analysis on fiscally sound government and balanced budgets, the NDP leads all parties in fiscal responsibility.

If it is on Social policy, the LPC and NDP are closer... but then again that requires closer inspection.

The Harris Conservatives ushered in Gay Marriage. The Davis Conservatives had more strength in their caucus for Gay spousal benefits then the other parties. A few years later, when the NDP found themselves in government, they put spousal benefits for Gays into a free vote instead of a whipped vote. Liberals during this same era moved closer to supporting Gays.

Brian Mulroney was no more fiscally Conservative then Pierre Trudeau. Chretian is seen as governing left, with Martin representing the fiscal right.

If you are to say that the Canadian Parties are left of the American Parties, you are correct to do so. US governments of the two main rightwing parties, don't balance the books.

The US could use an NDP or a Reform party (As they recently had 15 years ago) to help create a third way or option.

[madmax]

If us dippers want the NDP to form the government we must stop voting for the NDP.

Heck of alot more dippers on MLW then I was aware of....

So, what part don't you understand.... stop voting NDP and vote Liberal....

I can see you guys cringing as if it was Saruman asking Gandalf to Join with them to defeat Sauron...

[punked]

I look at NDP popular vote and the number of seats they hold and they both confirm exactly what I say. The vast majority of the Canadian electorate reject your ideology. They much prefer the center to far left or far right. You can hate that, you can pretend otherwise, but you ignore the reality at your peril.

What must be very tough for Dippers to swallow is that the last four years or so has presented an absolutely golden opportunity to turn their Party into a contender. Instead, the NDP wallow eternally at the edge of oblivion, hoping the Liberals or Greens don't siphon off even more votes and make you even less relevant.

You can move to the center, or you can continue in the party tradition of righteous loserdom. Your choice.

The problem this is a BS statement. The NDP could propose a small bisuness tax cut and still be called anti-small bisuness don't believe me it has already happened. The problem isn't that Canadians don't like NDP policy the problem is Canadians don't know NDP policy. They don't know any policy but give them time the break through will happen. Never say never.

[Hydraboss]

The problem this is a BS statement. The NDP could propose a small bisuness tax cut and still be called anti-small bisuness don't believe me it has already happened. The problem isn't that Canadians don't like NDP policy the problem is Canadians don't know NDP policy. They don't know any policy but give them time the break through will happen. Never say never.

Exactly how many more decades would you like? I'm pretty sure we can all say "never" when it comes to the NDP becoming government.

[punked]

Exactly how many more decades would you like? I'm pretty sure we can all say "never" when it comes to the NDP becoming government.

I don't know it took about 70 years in NS so it might take longer then that eh? Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it can't happen that is flawed arguement that Liberals use to try and drag votes away from the NDP. Anything can happen tomorrow.

[Hydraboss]

If one basis their analysis on fiscally sound government and balanced budgets, the NDP leads all parties in fiscal responsibility.

If it is on Social policy, the LPC and NDP are closer... but then again that requires closer inspection.

The Harris Conservatives ushered in Gay Marriage. The Davis Conservatives had more strength in their caucus for Gay spousal benefits then the other parties. A few years later, when the NDP found themselves in government, they put spousal benefits for Gays into a free vote instead of a whipped vote. Liberals during this same era moved closer to supporting Gays.

Brian Mulroney was no more fiscally Conservative then Pierre Trudeau. Chretian is seen as governing left, with Martin representing the fiscal right.

If you are to say that the Canadian Parties are left of the American Parties, you are correct to do so. US governments of the two main rightwing parties, don't balance the books.

The US could use an NDP or a Reform party (As they recently had 15 years ago) to help create a third way or option.

Yes, Canadian parties are all left of the most left US party. Simple fact.

To say that the NDP are the most fiscally responsible party is ridiculous. We are talking federal here and the NDP have never (and never will) been government and therefore can promise anything they like without ever having to worry about dealing with broken promises. Why not just say "98% personal tax cut"? What would it matter? They hold no more relevance than the Communist Party or the Rhino Party. A few seats in the House simply sucks more taxpayers dollars. There are only two contending parties (for the last...oh...many decades) and this will not change until the Liberals implode.

[Pliny]

The problem isn't that Canadians don't like NDP policy the problem is Canadians don't know NDP policy.

They are the bully pulpit for the little guy, aren't they? "Together we can make it", "United, we stand" "We are one" and all that.

[Hydraboss]

The problem isn't that Canadians don't like NDP policy the problem is Canadians don't know NDP policy.

Or more pointedly, Canadians don't care about NDP policy. Take a look at any poll done in the last 40 years. Have they even been close to forming government? No. And for good reason.

[punked]

Or more pointedly, Canadians don't care about NDP policy. Take a look at any poll done in the last 40 years. Have they even been close to forming government? No. And for good reason.

Any poll really?

1987-1989 the NDP lead a few polls problem was we ran a terrible campaign and the support went to the Liberals on election day this is why Liberals think NDP support will go to them becuase in that race it actually did.

[Smallc]

Well I'm not surprised that the NDP got such good numbers since they'd just finished introducing the Constitution and the Charter or Rights a few years before.

Edited October 18, 2009 by Smallc

[punked]

Well I'm not surprised that the NDP got such good numbers since they'd just finished introducing the Constitution and the Charter or Rights a years before.

They actually introduced the idea in 1950, although the Liberal government at the time said it was stuipd and wouldn't even listen to Tommy Douglas and the CCF who called for it.

[Hydraboss]

Any poll really?

1987-1989 the NDP lead a few polls problem was we ran a terrible campaign and the support went to the Liberals on election day this is why Liberals think NDP support will go to them becuase in that race it actually did.

Mind showing me one? I just looked and can't find a single poll where the NDP lead the country federally. I would be interested to read one.

Thanks,

[punked]

Mind showing me one? I just looked and can't find a single poll where the NDP lead the country federally. I would be interested to read one.

Thanks,

http://archives.cbc.ca/politics/parties_leaders/clips/10676/

[Hydraboss]

http://archives.cbc.ca/politics/parties_leaders/clips/10676/

Thanks. I'd forgotten that. Anything in the past 22 years?

[punked]

Thanks. I'd forgotten that. Anything in the past 22 years?

Leading the polls? I don't think so accept we have formed government in the last 22 years in 5 provinces, been voted back in, in 3 and have quite the record on budgets if you leave our Ontario. I mean honestly never say never, the march towards progress is not always the quickest one or the most direct route but the NDP keeps fighting the fight. Just last week their members bill on social housing passed second reading.

It might be also mentioned the NDP was getting some really good press until the election when the media went to Turner realizing it might be effecting the race for its chosen party.

[Rovik]

This notion that The NDP is a far left socialist party is just scare tactics that their opponents have used to try to scare people from voting for the NDP. The NDP are a social democratic (not socialist) party that would be considered centre-left. The liberals would be somewhere in the centre while the Conservatives come across as a centre-right party.

I am not denying that there may be a fringe element within the NDP that may be further left then the majority but the same can be said for the Conservatives who have an element which would be considered far right.

[Hydraboss]

Leading the polls? I don't think so accept we have formed government in the last 22 years in 5 provinces, been voted back in, in 3 and have quite the record on budgets if you leave our Ontario. I mean honestly never say never, the march towards progress is not always the quickest one or the most direct route but the NDP keeps fighting the fight. Just last week their members bill on social housing passed second reading.

It might be also mentioned the NDP was getting some really good press until the election when the media went to Turner realizing it might be effecting the race for its chosen party.

Provincial means absolutely nothing, otherwise the Tory's would be running the world.

Don't get me wrong...I would greatly like to see the complete self-destruction of the federal Liberals and have the NDP survive. I think it's high time the Canadian public had a clear choice - left or right. The multi-party system does nothing except confuse the issue. Either Canada is socialist or not socialist. A two party system with the NDP on one side and the Tory's on the other would finally answer that.

[Smallc]

I like this idea. If it's not A, it has to be Z. Lets forget about the other 24 letters, because they don't count. I don't think there's a socialist/non socialist line. The world in reality doesn't exist in black and white the same way that it does in the heads of many on the right.

[August1991]

I don't think those in charge of the Liberal party can be said to have any kind of political ideology. They'll adopt whatever they think is popular and will get them votes, be it left or right.

I would be the first to agree that Liberals have no ideology except that even I must admit that Liberals generally want more government. Bill Clinton too was primarily a pragmatist - but he edged to more government. This is a question of shade.

No, I don't believe there will be a unite the left movement because the Liberals know it is they who would fall out of grace with what remains of their dwindling support. Because of their seeming unshakable grip on supporters, only the NDP would benefit from a truly leftist party. The end result would be a much too powerful Conservative party. IMHO, of course.

But if the NDP and the Liberals remain separate, they will divide the Left/anti-Conservative vote. The Conservatives will have a lock on power with about 40% of the popular vote.

It seems to me that regional (not ideological) federal Liberal support in Quebec, the Maritimes and Ontario allowed this division on the Left.

Except for the fact that such a thing isn't really happening of course. The Conservatives do well right now because they're playing nice....almost Liberal like. If they go to a populist right wing ideology, they disappear, just like that.

There's the rub, smallc. About 35% to 40% of Canadians agree with this "right wing ideology" as you call it. And with a divided Left, the Conservatives can form a majority government.

Very badly executed, Dion's idea of a coalition was maybe prescient. The Liberals have to reform and perhaps their reform will be to eat the NDP.

-----

I still think that Canadian federal politics are primarily regional, even in English Canada. Nevertheless, I think Harper's Conservatives are going to provoke an ideological reaction from the Liberals.

In related fashion, IMV, Quebec is at a tipping point and ripe for a change. The PQ/PLQ divide is tiresome. This basic division in Quebec will always exist but it needs a new expression.

Smart investors dismiss claims of "new paradigms" but I think Canadian federal politics have changed in the past few years. Jean Charest's re-election is an indication of the change.

[Hydraboss]

I like this idea. If it's not A, it has to be Z. Lets forget about the other 24 letters, because they don't count. I don't think there's a socialist/non socialist line. The world in reality doesn't exist in black and white the same way that it does in the heads of many on the right.

As you grow up, you'll begin to understand that sometimes there are only two choices.

Either we should be in Afghanistan, or we shouldn't.

Either you murdered someone, or you didn't.

Either you should spend $500 million on project y or you shouldn't.

Either you want to increase taxes, or you don't.

There is no place for:

I think we should most likely be in Afghanistan.

I kinda murdered someone.

i think we should sort of spend $500 million on project y.

I believe we should partially increase taxes, but not really.

It's called taking a stand for what you believe in. Try it. It only hurts for a minute.

[Smallc]

Maybe when you grow up, you'll understand that the world doesn't exist in black and white.

[Hydraboss]

Maybe when you grow up, you'll understand that the world doesn't exist in black and white.

Parts of it do, child, and you would do well to understand that. Shades of gray apply in many things, but not in political ideaology. As members have pointed out countless times, you are young and idealistic. That is good at your age. Once you reach the point where your pessimism has been well earned, you too will see the folly of your ways and beliefs.

There are times when black and white are the only way.

But I don't expect you to recognize that or believe it. Your ideals guide your beliefs (as it should be). Your political beliefs are juvenile but you will refuse to acknowledge that (as you should). One day, the taxes and the violent crime will be too much for your ideals, and you will become like me.

Wait for it.....it'll happen.

[Smallc]

Not everyone becomes as cynical and jaded as you, and I certainly don't intend to. Politics is most definitely a shade of gray type of thing. To thing otherwise is simply to ignore reality.

[dre]

Provincial means absolutely nothing, otherwise the Tory's would be running the world.

Don't get me wrong...I would greatly like to see the complete self-destruction of the federal Liberals and have the NDP survive. I think it's high time the Canadian public had a clear choice - left or right. The multi-party system does nothing except confuse the issue. Either Canada is socialist or not socialist. A two party system with the NDP on one side and the Tory's on the other would finally answer that.

I think it's high time the Canadian public had a clear choice - left or right.

Thats not a clear choice, its a false choice.

[dre]

Parts of it do, child, and you would do well to understand that. Shades of gray apply in many things, but not in political ideaology. As members have pointed out countless times, you are young and idealistic. That is good at your age. Once you reach the point where your pessimism has been well earned, you too will see the folly of your ways and beliefs.

There are times when black and white are the only way.

But I don't expect you to recognize that or believe it. Your ideals guide your beliefs (as it should be). Your political beliefs are juvenile but you will refuse to acknowledge that (as you should). One day, the taxes and the violent crime will be too much for your ideals, and you will become like me.

Wait for it.....it'll happen.

The taxes and violent crime became too much for your ideals?