Flip Flop Iggy Flips again

[Mr.Canada]

Dada Stevie.....

Canada looks to it's leader for leadership right?

Children look to their parents for leadership as well.

One and the same.

[Jack Weber]

Canada looks to it's leader for leadership right?

Children look to their parents for leadership as well.

One and the same.

Speak for yourself,Mr.Falange....

[Mr.Canada]

Speak for yourself,Mr.Falange....

What do you look to your PM for if not leadership?

[punked]

See, the great thing about Jack is that he can stand on all his promises all he wants. That's our entire point. He can say the most grandiose stuff ever uttered because he'll never win an election and can never back it up. Like I said, there's a difference between campaigning and governing. Like we've been saying, you can stand on your soapbox and claim ideological superiority but the fact that you're still clinging to that (because you've got nothing else) says that while we may think of politics as superficial, at least we're realistic about it. Your view of things is so naive and child like it's honestly a little depressing. Society isn't static. When governing, every situation is fluid. Changes have to be made on the fly to address a problem that didn't arise during a campaign or something just not thought of. You have to work with the bureaucracy to get things done and as the Tories have found out, that's not exactly easy. Things change and so must our approach policy wise.

Yet, we have the NDP and their lackies with absolutely no experience in what governance actually is mocking people in power for not rigidly sticking to ideology. Which in itself you're being wildly naive. Your attacks in and of themselves are highly opportunistic as well. You're engaging in the same kind of crass politics you shit all over other people for.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Yah you might want to look at the NDP track record when governing it blows the Liberals out of the water.

Budgetary surpluses or deficits by party

(1986-87 to 2008-09)

Party Years in government . Years in deficit Years in surplus(as percent)

NDP 53 26 50.94

Conservative 124 61 50.81

Parti Quebecois 8 4 50.00

Liberal 91 64 29.67

I know this table is hard to read but it shows the NDP in deficit around 50% of the time and in surplus 51% of the time while the Liberals are in deficit around 65% of the time and in surplus 30% of the time.

You need to stop pretending like the NDP hasn't govern in the last 50 years. They have and they have had successes and failures which I think stand on their own. Liberals of this country need to pick up a book and open it. I am willing to have an argument based on facts not on silly claims like. "Well the NDP can do anything they want because blah blah blah. Get a grip and stop whining because your guys made a bunch of promises to get votes they couldn't delivered on then back peddled.

Yep the NDP have had policy and stood for it like when they opposed corporate tax cuts. It took the Liberals 3 and half years to admit the NDP was right and in doing so they pretend like the NDP never said these things in the first place. The NDP said in 2008 lets have a national Home care plan. It only took the Liberals 2 years to steal that idea. DO I really have to go on. I get the NDP are about 2 years ahead of the Liberals on their progressive ideas and maybe unlike the Liberals if they win will try to actually deliver them.

Keep Flip Floppy though maybe your argument will stick and your guys will win to back peddle on all the promises they made.

Edited January 30, 2011 by punked

[GWiz]

If you think losing a Bi-election or a real election bothers me it explains why you are a Liberal. I would rather stand for something and lose 1000 elections then make promises and break everyone of them every election. See you keep just playing up what I am saying about Liberals and the Liberal party. As for Layton Flip Flops you will have to remind me them, he does a red book or anything with hundred promises all broken after 15 years in power so it is a little hard for me here to understand what you saying.

You really have a superficial understanding of politics and it explains a lot of what you have said in this thread.

Here's the thing, one of these days you'll wake up and realize that I was only trying to HELP you understand the way the Federal NDP are putting the Cons (Harper) into power... By spliting the vote between the NDP and Liberals a would be 2nd or 3rd Conservative candidate wins... But to make the concept a little simpler for you to understand why don't I just let one of your own tell you:

One of the greatest organizational difficulties for the NDP has been the 2004 election finances legislation, which virtually eliminates trade union financial contributions to the party that labour co-founded. Another challenge emerged during the 2006 election when Canadian Auto Workers (CAW) president Buzz Hargrove called for union members to vote strategically. He urged unionists and others, where necessary, not to vote NDP, but instead vote Liberal, in order to stop a CONSERVATIVE PARTY victory. The debate continues over the place of Canada's labour party and the role of trade union members in political action and party politics.http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0005699

Also, did you know that every "social" piece of legislation that the NDP wrongly try to take credit for was enacted by a Liberal Government? That means all your vitriol (Layton's in particular) against the Liberals means that you get a Government (Harper and the Cons) that's a whole lot less friendly to anything the NDP would like to see...

Did you know that in the entire history of Federal politics in Canada not a single piece of legislation was brought to the floor of the House of Commons by the CCF/NDP?

So you can rant all you want about Liberals my friend, I expect nothing less from NDPers (Canada's version of the Communist Party)...

And YES, there IS a great difference between Provincial and Federal Politics as I hope you can now see...

No need to thank me for the education... You're welcome...

[Jack Weber]

What do you look to your PM for if not leadership?

Cetainly NOT a creepy "I've got Daddy Issues" fawning over a man who does'nt even know you...

Get help...

[punked]

Here's the thing, one of these days you'll wake up and realize that I was only trying to HELP you understand the way the Federal NDP are putting the Cons (Harper) into power... By spliting the vote between the NDP and Liberals a would be 2nd or 3rd Conservative candidate wins... But to make the concept a little simpler for you to understand why don't I just let one of your own tell you:

One of the greatest organizational difficulties for the NDP has been the 2004 election finances legislation, which virtually eliminates trade union financial contributions to the party that labour co-founded. Another challenge emerged during the 2006 election when Canadian Auto Workers (CAW) president Buzz Hargrove called for union members to vote strategically. He urged unionists and others, where necessary, not to vote NDP, but instead vote Liberal, in order to stop a CONSERVATIVE PARTY victory. The debate continues over the place of Canada's labour party and the role of trade union members in political action and party politics.http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0005699

Also, did you know that every "social" piece of legislation that the NDP wrongly try to take credit for was enacted by a Liberal Government? That means all your vitriol (Layton's in particular) against the Liberals means that you get a Government (Harper and the Cons) that's a whole lot less friendly to anything the NDP would like to see...

Did you know that in the entire history of Federal politics in Canada not a single piece of legislation was brought to the floor of the House of Commons by the CCF/NDP?

So you can rant all you want about Liberals my friend, I expect nothing less from NDPers (Canada's version of the Communist Party)...

And YES, there IS a great difference between Provincial and Federal Politics as I hope you can now see...

No need to thank me for the education... You're welcome...

See again you don't get it the NDP are trying to keep the Conservatives out of power because the Liberals and Conservatives are the same party right now. The Liberal leader agrees with Harper on almost all issues and shows that by letting all his votes pass. Seriously if the Liberals were a left leaning progressive party they might get my vote but they aren't. You really need to go look at the track record of the Liberal party before you preach to me about keeping the Conservatives in power. It is a stupid argument that the Liberals always go to. I don't care what party is in power I care about how they govern. I don't care if they are blue or Red remember the Liberals not only started these Corporate tax cuts they also campaigned on them. They wont roll them back because they are scared they will look like they raising taxes.

BTW

Also, did you know that every "social" piece of legislation that the NDP wrongly try to take credit for was enacted by a Liberal Government? That means all your vitriol (Layton's in particular) against the Liberals means that you get a Government (Harper and the Cons) that's a whole lot less friendly to anything the NDP would like to see...

Did you know that in the entire history of Federal politics in Canada not a single piece of legislation was brought to the floor of the House of Commons by the CCF/NDP?

So you can rant all you want about Liberals my friend, I expect nothing less from NDPers (Canada's version of the Communist Party)...

And YES, there IS a great difference between Provincial and Federal Politics as I hope you can now see...

No need to thank me for the education... You're welcome...

Wow some of the dumbest things I have ever heard. Seriously this is what I am saying about you having a very superficial understanding of politics in this country. Where to start really how about the Claim "every" CCF/NDP victory was because of the Liberals.

Let me remind you that the HIDS Act of 1957 which was the start of national Medicare in this country was enacted by John Diefenbaker a PC Prime Minster he also modeled the first Bills of rights off of one which Douglas intentioned in Sask. Again you show you know nothing of the history of this country there were a number of things Diefenbaker that were progressive and modeled off of the NDP policy.

Did I know the NDP has never brought a bill to the floor. That is news to me it seems to me parliament passed a National Housing Strategy just last year a bill brought to the floor by get this THE NDP. Seriously dude you don't know how parliament works do you?

No I don't see a difference accept you look very silly to say things like "The NDP Can never win" and in the same breath talk about how awesome the Man Liberals are who have 2 seats in the Leg right now and have has about that many for the last 30 years.

Just wow.

[GWiz]

Yah you might want to look at the NDP track record when governing it blows the Liberals out of the water.

Budgetary surpluses or deficits by party

(1986-87 to 2008-09)

You need to stop pretending like the NDP hasn't govern in the last 50 years. They have and they have had successes and failures which I think stand on their own. Liberals of this country need to pick up a book and open it. I am willing to have an argument based on facts not on silly claims like. "Well the NDP can do anything they want because blah blah blah. Get a grip and stop whining because your guys made a bunch of promises to get votes they couldn't delivered on then back peddled.

Yep the NDP have had policy and stood for it like when they opposed corporate tax cuts. It took the Liberals 3 and half years to admit the NDP was right and in doing so they pretend like the NDP never said these things in the first place. The NDP said in 2008 lets have a national Home care plan. It only took the Liberals 2 years to steal that idea. DO I really have to go on. I get the NDP are about 2 years ahead of the Liberals on their progressive ideas and maybe unlike the Liberals if they win will try to actually deliver them.

Keep Flip Floppy though maybe your argument will stick and your guys will win to back peddle on all the promises they made.

Biggest budget deficits and rampant chroniism EVER in Manitoba was by the NDP under Schreyer...

Gary Doer on the other hand Governed to the middle and didn't do too bad at all... Guess that's why Harper and the Cons wanted him out and gave him the Ambassador to the US gig...

It's looking good for the Cons in Manitoba this year...

[punked]

Biggest budget deficits and rampant chroniism EVER in Manitoba was by the NDP under Schreyer...

Gary Doer on the other hand Governed to the middle and didn't do too bad at all... Guess that's why Harper and the Cons wanted him out and gave him the Ambassador to the US gig...

It's looking good for the Cons in Manitoba this year...

Ahhhhh look an argument on facts. Yep Schreyer put a huge investment in Hydro power which cost ALOT of money I agree, if you think that was a bad idea and a bad form of deficit spending then I think it is your right to argue that fact. However considering Manitoba has a huge energy market and that is why it is a success right I think you would be dead wrong. Like I said you have to stop pretending like the NDP has never govern they have and they have done well. Have they kept every promise? No but they have forward thinking and have set up most of the provinces where they have been in power in the right direction. Might be why in most those provinces the Liberals have ceased to exits or have had to merge with the Conservatives. Which is my point isn't it? That the Liberals have more in common with Conservatives then progressive in this country. BTW it seems to me the LIBERAL PARTY of Canada must have thought him a pretty good Premier to name him Governor General of Canada but then again maybe now they think him terrible because he govern well. FLIP FLOP FLIP FLOP.

As for the Conservatives winning next time, they very well might but I don't think the Liberals will because most of the Liberals have folded into the conservatives in Manitoba.

I would also point out like many other things you are wrong on the deficits. He had the lowest Debt to GDP ratio of any Premier ever in Manitoba.

Edited January 30, 2011 by punked

[Bob]

I see Ignatieff as the Canadian Mitt Romney, in the sense that both politicians seems to have the tools and potential to be strong political forces to be reckoned with, yet are cursed with a destructive Achilles heel - they have no principles and will say whatever they think people want them to say.

Anyone else get this impression? Tell me I'm not alone.

[Shakeyhands]

This is the exact reason we need a Harper Tory majority in Canada. Harper has done a great job as PM in the last 5 years. NO hidden agenda in sight. Let's reward these Tories with a majority.

Harper is teaching us like a father would teach his children. Let us gather around at PM Harpers feet while he tells us a story of how to best beat back the socialist hoards at our gates. Let Harpers stories return Canada to a more simple time where each man and woman knew where they stood. We worked hard and were rewarded for it.

Speak to us PM, Canada is listening. We need your guidance like a child who misbehaves would. Canada is ready.

Seriously... why do you feel the need to post this shit? Seriously.

[nicky10013]

Yah you might want to look at the NDP track record when governing it blows the Liberals out of the water.

Budgetary surpluses or deficits by party

(1986-87 to 2008-09)

You need to stop pretending like the NDP hasn't govern in the last 50 years. They have and they have had successes and failures which I think stand on their own. Liberals of this country need to pick up a book and open it. I am willing to have an argument based on facts not on silly claims like. "Well the NDP can do anything they want because blah blah blah. Get a grip and stop whining because your guys made a bunch of promises to get votes they couldn't delivered on then back peddled.

Yep the NDP have had policy and stood for it like when they opposed corporate tax cuts. It took the Liberals 3 and half years to admit the NDP was right and in doing so they pretend like the NDP never said these things in the first place. The NDP said in 2008 lets have a national Home care plan. It only took the Liberals 2 years to steal that idea. DO I really have to go on. I get the NDP are about 2 years ahead of the Liberals on their progressive ideas and maybe unlike the Liberals if they win will try to actually deliver them.

Keep Flip Floppy though maybe your argument will stick and your guys will win to back peddle on all the promises they made.

So the only thing that matters in terms of governing is whether you run a budget surplus? You sound like a Liberal to me.

Furthermore, it's telling that the only thing that you can say the NDP has stood their ground on has been corporate tax cuts. Funny, because they're not even in government and like I've been saying, can't stand on it because they simply can't do anything about it.

[nicky10013]

Have they kept every promise? No

Exactly. So tone down the holier than thou attitude. You claim the Liberals are closer to the Conservatives than the NDP and you may be right. However, the NDP is closer to the Conservatives in one respect. I call it the "Our shit don't stink" syndrome.

Edited January 31, 2011 by nicky10013

[punked]

So the only thing that matters in terms of governing is whether you run a budget surplus? You sound like a Liberal to me.

Furthermore, it's telling that the only thing that you can say the NDP has stood their ground on has been corporate tax cuts. Funny, because they're not even in government and like I've been saying, can't stand on it because they simply can't do anything about it.

Nope the point it is a part of measurement of GOOD GOVERNANCE. It is just one I mean we can list accomplishments and firsts which the NDP and CCF brought in Canada. OR we could talk about ideas and policy, we could look at GDP measures of NDP provinces, or standards of living all these are measurements. My point is you ignore the fact that the NDP has govern in Canada, and simple say "it is easy to talk when you never governed." That isn't the point they have govern and I would put their track record of progressive governments against the Liberals anyday. That is the point your argument is silly and wrong. Glade we can agree on that much, the NDP has a record and if you want to talk about it we can.

Nicky I don't think you get it. It isn't "Our shit don't stink" it is just that the Liberals is just so much worse. You got a record which you keep dismissing by saying "Well the NDP never....." well guess what they have and they did it better then the Liberals. Might be why the Liberals (as a progressive party) are whipped off the map west of Ontario eh? I am talking both provincial and Federal.

[nicky10013]

Nope the point it is a part of measurement of GOOD GOVERNANCE. It is just one I mean we can list accomplishments and firsts which the NDP and CCF brought in Canada. OR we could talk about ideas and policy, we could look at GDP measures of NDP provinces, or standards of living all these are measurements. My point is you ignore the fact that the NDP has govern in Canada, and simple say "it is easy to talk when you never governed." That isn't the point they have govern and I would put their track record of progressive governments against the Liberals anyday. That is the point your argument is silly and wrong. Glade we can agree on that much, the NDP has a record and if you want to talk about it we can.

Alright.

The Liberals are responsible for medicare, CPP, the Constitution, 2 referendum victories, the national flag, Student loans, one of the longest stretches of surpluses and economic growth in Canadian history. We also did the Canadian Navy - Mackenzie King not only led Canada through World War 2 but laid the foundations for the Statute of Westminster which extended Canadian sovereignty. We brought in multiculturalism and the current head of the Liberal Party is one of the fathers of Responsibility to Protect.

Pretty big accomplishments, no?

Nicky I don't think you get it. It isn't "Our shit don't stink" it is just that the Liberals is just so much worse. You got a record which you keep dismissing by saying "Well the NDP never....." well guess what they have and they did it better then the Liberals. Might be why the Liberals (as a progressive party) are whipped off the map west of Ontario eh? I am talking both provincial and Federal.

Hahaha what a campaign slogan. "We're not that great but the other guys are SOOOOOOO much worse."

[punked]

Alright.

The Liberals are responsible for medicare, CPP, the Constitution, 2 referendum victories, the national flag, Student loans, one of the longest stretches of surpluses and economic growth in Canadian history. We also did the Canadian Navy - Mackenzie King not only led Canada through World War 2 but laid the foundations for the Statute of Westminster which extended Canadian sovereignty. We brought in multiculturalism and the current head of the Liberal Party is one of the fathers of Responsibility to Protect.

Pretty big accomplishments, no?

Hahaha what a campaign slogan. "We're not that great but the other guys are SOOOOOOO much worse."

Haha Funny. Yep the Liberals played a Role in Medicare so did the CCF and PCs, the Liberals played a role in CPP so did the Progressive party, the Liberals played a roll in the Constitution so did the CCF, they certainly drove Quebec to Referendums by playing wedge politics. The Liberals got all kinds of surpluses by taking money out of the EI fund and down loading debt to the provinces. Mackenzie King did "lead" us through WW2 and was responsible for some terrible policies during it (because he was a rabid anti Semite no jews in his Canada right?).

No one is arguing the Liberals have done a lot of good when forced to because of the fear of losing power. That is my problem with them it isn't that they haven't done a lot with the greatest nation. It is that they never did it because it was good for Canada they did it because it was good for the Liberal party of Canada. That is my point. I would rather just go with the NDP then wait 20 years for an opportunity for the NDP force the Liberals to do the right thing. It seems like I am cutting out the middle man in this situation.

Edited January 31, 2011 by punked

[punked]

Hahaha what a campaign slogan. "We're not that great but the other guys are SOOOOOOO much worse."

I am pretty sure that is the Liberals campaign slogan every election Nicky in fact you have said in this thread like 1000 times.

"Be scared to vote NDP because if you do you might get a progressive government but most likely you will get Harper, and do you really want Harper? No vote Liberal even though we really aren't good." Seriously it is like this thread is not only flip flopping by Liberal leaders but their supporters as well. Go figure. In the land of the blind right?

[Esq]

I am pretty sure that is the Liberals campaign slogan every election Nicky in fact you have said in this thread like 1000 times.

"Be scared to vote NDP because if you do you might get a progressive government but most likely you will get Harper, and do you really want Harper? No vote Liberal even though we really aren't good." Seriously it is like this thread is not only flip flopping by Liberal leaders but their supporters as well. Go figure. In the land of the blind right?

Or you can jump on the Social Wagon and try to create a nationally acceptable line of candidates able to form a government in the time between now and the march writ.

http://williamashley.info/SOCIAL/SP/SP.htm

There is always another option.

The smallest thing people should maybe look at is joining the "online party of Canada" - a populus based party - free to join - where members have a vote and it allows online correspondence and a "consensus" where there is a defintinite whiping.

I'm more in support of a party where the party shares my views on key issues, rather than a party of majority rules.

http://www.onlineparty.ca

The other option of course is to nominate someone you think would be good.

Take them aside and say - Hey you, you would be a great person to represent me in Ottawa, if me and 99 other people all thought this, would you run in th next election if we paid your bills to run?

http://www.elections.ca/content.aspx?section=pol&dir=can/bck&document=index〈=e

Edited January 31, 2011 by Esq

[nicky10013]

Haha Funny. Yep the Liberals played a Role in Medicare so did the CCF and PCs, the Liberals played a role in CPP so did the Progressive party, the Liberals played a roll in the Constitution so did the CCF, they certainly drove Quebec to Referendums by playing wedge politics. The Liberals got all kinds of surpluses by taking money out of the EI fund and down loading debt to the provinces. Mackenzie King did "lead" us through WW2 and was responsible for some terrible policies during it (because he was a rabid anti Semite no jews in his Canada right?).

Ah, the Liberals only played a roll. Let me ask you this. If the Liberals weren't in power, would those things have been implemented? The answer is undoubtedly no. To say the Liberals only played a role in Mike Pearson's accomplishment is a spit in the face of Mike Pearson. Pearson was forced to do nothing. It was his agenda. He was fortunate to have the NDP to help him along, but if he had a majority he would've done those things anyhow. The constitution was Trudeau's baby. To say that the Liberals only played "a roll" is basically a lie. That was all Trudeau. As was multiculturalism. He fought for further French integration within the bureaucracy as french speakers from Quebec were routinely discriminated against. He did it all within the context of strong federalism. So, I suppose if you want to call trying to keep the country together wedge politics than I suppose he's guilty, but really, that's just one of another bold faced lies we've seen. The Liberals did cut money from EI, however, considering the budget deficits, something had to be done. This ugly theme raises it's head once again. It's easy to critique, but what was the NDP plan? To continue with deficit spending? Raise taxes more? That's an honest question, but one I don't expect a serious response to.

Yeah there was some terrible shit that went on during the war. Absolutely. However, that was also representative of Canada as a whole and not just it's leaders. There were Nazi race riots at Christie Pitts in downtown Toronto just before the war started. There were "No Jews Allowed" signs all over the city. It's terrible but we're all guilty of that sin, not just the Liberals. The problem with representative democracies is they tend to be representative - both good and bad.

No one is arguing the Liberals have done a lot of good when forced to because of the fear of losing power.

Yeah most of the stuff I mentioned happened under majority governments and as I mentioned, Pearson would've moved ahead with his agenda with a majority anyhow so this is just partisan non-sense.

That is my problem with them it isn't that they haven't done a lot with the greatest nation. It is that they never did it because it was good for Canada they did it because it was good for the Liberal party of Canada. That is my point. I would rather just go with the NDP then wait 20 years for an opportunity for the NDP force the Liberals to do the right thing. It seems like I am cutting out the middle man in this situation.

I think that's crap but hey, I guess that's your opinion. Personally, I think that a Party can look out for both itself and the nation at the same time. I mean, if a party gets something done they can be proud of, why shouldn't they use it to their advantage? The NDP does it all the time even though federally the party really has accomplished next to nothing.

Speaking of which, where are all the super great things you claim the NDP did?

Edited January 31, 2011 by nicky10013

[nicky10013]

I am pretty sure that is the Liberals campaign slogan every election Nicky in fact you have said in this thread like 1000 times.

"Be scared to vote NDP because if you do you might get a progressive government but most likely you will get Harper, and do you really want Harper? No vote Liberal even though we really aren't good." Seriously it is like this thread is not only flip flopping by Liberal leaders but their supporters as well. Go figure. In the land of the blind right?

I don't agree with that stance, but in the end in terms of hard political reality, it's true and you know it's true. Furthermore, if you haven't been paying attention, I've never claimed that the Liberals don't play politics. They do. Why? Because it is politics. My only point here has been that it's a little hypocritical of you to be throwing around terms like flip flop when every party is guilty of the same thing.

If you really don't like the strategy of Liberals telling dippers not to vote for Layton because you'll get Harper, maybe offer up something the NDP wants rather than trying to make the case that the Liberals are the devil.

[punked]

Ah, the Liberals only played a roll. Let me ask you this. If the Liberals weren't in power, would those things have been implemented? The answer is undoubtedly no. To say the Liberals only played a role in Mike Pearson's accomplishment is a spit in the face of Mike Pearson. Pearson was forced to do nothing. It was his agenda. He was fortunate to have the NDP to help him along, but if he had a majority he would've done The constitution was Trudeau's baby. To say that the Liberals only played "a roll" is basically a lie. That was all Trudeau. As was multiculturalism. He fought for further French integration within the bureaucracy as french speakers from Quebec were routinely discriminated against. He did it all within the context of strong federalism. So, I suppose if you want to call trying to keep the country together wedge politics than I suppose he's guilty, but really, that's just one of another bold faced lies we've seen. The Liberals did cut money from EI, however, considering the budget deficits, something had to be done. This ugly theme raises it's head once again. It's easy to critique, but what was the NDP plan? To continue with deficit spending? Raise taxes more? That's an honest question, but one I don't expect a serious response to.

It is like you have no idea of any of the history of this stuff do you? Medicare was started on a federal level by the PCs so yes if the Liberals weren't in power it would have started because it start when they weren't in power. The Constitution started from the Bill of rights which again was a PC thing. Canadian surpluses in the 90s among other things were from the PCs GST which mind you the Liberals campaigned on scrapping. Seriously I am not saying when the Liberals touch something it turns to garbage I am saying that they were forced into a lot of what they did by other governments. I am glade those progressive policies were enacted but when you promise a national Health care plan from 1917 and only pass it after a provincial CCF and Federal Tories do all the heavy lifting it kinda no longer becomes your victory.

The "Constitution" which best part is the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was Tommy Douglas`s idea. That is why he passed the first bill of rights. That is why in the 50s he brought the idea up in a meeting of Premiers (mostly Liberals by the way) and he was shot down. Again it is great happened it is just to bad it happend 30 years after the CCF pushed for it but isn`t that really my point. Now I am not saying the NDP passed it because they didn`t I am saying if the Liberals and Conservatives had listened to the CCF we would have had 30 years sooner.

Yes I think if you are going to use EI was a tax then lets not pretend it is an insurance plan. I pay into it and I should be able to claim it but I can`t because the Liberals changed the rules mid game to get less claims so they could claim it as a tax. That is BS we both know it. If they want to have a payroll tax then do it but don`t call it Employment insurance when it doesn`t act like what it is at all. That is wrong and a Lie.

Yeah there was some terrible shit that went on during the war. Absolutely. However, that was also representative of Canada as a whole and not just it's leaders. There were Nazi race riots at Christie Pitts in downtown Toronto just before the war started. There were "No Jews Allowed" signs all over the city. It's terrible but we're all guilty of that sin, not just the Liberals. The problem with representative democracies is they tend to be representative - both good and bad.

Yah accept King was a rabid Anti-Semite. That is the problem nothing else. He was no Borden and lets not pretend he was. Lets not call him a great leader and use him as an example of a great Liberal. Maybe however he wasn't an Anti-Semite but just needed the voted of Anti-Semites I don't know which but either it is another example of the Liberals playing to the center all the wrong ways.

Yeah most of the stuff I mentioned happened under majority governments and as I mentioned, Pearson would've moved ahead with his agenda with a majority anyhow so this is just partisan non-sense.

I think that's crap but hey, I guess that's your opinion. Personally, I think that a Party can look out for both itself and the nation at the same time. I mean, if a party gets something done they can be proud of, why shouldn't they use it to their advantage? The NDP does it all the time even though federally the party really has accomplished next to nothing.

Speaking of which, where are all the super great things you claim the NDP did?

No the Majority of the things you claim happened over 40 years and to ignore that is to ignore the great progressive history of our country. But hey paint it red and call it Liberal doesn't make it true. Have fun with that one.

Edited January 31, 2011 by punked

[nicky10013]

It is like you have no idea of any of the history of this stuff do you? Medicare was started on a federal level by the PCs so yes if the Liberals weren't in power it would have started because it start when they weren't in power. The Constitution started from the Bill of rights which again was a PC this. Canadian surpluses in the 90s among other things were from the PCs GST which mind you the Liberals campaigned on scrapping. Seriously I am not saying when the Liberals touch something it turns to garbage I am saying that they were forced into a lot of what they did by other governments. I am glade those progressive policies were enacted by when you promise a national Health care plan from 1917 and only pass it after a provincial CCF and Federal Tories do all the heavy lifting it kinda no longer becomes your victory.

The NDP planned on scrapping the GST as well. Something you probably forgot. Considering that the NDP voted against a GST tax cut twice and you're accusing the LIBERALS of having an about face? Well, it just shows how crass and opportunistic you really are.

There were medicare programs that covered only certain things but it was moved to full universality by Pearson, so yeah, we wouldn't have what we do today if it wasn't for Pearson to say nothing of the fact that you have still yet to post anything from a governing record that makes them so much greater than the Liberal Party. It's all fine and good to say the Liberals didn't do the "heavy lifting" but fact is something else, no? What is "the heavy lifting" thinking up the idea or actually writing the policy and implementing it? Was it the NDP and the Tories who took the backlash from the industry? No, it was the government. So please, if you want to talk about historical accuracy, you might want to try it yourself.

The "Constitution" which best part is the Charter of Rights and Freedoms was Tommy Douglas`s idea. That is why he passed the first bill of rights. That is why in the 50s he brought the idea up in a meeting of Premiers (mostly Liberals by the way) and he was shot down. Again it is great happened it is just to bad it happend 30 years after the CCF pushed for it but isn`t that really my point. Now I am not saying the NDP passed it because they didn`t I am saying if the Liberals and Conservatives had listened to the CCF we would have had 30 years sooner.

Yeah, but they didn't.

Yes I think if you are going to use EI was a tax then lets not pretend it is an insurance plan. I pay into it and I should be able to claim it but I can`t because the Liberals changed the rules mid game to get less claims so they could claim it as a tax. That is BS we both know it. If they want to have a payroll tax then do it but don`t call it Employment insurance when it doesn`t act like what it is at all. That is wrong and a Lie.

I don't disagree but I still don't see the NDP alternative. You said you were willing to come on here and debate how the NDP record is so much better than the Liberal alternative. I've posted Liberal accomplishments. You've only attacked.

That is the problem nothing else.

In other words, history only matters if it supports my argument.

No the Majority of the things you claim happened over 40 years and to ignore that is to ignore the great progressive history of our country. But hey paint it red and call it Liberal doesn't make it true. Have fun with that one.

Well, 30 years ago. Considering you're still using the GST as a reason why the Liberals can't be trusted, which is nearly 20 years ago, I don't think you have any right to be bitching about how long ago a certain policy was introduced. So please, spare me your indignation.

That and trying desperately to rub the red paint off doesn't make it true, either.

Edited January 31, 2011 by nicky10013

[punked]

I don't have time to fix all your mistakes right now but I will respond to the first Healthcare program in Canada to cover all citizens and who took the backlash. Saskatchewan Medical Care Insurance Bill was passed 1961 lead to the hardest fight for health care for all citizens. It lead to a Doctors strike (which by the way the Liberals NEVER had to deal with) and some pretty nastiness in politics. Want to see where you Liberals stood on the issue?

The Liberals fight against Medicare

Who is that? It is the Liberal leader at a Medicare protest with the Doctors. Kicking at the door of the Leg leading to some violent acts by protesters. There are your guys fighting on the other side while the NDP does the heavy lifting.

Edited January 31, 2011 by punked

[GWiz]

This is the exact reason we need a Harper Tory majority in Canada. Harper has done a great job as PM in the last 5 years. NO hidden agenda in sight. Let's reward these Tories with a majority.

Harper is teaching us like a father would teach his children. Let us gather around at PM Harpers feet while he tells us a story of how to best beat back the socialist hoards at our gates. Let Harpers stories return Canada to a more simple time where each man and woman knew where they stood. We worked hard and were rewarded for it.

Speak to us PM, Canada is listening. We need your guidance like a child who misbehaves would. Canada is ready.

WooooOooo, Wooo, lock your doors folks the looneys have escaped the bin...

[GWiz]

Nope the point it is a part of measurement of GOOD GOVERNANCE. It is just one I mean we can list accomplishments and firsts which the NDP and CCF brought in Canada. OR we could talk about ideas and policy, we could look at GDP measures of NDP provinces, or standards of living all these are measurements. My point is you ignore the fact that the NDP has govern in Canada, and simple say "it is easy to talk when you never governed." That isn't the point they have govern and I would put their track record of progressive governments against the Liberals anyday. That is the point your argument is silly and wrong. Glade we can agree on that much, the NDP has a record and if you want to talk about it we can.

Nicky I don't think you get it. It isn't "Our shit don't stink" it is just that the Liberals is just so much worse. You got a record which you keep dismissing by saying "Well the NDP never....." well guess what they have and they did it better then the Liberals. Might be why the Liberals (as a progressive party) are whipped off the map west of Ontario eh? I am talking both provincial and Federal.

I guess you failed reading comprehension...

The CCF/NDP have brought NOTHING, ZERO, NADDA to Canada... They COULDN'T do anything but jabber, jabber, jabber, which is the ONLY thing they've ever "brought to Canada... Health care along with every other social program in Canada came into being by the GOVERNMENT of the day, you know the one that got the most votes and had the PRIME MINISTER at the head of it... It just so happens that Canadians, not NDPers, or Liberals, or Conservatives, WANTED and/or NEEDED these social programs and the GOVERNMENT, primarily Liberals, implemented them...

The CCF's Tommy Douglas brought Heath Care to Saskatchewan... Lester Pearson, a Liberal, brought health care to Canada based somewhat on Saskatchewan's system... Incidently it wasn't very popular in the beginning and it wasn't T.C. Douglas who paid the price (losing an election) it was Lester Pearson...

Here, read it and weep...

Between 1958 and 1968, citizens in every Canadian province debated the pros and cons of medical services insurance. At the heart of the debate was the question of the role of government in health care. Was it to be the sole funder and chief administrator? What role was there for the medical profession? For the private insurance companies? For Trans-Canada Medical Plans? In a society that was split between those who wanted to see governments extend the benefits of the welfare state to all citizens and those who viewed government support as equivalent to communism, the debate over medicare was destined to be headline news throughout the decade. Saskatchewan led the push for publicly administered and funded medical insurance, while Alberta and Ontario restricted public funding to support for the indigent and those on low incomes. Elsewhere, Quebec was focusing on the development of its own approach to health and social services, while the Atlantic provinces were deeply concerned about their ability to afford the human and financial costs of expanded health care services. And between 1962 and 1968, the national political scene saw a series of minority Progressive Conservative and Liberal governments led by John Diefenbaker and Lester Pearson grapple with the modernization of Canadian society. The debate about medicare was a key component of that process.

http://www.civilization.ca/cmc/exhibitions/hist/medicare/medic-5h01e.shtml

But the WORST of Health Care was that it brought Diefenbaker to power who in turn killed Canada's future as a major player in Aviation by scrapping the Avro Arrow project...

The CCF/NDP have done an awful lot to hurt Canada over the years, so if you're willing to be responsible for the bad as well as the good you can at least have some CREDIBILITY in what you post...

I think you should talk to Layton about the NDP paying for the Fighter Planes Canada has to buy... After all, the CCF/NDP are responsible for Canada having to buy Fighter Planes instead of selling them and getting rich from it...