Iggy flops [i]again[/i]

madmax · September 17, 2009

I was listening to Michael Savage, Lib., in the debates today, and he said that the Tories were the ones not debating in good faith on IE this summer

Does that surprise you? Nor were the LPC really trying to go anywhere with EI reform. Few trust the party that created the EI system we have today.

and that the Minister wasn't there , and she sent her parl sec.

Diane Finley doesn't work. Didn't you know that. She is the priviledged Elite. Much like Hubby, she is around for the perks. Life is good when you do so little and receive so much.

instead and every ideas they had was rejected and when they asked questions they minister sent word she didn't have to answer!

If the LPC had done any homework, they would have known about the Siti and EEITI programs that are to be expanded across the country. Because they didn't do their homework, and it took me all of 30 seconds Google it in June tells me this is merely posturing from incompetent people.

The Libs have shown that it wouldn't cost the 4 Bil. the Tories said it would and we all know that the Tories are trustworthy on what they say. I suggest that Canadians should watch more of these debates on C-Pac and that the Libs should hold a new conference of what really went down on these talks of EI this past summer.

$4 Billion dollars is the amount the CPC stole from the EI fund in a single year.

madmax · September 17, 2009

The recession ended in July/august. We are in the recovery stage now. It matter not how it was received.

Each week in my area, the layoffs continue. While some Auto has picked up, its likely to be short term, and then we are facing another slide downward in the economy. The layoffs are happening in non conventional, non industrial sectors and they aren't small. In a few months will see the effects of this.

Panick is starting to hit alot of municipalities that are watching their welfare rates soar, as EI isn't an option for many unemployed.

punked · September 17, 2009

Well if the bill is expedited the NDP will have no reason to continue supporting the CPC, yet strangely they will and no doubt find an even flimsier excuse to do so. Please explain how the CPC's plan is even remotely close to what the NDP were asking for. Like I said this isn't the least bit about principles and every bit about not being prepared for an election. Funny how Layton's tune changes when he doesn't have the LPC to take the fall for proping up the CPC.

Even if the bill is rushed you know we would be in a Christmas election if the trigger is pulled after the bill. I wouldn't be until mid October or early November until this is passed then we have wait for a vote to bring down the house. So that is it all she wrote.

madmax · September 17, 2009

Funny how Layton's tune changes when he doesn't have the LPC to take the fall for proping up the CPC.

If I have this right. The Liberals are supporting the EI bill through parliment? Thus, they have not yet, once voted against a government confidence motion.

Moonbox · September 17, 2009

Each week in my area, the layoffs continue. While some Auto has picked up, its likely to be short term, and then we are facing another slide downward in the economy. The layoffs are happening in non conventional, non industrial sectors and they aren't small. In a few months will see the effects of this.

I'm not sure I share your prediction. Aren't jobs lagging indicators in a recovery?

Panick is starting to hit alot of municipalities that are watching their welfare rates soar, as EI isn't an option for many unemployed.

For good reason.....

Keepitsimple · September 17, 2009

While Iggy is trying to be clever, more and more Canadians are watching him try to manipulate an election that more and more Canadians don't want. This move will only serve to further demonstrate his manic lust for power at any cost. He knows that it's all slipping through his fingers. It'll continue to show in the polls.

DrGreenthumb · September 17, 2009

Hey Dobbin where can I get a Liberal membership? I can't support an NDP that supports Harper.

Alta4ever · September 17, 2009

Hey Dobbin where can I get a Liberal membership? I can't support an NDP that supports Harper.

Wow! Have you forgotten all the times the liberals have supported the Conservatives. Are yuo sure they won't do it again, oh wait they are tomorrow, they are going to let the Home renovation tax credit go through and wait yep the libs are bending on the EI reform as well, better find out were you can get a bloc....never mind Gile has stated he will support the government too, better buy a green membership, while they still exist before May sinks them.

Goat Boy© · September 17, 2009

Each week in my area, the layoffs continue. While some Auto has picked up, its likely to be short term, and then we are facing another slide downward in the economy. The layoffs are happening in non conventional, non industrial sectors and they aren't small. In a few months will see the effects of this.
Panick is starting to hit alot of municipalities that are watching their welfare rates soar, as EI isn't an option for many unemployed.

One could also make a strong argument that the Van & potentially TO housing bubbles have not yet burst.

Goat Boy© · September 17, 2009

Wow! Have you forgotten all the times the liberals have supported the Conservatives. Are yuo sure they won't do it again, oh wait they are tomorrow, they are going to let the Home renovation tax credit go through and wait yep the libs are bending on the EI reform as well, better find out were you can get a bloc....never mind Gile has stated he will support the government too, better buy a green membership, while they still exist before May sinks them.

+1

jdobbin · September 17, 2009

While Iggy is trying to be clever, more and more Canadians are watching him try to manipulate an election that more and more Canadians don't want. This move will only serve to further demonstrate his manic lust for power at any cost. He knows that it's all slipping through his fingers. It'll continue to show in the polls.

Manic lust? Is that the same thing as mad dog sociopath?

At the moment, the NDP are in the same position as they put the Liberals in which is that support for the government rests in their hands.

No sense giving the Tories an issue about how Liberals in the Senate are blocking legislation. It is my view that the NDP and Bloc may have jumped on that as well. Now, it won't be an issue.

And when a confidence vote comes up, the NDP will to vote up or down accordingly.

Keepitsimple · September 18, 2009

Manic lust? Is that the same thing as mad dog sociopath?
At the moment, the NDP are in the same position as they put the Liberals in which is that support for the government rests in their hands.

No sense giving the Tories an issue about how Liberals in the Senate are blocking legislation. It is my view that the NDP and Bloc may have jumped on that as well. Now, it won't be an issue.

And when a confidence vote comes up, the NDP will to vote up or down accordingly.

Not quite....but let's call it a draw anyway....I got a little carried away.

All I'm saying is that putting the strategies aside, the average Canadian cannot help but see that the Liberals are doing all they can to instigate an election - one that is clearly not wanted by the electorate.....and they will pay if there is indeed an election.....and if it's delayed until next year, people will still remember. I don't really think it matters if the NDP votes up or down. If they vote with the Cons, Canadians will be thankful. The only whiners will be diehard Harper-haters and those who know that Ignatieff's opportunity is slipping away. If they vote against, it's the Liberals who instigated the election. Either way, the Conservatives are on high ground, steering the economy, and plausibly making Parliament work.

jdobbin · September 18, 2009

All I'm saying is that putting the strategies aside, the average Canadian cannot help but see that the Liberals are doing all they can to instigate an election - one that is clearly not wanted by the electorate.....

They also didn't seem to like the Liberals supporting the Tories every time as it made them appear weak. Or do you disagree?

The short term damage of saying no, will likely help the party break from this pattern.

The At Issue panel, not one for touting Liberal anything, said that Layton is the one who is in a weakened position now.

and they will pay if there is indeed an election.....and if it's delayed until next year, people will still remember.

Except if Harper calls it and then it is brilliant, simply brilliant!! Right?

This is what I see happening and Harper will blame everyone else for his breaking of the term limits... again. And Tory supporters will contort to blame everyone but themselves for not letting the government fall on confidence.

I don't really think it matters if the NDP votes up or down. If they vote with the Cons, Canadians will be thankful. The only whiners will be diehard Harper-haters and those who know that Ignatieff's opportunity is slipping away. If they vote against, it's the Liberals who instigated the election. Either way, the Conservatives are on high ground, steering the economy, and plausibly making Parliament work.

There was no thankfulness for the Liberals not voting down the Tories from 2006 to 2008. The Liberals were weakened for the stance. The polls certainly showed that.

madmax · September 18, 2009

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Edited September 18, 2009 by madmax

Goat Boy© · September 18, 2009

They also didn't seem to like the Liberals supporting the Tories every time as it made them appear weak. Or do you disagree?
The short term damage of saying no, will likely help the party break from this pattern.

The At Issue panel, not one for touting Liberal anything, said that Layton is the one who is in a weakened position now.

I would say until the Liberal platform diverges noticeably from the Conservative one, the Liberals will remain in something of quagmire. I would also say that it is being handled rather poorly, I mean regardless of motivation which I won't attempt to speculate on, doing things like voting against the home renovation just plain looks bad.

Except if Harper calls it and then it is brilliant, simply brilliant!! Right?
This is what I see happening and Harper will blame everyone else for his breaking of the term limits... again. And Tory supporters will contort to blame everyone but themselves for not letting the government fall on confidence.

I see no difference Harper's personal election, and Ignatieff's attempt at one. Only real thing is the proximity to the previous election, which really isn't all that different. Why not give Iggy his chance? I don't have a problem with that.

I also think that the comment of Tory supporters is something of a prejudiced blanket statement. Based on polls, I would offer that their is a large contingent of supporters flip-flopping back and forth between the two parties, not altogether too many die-hard's in either party. Be interesting to see come election time if this holds true.

http://www.sfu.ca/~aheard/elections/polls-2008-9-mov-avg.jpg

OddSox · September 18, 2009

I also think that the comment of Tory supporters is something of a prejudiced blanket statement. Based on polls, I would offer that their is a large contingent of supporters flip-flopping back and forth between the two parties, not altogether too many die-hard's in either party. Be interesting to see come election time if this holds true.
http://www.sfu.ca/~aheard/elections/polls-2008-9-mov-avg.jpg

Interesting. However, there does appear to be a definite trend since the end of July - and another poll this morning put the Tories at 39% again...

Goat Boy© · September 18, 2009

Interesting. However, there does appear to be a definite trend since the end of July - and another poll this morning put the Tories at 39% again...

I shouldn't think that will offer much difference when it comes to seat selection. We've been down that road before. Guess it depends on the distribution of the population polled, Ontario is what really matters correct? The Bloc was up in Quebec, Liberals down & Conservative relatively the same in Quebec were they not?

fellowtraveller · September 21, 2009

They also didn't seem to like the Liberals supporting the Tories every time as it made them appear weak.

Yep, Ignatieff had to break the longstanding pattern of whining about the Tories in front of the cameras while voting for them in the Commons. It had become a Liberal tradition,eating a steady diet of turd sandwiches served up by Harper.

Now the NDP have been obliged to pull a chair up to the table.

Same old menu, prepared by the same chef, served to a new diner.

jdobbin · September 21, 2009

Yep, Ignatieff had to break the longstanding pattern of whining about the Tories in front of the cameras while voting for them in the Commons. It had become a Liberal tradition,eating a steady diet of turd sandwiches served up by Harper.

Think Harper knows what the sandwich tastes like.

It is why he signed agreements with the Bloc and NDP to take down the government himself.

Now the NDP have been obliged to pull a chair up to the table.
Same old menu, prepared by the same chef, served to a new diner.

As I said, Harper enjoyed a nice meal of turd himself at one time.

The problem with take it or leave it politics is that at some point, the person making those decisions can turn off the electorate just as much as those calling for an election.

jdobbin · September 21, 2009

I would say until the Liberal platform diverges noticeably from the Conservative one, the Liberals will remain in something of quagmire. I would also say that it is being handled rather poorly, I mean regardless of motivation which I won't attempt to speculate on, doing things like voting against the home renovation just plain looks bad.

There is plenty of legislation to doesn't make it all the way to an election even when it is a fixed election. It is why implementation laws are introduced so that legislation every one already approved continues with the next session.

If you take the attitude that the Liberals are voting against the legislation, then you have to take the same attitude to the Tories when they called the last snap election when they left a number of bills in progress, essentially ending them.

As far as policy goes, Ignatieff will do doubt be making some of the differences clear as the session goes on. However, I doubt that an entire election platform will be revealed when no other party does that between elections.

The first step was to ensure that the other parties had no more free rides. Now the Liberals can make amendments to bills that might even make them better as a way of contrasting the parties. The NDP and Bloc will have to decide whether they will support those bills and the Tories will have to decide whether they want a confidence measure on each piece of legislation.

If the Tories do want to do that, then it is they who will be looked as wanting an election.

I see no difference Harper's personal election, and Ignatieff's attempt at one. Only real thing is the proximity to the previous election, which really isn't all that different. Why not give Iggy his chance? I don't have a problem with that.

At the moment, it is now in Layton's hands.

kimmy · September 21, 2009

While Iggy is trying to be clever, more and more Canadians are watching him try to manipulate an election that more and more Canadians don't want.

Indeed. A transparent attempt at getting the NDP to withdraw their support and force an election. If it works, there's no question who has brought Canadians to the polls.

I don't see that this actually works, though. Layton finally has something he can sell to his supporters. "We got Stephen Harper to make changes to EI that working Canadians blah blah, blah blah blah... and we will work with the government again to get them to implement policy that works for working Canadians blah blah, blah blah blah"

This is what NDP supporters have always said was the reason to send NDP MPs to parliament despite the fact that they'll never form a government. If Layton is shrewd, he could work the situation to produce a bit of a resume of stuff that he can show voters in the next election. If I was in his situation, I'd be brainstorming to find something else that I could compromise with Harper on.

And, it doesn't hurt Harper at all to help Layton build up the NDP a little. If Layton increases his support, it's not going to come at the expense of Conservatives, it'll come from Green and Liberal voters. If I was in Harper's situation, I would be brainstorming on things that I could offer the NDP without alienating my own base.

-k

jdobbin · September 21, 2009

Indeed. A transparent attempt at getting the NDP to withdraw their support and force an election. If it works, there's no question who has brought Canadians to the polls.

Many labour people are already dismissing the deal as not helping them. They don't need any help from the Liberals in finding problems with it.

I don't see that this actually works, though. Layton finally has something he can sell to his supporters. "We got Stephen Harper to make changes to EI that working Canadians blah blah, blah blah blah... and we will work with the government again to get them to implement policy that works for working Canadians blah blah, blah blah blah"

How did Layton score this deal? Was it offered during their meeting? Do Layton get a response to his email about working together?

Harper made the changes when the Liberals expressed no confidence as a way to say they were working to make Parliament work.

Layton has grasped hold of this ring because they are just not as ready as the other parties to go to an election.

This is what NDP supporters have always said was the reason to send NDP MPs to parliament despite the fact that they'll never form a government. If Layton is shrewd, he could work the situation to produce a bit of a resume of stuff that he can show voters in the next election. If I was in his situation, I'd be brainstorming to find something else that I could compromise with Harper on.

Where was the compromise this time? Harper said take it or leave it. It is the same kick in the balls approach that has been used in the past.

And, it doesn't hurt Harper at all to help Layton build up the NDP a little. If Layton increases his support, it's not going to come at the expense of Conservatives, it'll come from Green and Liberal voters. If I was in Harper's situation, I would be brainstorming on things that I could offer the NDP without alienating my own base.

I don't see Harper doing any communicating or appearing to be be communicating with Layton or he runs the risk of actually looking like he as a coalition.

Keepitsimple · September 21, 2009

Mr. Ignatieff just rubs me the wrong way with his arrogant, continuous use of "I" - Canadians have a lot more humility and I'm sure I'm not the only one that sees this troubling personality trait.

We have a very, very serious problem with this relationship and I don't think I'm going to be able to fix it until I become the prime minister."

Link: http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2009...024131-sun.html

jdobbin · September 21, 2009

Mr. Ignatieff just rubs me the wrong way with his arrogant, continuous use of "I" - Canadians have a lot more humility and I'm sure I'm not the only one that sees this troubling personality trait.

Funny, some people think that Harper has the same trait.

Keepitsimple · September 21, 2009

Funny, some people think that Harper has the same trait.

They'd be wrong.....it's the Party that does the work. He'll offer opinions about what he thinks but it's always "we" when it comes to doing things. Harper is a longtime Conservative who has invested his life in resurrecting the Party. Mr. Ignatieff is a newcomer to politics and has not been able to leave behind his egocentric views and being the smartest man in the room. It's not really his fault - that's just the way he is - and I don't think Canadians are warming to that part of his character.