Immigration, baby boomers & 'making whoopie.'

[Wilber]

We need immigrants but the way we do it is flawed. We bring in a nice young couple who will contribute to the economy. Our policy then allows them to bring over their parents. Very humane. We then wind up with two contributors and four retirees. Nuts.

[Hydraboss]

We need immigrants but the way we do it is flawed. We bring in a nice young couple who will contribute to the economy. Our policy then allows them to bring over their parents. Very humane. We then wind up with two contributors and four retirees. Nuts.

Thank you for the (thankfully clear) math lesson. Why do more people not understand this?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Most cultures take care of their parents when they get old. That is why they inherit, they literally pay for it! Our however is a little different and we like the idea of the government being a nanny state.

[M.Dancer]

Watch the movie, Fall of the Roman Empire. .

The bankruptcy of intellect is evident when someone claims to know about the workings of Rome by watching a movie.

That is one rung above an impassioned youtube video...

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The bankruptcy of intellect is evident when someone claims to know about the workings of Rome by watching a movie.

That is one rung above an impassioned youtube video...

A two point response!

[M.Dancer]

And I'm telling you that the Edict of Milan made every freeman in the Empire a Citizen. Rome's chief problem came to be the unhealthy reliance on the army to hold the borders of the Empire, and that military's unwholesome influence on the Roman government. Becoming Christian did not solve that problem, indeed it marked the final decline of the West.

Now I'm not sure if it has been made into a movie or is available on youtube.....Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire lists a number of causes....certainly the use of non citizen soldiers is high on that list. Also was the systen of taxation which relied on tax farmers which had the effect of sapping the loyalty of those who had the most to gain from a united empire. Gibbon's also makes another suggestion for which he got a lot of flack.

He suggests that Christianity had an effiminating effect on what was once was martial people...people unashamed by their brutality to the vanquished and their willingness to sacrifice for the state and family. Instead they became more concerned with prayer and devotions.

[Argus]

He suggests that Christianity had an effiminating effect on what was once was martial people...people unashamed by their brutality to the vanquished and their willingness to sacrifice for the state and family. Instead they became more concerned with prayer and devotions.

I don't think so. I think it is luxury, it is wealth which brings about comfort and thus a certain reluctance to endure hardships. You know, I was surfing my satellite TV the other day, and came across some travel show where the guy was driving across Russia. Outside the likes of Moscow, it struck me, the people are probably about the least sophsiticated White people on Earth. They're very religious orthodox Catholics - or sometimes Muslims, but boy, they are some tough, nasty bastards. They are used to hardships (by our standards) and shrug them off. Life is hard for most of them and they'ce become hard men. The fact they're more religious than us is beside the point. Put these guys up against a bunch of 'efeminate" office workers from downtown Toronto in any kind of physical combat and there'd really be no contest.

Another example, the hard core shock troops of the British empire were rarely English. They tended to be Scots and Irish. Why? Those people were as religious if not much more so than the English, but life was harder, harsher, and those were very hard and rough men. The French, a much more civilized people, got their asses kicked regularly by the British, even though they invariably outnumbered them.

Edited September 29, 2009 by Argus

[M.Dancer]

I don't think so. I think it is luxury, it is wealth which brings about comfort and thus a certain reluctance to endure hardships.

The Romans had great wealth, luxury and comfort far prior to the adoption of Christianity so that alone could not be a cause. They also had prisoners of war sacrificed to Mars, gladiatorial games, crucifixtions and lions devouring the condemned. The point Gibbon made is that Christianity by ending the blood sports the Romans saw daily, they eliminated the brutality they needed to be ruthless. A young man who would rather meditate on the martyrdom of St Stephan rather than eviscerate a Goth makes poor Imperial Storm Trooper.

[ToadBrother]

Now I'm not sure if it has been made into a movie or is available on youtube.....Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire lists a number of causes....certainly the use of non citizen soldiers is high on that list. Also was the systen of taxation which relied on tax farmers which had the effect of sapping the loyalty of those who had the most to gain from a united empire. Gibbon's also makes another suggestion for which he got a lot of flack.

Rome had little choice but to start using neighboring and conquered tribes in its army. Rome came under near constant assault by the 4th century from the Huns and just about everyone the Huns displaced. It was a fight Rome simply could not win. If they hadn't, the invaders would have toppled them utterly.

But the army had become too huge, and the long tradition of Emperors being named by the army reached a degree where rival army factions would be trying to put forth their own candidates. The order and stability that the early Emperors had been able to deliver was compromised. There was also debasement of coinage, necessary to pay these armies, and that lead to huge inflationary pressures which also undermined the Roman state. You had a few clever emperors like Diocletian (who, ironically, left his biggest mark on the Latin Church, despite the fact that he loathed Christianity) and Constantine, but even by Constantine's reign, Rome was in serious decline, but I'll finish that thought below.

He suggests that Christianity had an effiminating effect on what was once was martial people...people unashamed by their brutality to the vanquished and their willingness to sacrifice for the state and family. Instead they became more concerned with prayer and devotions.

I don't really buy that, because Constantine's conversion of Rome to a Christian Empire certainly didn't stop the destructive vying for power, and the unstoppable meddling of the military classes in the governing structure.

I think accusing Christianity of being a factor in Rome's collapse is a good example of confusing correlation with causation. As i said above, by the time Constantine removed all legal constraints against Christianity and effectively made it the state religion, Rome was already on a downward trajectory. That spiral downwards was of course to be greatly accelerated by the barbarian invasions, but I don't think you can blame Christianity.

[whowhere]

A two point response!

The Roman slave supply

http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf (Princeton University)

You may want try getting an education. Rome was an imperial power that invaded new territories, extracted their wealth and made slaves out of the people. Rome existed for a 1000 years. Aside of Ancient Egypt what other Empire reigned that long.

You and dancer may want to write princeton to tell them you know better about Roman history than they do.

[whowhere]

The French, a much more civilized people, got their asses kicked regularly by the British, even though they invariably outnumbered them.

Really?? Easy for those bias towards the British to make that assertion. The British hid on an island surrounded by rough seas. You should really read history. France dominated Europe, that's a fact. France became an empire of Europe, did Britain?

[whowhere]

That spiral downwards was of course to be greatly accelerated by the barbarian invasions, but I don't think you can blame Christianity.

Rome collapsed because it became weak and began seeing everyone as equal citizens and the Christian cancer infected Rome to the point of decline. Rome has to be looked at before citizen equality and the christian disease.

[OddSox]

Wow, just saw this thread. Missed something. What does the Roman Empire have to do with 'making whoopie', or do I just not want to know?

[bush_cheney2004]

Wow, just saw this thread. Missed something. What does the Roman Empire have to do with 'making whoopie', or do I just not want to know?

Caligula ?

[M.Dancer]

The Roman slave supply

http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf (Princeton University)

You may want try getting an education. Rome was an imperial power that invaded new territories, extracted their wealth and made slaves out of the people. Rome existed for a 1000 years. Aside of Ancient Egypt what other Empire reigned that long.

You and dancer may want to write princeton to tell them you know better about Roman history than they do.

10 to 1 he didn't read it

The Roman empure didn't exist for 1000 years....the only empire that has existed that long was Japan.

[ToadBrother]

The Roman slave supply

http://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/050704.pdf (Princeton University)

You may want try getting an education. Rome was an imperial power that invaded new territories, extracted their wealth and made slaves out of the people. Rome existed for a 1000 years. Aside of Ancient Egypt what other Empire reigned that long.

You and dancer may want to write princeton to tell them you know better about Roman history than they do.

No one is denying that Rome invaded new territories, but the slavery issue is under contestment. Rome kept slaves, but most certainly did not enslave all the populations it conquered. Rome's real strategy, as can be seen in Gaul and England, was to Romanicize the population. I'll wager you never heard of the Edict of Milan until a few days ago.

And no, Rome did not exist as an Imperial power for a thousand years. A liberal (and I mean liberal) reading could give you a figure close to 700, maybe a little bit longer if you count the annexing of the Italian Peninsula.

[ToadBrother]

Rome collapsed because it became weak and began seeing everyone as equal citizens

It became weak because it required a vast army to maintain its possessions, and got hit head on by tribes being displaced by invaders out of the Asian Steppe, in particular the Huns.

and the Christian cancer infected Rome to the point of decline.

The Christian cancer?

Rome has to be looked at before citizen equality and the christian disease.

I have no idea what you're saying. Are you actually trying to claim that if we got rid of equality and Christianity, that Canada would be a great place?

[whowhere]

I have no idea what you're saying. Are you actually trying to claim that if we got rid of equality and Christianity, that Canada would be a great place?

Look around, Listen to the Media. It's no longer Merry Christmas but Happy Holidays. It's no longer the Christmas Tree but the Holiday tree. Go to Toronto English and French is being replaced by Chinese. Canada is sellout decrepit country.

How often have you heard Jesus died for your sins so go ahead and sin all you want and all is forgiven. Believe in nothing, do nothing, but believe in Jesus and go to straight to heaven.

Canada has tried to reinvent itself as multicultural, multi-religion. Congrats to the Liberals and Conservative for ruining Canada.

Jesus knew all the stories of the Old Testament as they were circulating around 300 years before his death. It took another 300 years for the Christian machine to get up and running. Once Running It took 1500 years to bring it down. Now Christians are ankle biting the world with their doomsday BS. They are obsessed with the end of the world.

I have no problem including the New Testament with the Old Testament although they are a contradiction. The old Testament was about God's pursuit to build a synagoge and for the children of Isreal to follow his ways. Every prophet throughout the old testament was a cry for the Children of Isreal to do that. All of a sudden Jesus comes along and says, It was a joke pay no mind to that, and believe in me, blah blah blah.

Whatever, believe what you want. That is not excuse to support the sellout of Canada at Canada's future generations expense. Because the boomers and their parents decided to play God with their children and great Grandchildren there has to be only one outcome for them. Into the furnace to be obliterated as inferred by Mathew 10:28.

They deserve this for bringing in the mulit religious Immigrants (hindu, budhist, Satanists, etc, etc) they did throughout the nineties. They deserve this for not having confidence in Canada's colleges and Universities to move Canada forward. They chose to turn to other Countries people. Doing this has taken opportunities away from Canadians and has put Canada where it is today.

God led the Children of Isreal through the wilderness for 40 years before building his temple. Many of them never made it. So that said, I doubt the Boomer's parents, the Boomers, and and hey throw in their children too. will ever see the light of day again.

Life is moving on without the Christians, like it or not.

[ToadBrother]

Look around, Listen to the Media. It's no longer Merry Christmas but Happy Holidays. It's no longer the Christmas Tree but the Holiday tree. Go to Toronto English and French is being replaced by Chinese. Canada is sellout decrepit country.

How often have you heard Jesus died for your sins so go ahead and sin all you want and all is forgiven. Believe in nothing, do nothing, but believe in Jesus and go to straight to heaven.

Canada has tried to reinvent itself as multicultural, multi-religion. Congrats to the Liberals and Conservative for ruining Canada.

Jesus knew all the stories of the Old Testament as they were circulating around 300 years before his death. It took another 300 years for the Christian machine to get up and running. Once Running It took 1500 years to bring it down. Now Christians are ankle biting the world with their doomsday BS. They are obsessed with the end of the world.

I have no problem including the New Testament with the Old Testament although they are a contradiction. The old Testament was about God's pursuit to build a synagoge and for the children of Isreal to follow his ways. Every prophet throughout the old testament was a cry for the Children of Isreal to do that. All of a sudden Jesus comes along and says, It was a joke pay no mind to that, and believe in me, blah blah blah.

Whatever, believe what you want. That is not excuse to support the sellout of Canada at Canada's future generations expense. Because the boomers and their parents decided to play God with their children and great Grandchildren there has to be only one outcome for them. Into the furnace to be obliterated as inferred by Mathew 10:28.

They deserve this for bringing in the mulit religious Immigrants (hindu, budhist, Satanists, etc, etc) they did throughout the nineties. They deserve this for not having confidence in Canada's colleges and Universities to move Canada forward. They chose to turn to other Countries people. Doing this has taken opportunities away from Canadians and has put Canada where it is today.

God led the Children of Isreal through the wilderness for 40 years before building his temple. Many of them never made it. So that said, I doubt the Boomer's parents, the Boomers, and and hey throw in their children too. will ever see the light of day again.

Life is moving on without the Christians, like it or not.

Translation: Believe whatever you want, but pretend to be a Christian, because Christians are the best, and being a Buddhist or a Hindu or anything else weakens Canada. Oh yeah, and I guess it's okay to be a Jew.

You bigots and religious kooks never change. You've been railing against the Enlightenment for three centuries, because fundamentally you don't believe anyone should have any right that goes against your narrow beliefs.

I'm proud to live in a country where guys like you live at the margins, where someone can be a Jew or a Buddhist or whatever the hell they like, and they don't owe you an explanation or the time of day.

[Wilber]

Would the Roman Empire have lasted as long as it did if it hadn't made citizens of the people it had conquered? It was a city state and there was no way it could maintain control of most of the known world with only its own population under arms. That its empire lasted 500 years is quite remarkable.

The British faced a similar quandary. At the height of empire its population was 30 million. There is no way they could have controlled a third of the world without engaging the support of local populations and even at that it was not sustainable. It was a freak of history that it happened at all.

[ToadBrother]

Would the Roman Empire have lasted as long as it did if it hadn't made citizens of the people it had conquered? It was a city state and there was no way it could maintain control of most of the known world with only its own population under arms. That its empire lasted 500 years is quite remarkable.

The book is being somewhat rewritten on Rome's fall. As our knowledge of the Asian Steppe in the first centuries AD increases, we're beginning to see that a lot of what happened to Rome started far to the East. Simply put the great migrations from the Asian Steppe not only caused major dislocation in Europe and Asia Minor, but in China and Southeast Asia as well. The Huns were but the vanguard of a number of waves of Asian invaders that culminated in the Mongols and the Turks. These dislocations forced the Germanic tribes, which were the immediate cause of Rome's decline (both as opponents and as uneasy allies). Rome's military budget had always been enormous, but by the end of the third century it was skyrocketing beyond all measure. Rome did not have a modern capitalist economy that could absorb such expenditures, it's economy was something of a mixture of Classical monetary system with some admixtures of what later become Medieval mercantilism. All sorts of ill effects of these vast expenditures began to trash the underlying foundation of the Empire; the Emperors in many cases became effectively puppets of the armies and the Praetorian Guard, the coinage was debased, leading to inflation, finding enough troops became impossible, so they started letting the German tribes in, and the loyalty of these groups were highly questionable.

The British faced a similar quandary. At the height of empire its population was 30 million. There is no way they could have controlled a third of the world without engaging the support of local populations and even at that it was not sustainable. It was a freak of history that it happened at all.

I think you have a point. Empires simply do not have long lifespans. The Chinese Empire is the longest lasting, but was really a series of empires, with periods of contraction and division, and in later periods, unity under foreign rulers. The Byzantine Empire lasted a thousand years, but the last three centuries were one prolonged death spasm. The Holy Roman Empire lasted about 900 years (or nearly 1100 if you count the Carolingian Empire), but by the 16th century, the religious wars had decimated it, and Napoleon simply put the capstone on it.

[whowhere]

The book is being somewhat rewritten on Rome's fall. As our knowledge of the Asian Steppe in the first centuries AD increases, we're beginning to see that a lot of what happened to Rome started far to the East. Simply put the great migrations from the Asian Steppe not only caused major dislocation in Europe and Asia Minor, but in China and Southeast Asia as well. The Huns were but the vanguard of a number of waves of Asian invaders that culminated in the Mongols and the Turks. These dislocations forced the Germanic tribes, which were the immediate cause of Rome's decline (both as opponents and as uneasy allies). Rome's military budget had always been enormous, but by the end of the third century it was skyrocketing beyond all measure. Rome did not have a modern capitalist economy that could absorb such expenditures, it's economy was something of a mixture of Classical monetary system with some admixtures of what later become Medieval mercantilism. All sorts of ill effects of these vast expenditures began to trash the underlying foundation of the Empire; the Emperors in many cases became effectively puppets of the armies and the Praetorian Guard, the coinage was debased, leading to inflation, finding enough troops became impossible, so they started letting the German tribes in, and the loyalty of these groups were highly questionable.

Your suggesting Rome didn't have what it took to fend off the Asians? Because of this threat from Asia Rome had to resort to enlisting the help of the Germanic Tribes to shield itself from the Asians? Rightttttttt.................Rome Collapsed because it no longer gripped the minds of its people. Why? two fold Rome made everyone citizens so it made being Roman of no more value than trying to sell air or dirt to your neighbors. Number #2 Christianity that infected the lower classes began to grip Rome. In a move to regripped the populace the Roman Rulers embraced Christianity which put the final nail in the coffin.

Christianity was as much Imperial as old Rome. They burned books and crushed anyone with contrary views to the rising Christian machine. How many lives were lost because of Christian missionaries. Thanks to US Independence and Napoleon, North America and Europe is No longer held hostage to Satan's Religion.

I think you have a point. Empires simply do not have long lifespans. The Chinese Empire is the longest lasting, but was really a series of empires, with periods of contraction and division, and in later periods, unity under foreign rulers. The Byzantine Empire lasted a thousand years, but the last three centuries were one prolonged death spasm. The Holy Roman Empire lasted about 900 years (or nearly 1100 if you count the Carolingian Empire), but by the 16th century, the religious wars had decimated it, and Napoleon simply put the capstone on it.

China an Empire??? Right.... Building a wall around your land then proceding to dominate the regions within is not an empire but pyschosis and insanity. Basically, the world could have put up loungers around the Great wall and watch the Chinese canobilize each other. Interestingly, the Reason the Chinese built the Great Wall is because they feared Genghas Khan a mongolian, who was not chinese. Genghas Khan created an empire which has zero to do with the chinese. So out of fear the chinese hid behind their wall. If any Asian Countries were Imperial that would be the Japanese. At times over their history they have occupied and dominated other regions. Today Japan no longer occupies other regions they do it by taking advantage of other regions through their multi national corporations. Two countries with large corporate presence around the world is the US and Japan.

Contrary to what you want to believe Rome used Slaves as a way of life.

http://www.richeast.org/htwm/Greeks/Romans...y/slavery2.html

Many Romans had slaves do their dirty and hard work for them. These slaves were bought and sold in the slave markets. Some slaves were soldiers who had been captured in wars, while others were the children of slave parents. If they tried to run away, they were whipped, burned with iron, and sometimes even killed. Slavery, was accepted as part of life in ancient Rome by the slaves themselves and by the society.

Am I advocating Slavery no? But when I see there are those on Mapleleafweb who are eager to roll out the Red Carpet to other Countries people by giving them Canadians rightful employment and depriving Canadians valued work experience required to elevate them along their Career paths I have a problem with that.

The God portrayed in the Old Testament does not endorse that way of thinking nor does Europe's Roman Roots. Canada's government decision makers has zero to stand on in their policy efforts to put outsiders above Canadians. Doing this offends Canadians, It offends the Judeo Christian Doctrine, and It offends Roman principals.

Immigrants are entitled to nothing. They don't like it, leave.