Where are the Femenists?

[lictor616]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/1...ens-rights-rape

“Afghanistan has quietly passed a law permitting Shia men to deny their wives food and sustenance if they refuse to obey their husbands’ sexual demands, despite international outrage over an earlier version of the legislation which President Hamid Karzai had promised to review.

The new final draft of the legislation also grants guardianship of children exclusively to their fathers and grandfathers, and requires women to get permission from their husbands to work.

“It also effectively allows a rapist to avoid prosecution by paying ‘blood money’ to a girl who was injured when he raped her,” the US charity Human Rights Watch said.”

–snip–

You know, it strikes me as the most disquieting of phenomena that I NEVER EVER HEAR feminists speak against such infamies... As an undergrad, I have the distinct displeasure of being around large amounts of cackling red guard feminists, who are usually so loud, and so quick to vocalize their hatred of western civilization (the only civilization where they are tolerated) every chance they get...

So, as news of the appalling miseries of women in the Islamic world has piled up, where are the feminists? Where’s the outrage?

Curious, I decided to prod into the newsletters and dispatches of "REAL women of canada" http://www.realwomenca.com/home.html

And as I expected... nothing condemning specific Islamic acts of violence, nothing about Somali FGM, not a word about stoning even!

How astonishing is that!!

instead, we get hand wringing newsletters asking people to be tolerant of religion.. going so far as tarring the UN, saying that it isn't tolerent enough of Islam and religion in general.

"The UN Declaration on Human Rights provides that everyone has the right to ‘freedom of thought, conscience and religion’. However, believe it or not, the United Nations is trying to screen our thoughts and faith-based beliefs, and even to change them."

(http://www.realwomenca.com/index.cfm?page=280&string=islam)

The savagery of some of these Islamic tortures and murders is worth a moment’s pause. We all heard of one or another of the varied stonings that are reported (albeit reluctantly) by the mass media http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rgSH0h45Eo

In 2000, two Punjabi sisters, 20 and 21 years old, had their throats slit by their brother and cousin because the girls were seen talking to two boys to whom they were not related.

According to Iranian and foreign press, Zhila Izadi, a 13 year old girl from the north-western city of Marivan had been condemned to death by stoning after being found that she had been pregnant from her 15 years-old brother.(http://www.iran-press-service.com/ips/articles-2004/october/izadi_161004.shtml)

I remember taking sociology as an elective once, predictably they didn't teach sociology as much as they did radical marxism (making sure to put the Marxist slant on everything) we had to read papers with titles such as "Why feminist, Marxist, and anti-racist economists should be feminist-Marxist-anti-racist economists" http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/content~d...tent=a738552684

but we never spoke of the Lebanese rapes of Australia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes, or the growing phenomenon of muslim rapes in such nations as Sweden, Finland and Germany...

http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http...sa%3DN%26um%3D1

Where are the feminists? I know of a few here that usually defend muslims, and usually root for the non-western side of ANY issue... Why don't I ever hear them complain about what terrors their "sisters" have to endure in Islamic countries?

Edited September 5, 2009 by lictor616

[lictor616]

Pat Condell has a video out denouncing this very phenomena... I'm in complete agreement with him here:

[kimmy]

You know, it strikes me as the most disquieting of phenomena that I NEVER EVER HEAR feminists speak against such infamies... As an undergrad, I have the distinct displeasure of being around large amounts of cackling red guard feminists, who are usually so loud, and so quick to vocalize their hatred of western civilization (the only civilization where they are tolerated) every chance they get...

So, as news of the appalling miseries of women in the Islamic world has piled up, where are the feminists? Where’s the outrage?

You heard feminists speak about it the last time Afghanistan tried to pass such an outrage; I have no idea how it got through with no publicity this time.

Feminists speak about this sort of outrage often. Usually the reaction is quite muted, however: often times the people who would be carrying the torch on something like this are also committed to patronizing brown-people and to making excuses for religious idiots.

So I guess I agree with the gist of what you're saying. The forces of political correctness are often thrown into a quandary whenever third-world brown-people do something stupid.

Curious, I decided to prod into the newsletters and dispatches of "REAL women of canada" http://www.realwomenca.com/home.html

And as I expected... nothing condemning specific Islamic acts of violence, nothing about Somali FGM, not a word about stoning even!

How astonishing is that!!

instead, we get hand wringing newsletters asking people to be tolerant of religion.. going so far as tarring the UN, saying that it isn't tolerent enough of Islam and religion in general.

"The UN Declaration on Human Rights provides that everyone has the right to ‘freedom of thought, conscience and religion’. However, believe it or not, the United Nations is trying to screen our thoughts and faith-based beliefs, and even to change them."

(http://www.realwomenca.com/index.cfm?page=280&string=islam)

Let me stop you there, however.

Presenting "REAL Women" as a representative of what Canadian feminists are saying is a huge mistake.

They're a group of cranky old church-ladies fighting for womens' right to get out of the workforce and get back in the kitchen.

Why are they sticking up for the Muslims? Because in the clash between women and religion, R.E.A.L. Women figure the Muslims are on Team Jeeeezus.

-k

[lictor616]

So I guess I agree with the gist of what you're saying. The forces of political correctness are often thrown into a quandary whenever third-world brown-people do something stupid.

Yes... rather conspicuous no? Whenever the oppressors are "non-white"... its all ho-hum...

It makes me recall this one self-styled feminist on campus who had a table out petitioning our campus radio to stop broadcasting hip hop since hip hop is usually demeaning to women... she was quite aggressive, loud and self-confident until this black dude showed up and said that to boycott such an overwhelmingly black music genre amounts to racism...

her face flushed red... she had a lump in her throat... packed up her bags and left...

so much for women liberation I guess.... all you have to do is say the word "racist"... and you can get any feminist irreconcilable on the run... which is why I wonder if feminism is not merely a front to attack nonwhite/western "establishment...

Edited September 5, 2009 by lictor616

[lictor616]

Let me stop you there, however.

Presenting "REAL Women" as a representative of what Canadian feminists are saying is a huge mistake.

They're a group of cranky old church-ladies fighting for womens' right to get out of the workforce and get back in the kitchen.

Why are they sticking up for the Muslims? Because in the clash between women and religion, R.E.A.L. Women figure the Muslims are on Team Jeeeezus.

-k

I suspect that what you say is accurate, reading some of their letters definitely gives off the impression that these old venomous harridans are definitely high on Christianity and consequently their brains are too coagulated with jesus juice for rational discourse.

Perhaps you could direct me to a "legitimate" feminist association... or even better one that regularly and clearly denounces such outrages as the aforementioned.

[kimmy]

so much for women liberation I guess.... all you have to do is say the word "racist"... and you can get any feminist irreconcilable on the run... which is why I wonder if feminism is not merely a front to attack nonwhite/western "establishment...

That's ridiculous. Women have not fought for freedoms in our Western democracies only to lose them to third-world knuckleheads.

-k

[lictor616]

That's ridiculous. Women have not fought for freedoms in our Western democracies only to lose them to third-world knuckleheads.

-k

I would hope that you're right on that... I envy your optimism..

[kimmy]

their brains are too coagulated with jesus juice for rational discourse.

Perhaps you could direct me to a "legitimate" feminist association... or even better one that regularly and clearly denounces such outrages as the aforementioned.

Not off the top of my head. I don't really follow feminist organizations closely or monitor their statements. It's like asking somebody to name some top Cricket players and their current stats. Who would know, and who would even care?

I do recall feminist groups being among those who spoke out against Sharia in Ontario, however.

One prominent example of a feminist who speaks out against Islam is Irshad Manji; but of course she can do so without accusations of racism because she is brown and Muslim herself.

-k

{Jesus Juice!}

[lictor616]

Not off the top of my head. I don't really follow feminist organizations closely or monitor their statements. It's like asking somebody to name some top Cricket players and their current stats. Who would know, and who would even care?

I do recall feminist groups being among those who spoke out against Sharia in Ontario, however.

One prominent example of a feminist who speaks out against Islam is Irshad Manji; but of course she can do so without accusations of racism because she is brown and Muslim herself.

-k

{Jesus Juice!}

I can't even find one on the net....

if any other members could point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it..

[Wild Bill]

I remember taking sociology as an elective once, predictably they didn't teach sociology as much as they did radical marxism (making sure to put the Marxist slant on everything) we had to read papers with titles such as "Why feminist, Marxist, and anti-racist economists should be feminist-Marxist-anti-racist economists"

Those of us old enough to be fuzzy about what we did in the 60's might remember a Firesign Theater 'radio play' skit called "The Adventures of Porgy and Mudhead", which was a psychedelic spoof of the old late 1930's movies that starred Mickey Rooney as a teenager always getting into trouble.

In that skit the opponents were the kids from "Commie Martyrs High School". Porgy and his friends break into the school late at night. While they are wandering around they come across a mural. The plaque beneath it reads "Heroic Struggle of the Little Guys to Finish the Mural!"

I was a young lad then and I've always thought that this reference gave me a good perspective on socialism in general!

[Melanie_]

Where are the feminists? I know of a few here that usually defend muslims, and usually root for the non-western side of ANY issue... Why don't I ever hear them complain about what terrors their "sisters" have to endure in Islamic countries?

I’m not sure what feminists you’ve been talking to, Lictor, but none that I know would ever support the practices you’ve described, regardless of who is carrying them out. Here’s my perspective as a feminist; I don’t speak for anyone but myself, but I do have an opinion about this.

As a feminist, I believe a woman has the right to choose what to do with her life, and this includes reproductive and sexual choice. That means no one has the right to tell her what to do, or force her to do something she doesn’t want to.

A woman has the right to choose when to have sex. Husbands, boyfriends, and even perfect strangers may think they have access to her body simply because she is there and she is female, but a woman is under no obligation to provide services on demand.

A woman has the right to choose her own partner, according to her own preferences (i.e., not limited to someone of her own religion, ethnic background, SES, etc.; not limited to someone of the opposite sex).

A woman has the right to choose when to become a mother, and how often. I read a statistic somewhere – no link – that stated that just under half of the married women in the world have access to birth control. The number of unmarried women who have access to birth control is much smaller. This is a clear example of how women are denied self determination.

A woman has the right to an intact body – FGM is an abhorrent practice.

This applies, in my opinion, to all women everywhere. You've brought this topic up in relation to Islam, but I really don’t care what religion we're talking about – I have no use for any religion that has a patriarchal starting point, and preaches that women have a duty to men.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Melanie_

[lictor616]

I’m not sure what feminists you’ve been talking to, Lictor, but none that I know would ever support the practices you’ve described, regardless of who is carrying them out. Here’s my perspective as a feminist; I don’t speak for anyone but myself, but I do have an opinion about this.

As a feminist, I believe a woman has the right to choose what to do with her life, and this includes reproductive and sexual choice. That means no one has the right to tell her what to do, or force her to do something she doesn’t want to.

A woman has the right to choose when to have sex. Husbands, boyfriends, and even perfect strangers may think they have access to her body simply because she is there and she is female, but a woman is under no obligation to provide services on demand.

A woman has the right to choose her own partner, according to her own preferences (i.e., not limited to someone of her own religion, ethnic background, SES, etc.; not limited to someone of the opposite sex).

A woman has the right to choose when to become a mother, and how often. I read a statistic somewhere – no link – that stated that just under half of the married women in the world have access to birth control. The number of unmarried women who have access to birth control is much smaller. This is a clear example of how women are denied self determination.

A woman has the right to an intact body – FGM is an abhorrent practice.

This applies, in my opinion, to all women everywhere. You've brought this topic up in relation to Islam, but I really don’t care what religion we're talking about – I have no use for any religion that has a patriarchal starting point, and preaches that women have a duty to men.

would you agree with the statement that Islam is more detrimental to female freedom? Would you agree that the Islamic regions of the globe are MORE oppressive vis-a-vis western ones?

And please, could you point out a feminist organization that is vocal and outspoken about Islamic outrages such as FGM and other barbaric and unjust mistreatment of women? I'd be quite interested in knowing.

Edited September 6, 2009 by lictor616

[BC_chick]

would you agree with the statement that Islam is more detrimental to female freedom? Would you agree that the Islamic regions of the globe are MORE oppressive vis-a-vis western ones?

And please, could you point out a feminist organization that is vocal and outspoken about Islamic outrages such as FGM and other barbaric and unjust mistreatment of women? I'd be quite interested in knowing.

You're kidding me, there is ample literature written by feminists on the subject of Islam and women's rights. Check the dates, many were written prior to 9-11 when their objections were written not to justify invasions and bombing, but out of genuine concern.

[Melanie_]

Why is it important to label one as “more” than the other? Injustice anywhere is still injustice, regardless of who perpetuates it, and in whose name. And no, I can’t point to any feminist organization, as I don’t belong to any (but I don’t think REAL Women of Canada would appreciate you calling them feminists ).

As a side note, FGM is not connected to Islam. It is a cultural construct that is often found in predominantly Muslim nations, but may also be practiced within those countries by Christians, Jews, and Animists. It isn't practiced universally throughout the Islamic world - this is a good example of why we need to focus on the specific injustice, rather than on surface characteristics. Wikipedia says:

The traditional cultural practice of FGC predates both Islam and Christianity. A Greek papyrus from 163 B.C. mentions girls in Egypt undergoing circumcision and it is widely accepted to have originated in Egypt and the Nile valley at the time of the Pharaohs. Evidence from mummies have shown both Type I and Type III FGC present.[40] (Note that the earliest evidence of male circumcision is also from Ancient Egypt.) Amnesty International says that the prevalence of the practice of FGC is unknown, and that the procedure is now only practiced by some Muslims and Animists.[41] The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services states that the custom of FGC "cuts across religions and is practiced by Muslims, Christians, Jews and followers of indigenous religions."[42]

[DogOnPorch]

Why is it important to label one as “more” than the other? Injustice anywhere is still injustice, regardless of who perpetuates it, and in whose name. And no, I can’t point to any feminist organization, as I don’t belong to any (but I don’t think REAL Women of Canada would appreciate you calling them feminists ).

As a side note, FGM is not connected to Islam. It is a cultural construct that is often found in predominantly Muslim nations, but may also be practiced within those countries by Christians, Jews, and Animists. It isn't practiced universally throughout the Islamic world - this is a good example of why we need to focus on the specific injustice, rather than on surface characteristics. Wikipedia says:

Christmas trees and Yule logs are not Christian...but they are now associated with Christianity.

[Melanie_]

Christmas trees and Yule logs are not Christian...but they are now associated with Christianity.

Yup. Can't argue with that logic.

[DogOnPorch]

Yup. Can't argue with that logic.

I suppose I had best spell it out.

Old pagan traditions in Europe were assimilated into Christianity as conversion occured. One can assume that Islam gained many of its quaint customs in this fashion as well.

[Melanie_]

Yes, I get that. And as I thought about it some more, I agree with you, this is a good analogy. FGM was practiced in a part of the world that eventually became predominantly Muslim, and the cultural tradition became tangled up in the religion, even though it isn’t actually part of the religion (and there are people in those areas who practice it who are not Muslim). Just as Christmas trees became tangled up in Christianity, even though there is no basis in the actual religion for having them. One can be Christian and not put up a Christmas tree, just as one can be Muslim and not mutilate women.

[DogOnPorch]

Christmas is a great example of this. Midwinter's festivals all over Europe? Guess who happened to be born at that time...fashionably late even? Not that that was actually his birthday...but it suited the church well enough...Dec 25th it is!

[lictor616]

You're kidding me, there is ample literature written by feminists on the subject of Islam and women's rights. Check the dates, many were written prior to 9-11 when their objections were written not to justify invasions and bombing, but out of genuine concern.

i'll ask again, is there a recognized feminist faction or group or committee that issues newsletters or dispatches that is outspoken on the subject?... if there is... i'd like to know its name/website ...

[DogOnPorch]

i'll ask again, is there a recognized feminist faction or group or committee that issues newsletters or dispatches that is outspoken on the subject?... if there is... i'd like to know its name/website ...

RAWA...but mind the feet on the coffee table around those chicks.

[lictor616]

Why is it important to label one as “more” than the other? Injustice anywhere is still injustice, regardless of who perpetuates it, and in whose name. And no, I can’t point to any feminist organization, as I don’t belong to any (but I don’t think REAL Women of Canada would appreciate you calling them feminists ).

Wikipedia says:

Its important to know where the BIGGEST injustices occur so that we can focus our attention to these FIRST...

Usually that's how problem solving goes...

I mean if child slavery goes on in togo and benin (as human rights watch reports it does) do we simply ignore it as "Injustice anywhere is still injustice, regardless of who perpetuates it" and "we all have blood on our hands"...

I think that adopting a relativistic attitude is pretty hypocritical in this instance.

[Guest American Woman]

i'll ask again, is there a recognized feminist faction or group or committee that issues newsletters or dispatches that is outspoken on the subject?... if there is... i'd like to know its name/website ...

feminist.com

Edited September 7, 2009 by American Woman

[eyeball]

That's ridiculous. Women have not fought for freedoms in our Western democracies only to lose them to third-world knuckleheads.

-k

Enough must have stood to give our western democracies the sense they could get away with cutting deals with knuckleheads who deny these and other human rights from their own people. Now we're seeing the erosion of human rights in our societies in our quest to defend ourselves from the dysfunction that supporting these knuckleheads caused.

[Peter F]

Its important to know where the BIGGEST injustices occur so that we can focus our attention to these FIRST...

Usually that's how problem solving goes...

I mean if child slavery goes on in togo and benin (as human rights watch reports it does) do we simply ignore it as "Injustice anywhere is still injustice, regardless of who perpetuates it" and "we all have blood on our hands"...

I think that adopting a relativistic attitude is pretty hypocritical in this instance.

So you're off to crap on some feminist organization somewhere. Good one!

Edited September 8, 2009 by Peter F