Parallels to Iraq

[Hugo]

Some evidently feel that Iraqi restoration of power is not proceeding fast enough. We are now just over a year after occupation, but apparently Iraqis are not being allowed self-government quickly enough, and the Iraqi military continues to be under the control of the US. But let's look at two historical parallels, post-war Germany and Japan.

In Iraq, there is an Iraqi military but it remains under US control. The Bundeswehr (West German Army) was not created until 1955, a decade after occupation. The Iraqi government still has not been decided, but the plans for a West German state were not laid out until July 1948, and the first elections were not held until over a year later.

In Japan, the country was occupied until 1952. A new constitution was not drawn up until 1947, two years after the end of the war. A Japanese army was not created until 1954.

It would be foolish to regard either Germany or Japan as puppet states of the US, now or at any point in the last half-century or so. Both were in tight alliances with the USA, however, so were nations that US forces did not occupy and administer such as France, Italy or the UK.

Bearing this in mind, I feel it is foolish to demand that this process of the rebirth of nationhood be rushed, when good results in the past have taken a long time. Just because Iraqi elections are not being held as we speak does not bode any ill for the future.

[August1991]

But let's look at two historical parallels, post-war Germany and Japan.

I think this is the example the Bushies look to. But we live in a different age.

First, Germany was utterly and totally destroyed in the war. All Germans, even Nazis, understood by April 1945 that Hitler had involved their country in a horrible mistake.

Second, the Japanese were humiliated. The Emperor was forced to be human in front of a foreigner. Japan had suffered twice the tremendous superior technology of a foreigner.

Iraq, and the Arab/Islamic world, have not been put in this kind of position. (Nor should they. No Arab/Islamic government has launched a war similar to Hitler Germany or Tojo Japan against the liberal West.)

Third, are we more impatient than before? Do we expect results sooner? I doubt it. People with nothing are impatient. Those with something can wait.

Rather, I think we in the West are rich. We can enjoy so many benefits of life. Since we have a lot, we are prepared to give up a lot to ensure life is protected.

Hugo, would you risk your life going to Iraq? In my family, one died in World War II. Richer, I don't know if I would take the same risk he took.

[kaper1999]

usa should take its time to torture civilians in iraq. good going. keep up the good work

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[playfullfellow]

Third, are we more impatient than before? Do we expect results sooner? I doubt it. People with nothing are impatient. Those with something can wait.

I think the world has grown a lot more impatient than post WW2. Instead of waiting 30 mins for a meal in a restaurant, we will only wait a few minutes in a drive through or we get upset, houses have to built in 6 weeks instead of 3 months and we want our information in seconds, not days. The other difference is that Japan and Germany unconditionally and formally surrendered to the Allies. Iraq's military leaders will have to formally surrender and have decent control of all factions for the changes to start. This will be extremely hard because Iraq is still full of tribal or rather religious factions that do not follow one leader.

[Black Dog]

There's many problems with comparing post-war Germany and Japan with present-day Iraq. While I recongize the point is basically "these things take time", using that as a rationale to justify the invasion occupation is folly, given the enormous differences between the post WW2 Axis and post-Saddam Iraq.

For starters, both Germany and Japan were relatively ethnically and religiously homogeneous, a sharp contrast to the divisions in Iraqi society. Germany, prior to the rise of Hitler, had a sembleance of democratic tradition and had much of its economic and beureaucratic infrastructure intact after hostilities. Iraq has never so much as flirted with democracy and its civil and economic infrastructure is in utter shambles after 12 years of crippling sanctions, two wars and the complete dismantling of preexisiting administrative structure under the guise of de-Baathification.

As well, the post-war occupation of the Axis powers had a tremendous amount of legitimacy in the eyes of the world, unlike Bush's adventure in Iraq. Germany and Japan were aggressor states in the conflict and even the conquered people of those nations more or less accepted their defeats and the subsequent U.S. occupation. In both cases, there was no armed resistance. Compare that with the rising insurgency in Iraq, which shows little sign of slowing down as the "handover" nears.

Then there's the numbers. Post war Germany harboured nearly 3 million Allied troops, Japan more than 100,000 and included thousands of civil-affairs personnel which put into place reconstruction plan sthat had been in the works for many years, unlike the slapdash U.S. policy in Iraq, which seemed to focus primarily on acheiving military victory.

There's many more ways in which the parrallels fall short, but suffice it to say, that while democratization is indeed a long process, conditions in post war germany and Japan were more or less favourable to the process. The realities in Iraq are decidedly less so.