Harper & the Arctic

[Smallc]

I think you should learn that territories and provinces are different types of entities with different powers of tax collection.

[jbg]

Do we want the North for security reasons? The Cold War has ended. The US doesn't need an early warning system to indicate an attack.

Do we want to defend our sovereignty? Why? For what? From whom? Would we spend billions defending Canadian sovereignty of several moon craters?

What about the fact that even with the Cold War ended, peace has not broken out in the world? Do you think it's a good idea to leave 4/5 of a country fallow and undefended?

And seriously, what about your sovereignty vis a vis the U.S.? We are close allies but you're still an independent country.

[August1991]

I think you should learn that territories and provinces are different types of entities with different powers of tax collection.

But smallc, what you don't understand is that this distinction is irrelevant.

Who cares whether the NWT is a province or a territory?

The question is whether the 43,000 people in the NWT would continue to do what they do if the rest of us in the South stopped giving them money. You seem to think that people in the NWT, on average, give people in the south money. I disagree.

IMV, the question is what would happen in the north if there were no more southern subsidies. What would happen if northerners paid their way?

Also, I'm really tired of political porn. Federal PMs (or their sons) doing photo ops in the North.

Edited August 18, 2009 by August1991

[Guest TrueMetis]

IMV, the question is what would happen in the north if there were no more southern subsidies. What would happen if northerners paid their way?

What would happen to all the farms that are getting susidies if they stopped?

August stop acting like the NWT are the only ones who rely on subsidies.

[Smallc]

But smallc, what you don't understand is that this distinction is irrelevant.

No it isn't. If the territories had the same revenue collection power, they wouldn't need nearly the same amount in subsidies.

[August1991]

What would happen to all the farms that are getting susidies if they stopped?

August stop acting like the NWT are the only ones who rely on subsidies.

I'm not saying that only the 43,000 people in the NWT benefit from federal largesse. TrueMetis, I know well that on average every Canadian dairy farm receives about $20,000 per person. (I'll stand corrected on that statistic.)

What would happen if Canadian dairy farms no longer received subsidies? (I could buy milk, cheese and butter cheaper from New Zealanders. For some reason, people believe that if we buy butter and cheese from abroad, it is the end of the world yet the same people use cell phones made in Finland and Japan.)

----

TrueMetis, I think that we Southerners subsidize some of you Northerners.

I also think that federal politicians use you Northerners, and southern money, for porno political photo ops.

I am tired of all this. I want it to stop. I don't want to see another Canadian federal PM at a G8 porno photo shoot.

[Guest TrueMetis]

I'm not saying that only the 43,000 people in the NWT benefit from federal largesse. TrueMetis, I know well that on average every Canadian dairy farm receives about $20,000 per person. (I'll stand corrected on that statistic.)

What would happen if Canadian dairy farms no longer received subsidies? (I could buy milk, cheese and butter cheaper from New Zealanders. For some reason, people believe that if we buy butter and cheese from abroad, it is the end of the world yet the same people use cell phones made in Finland and Japan.)

----

TrueMetis, I think that we Southerners subsidize some of you Northerners.

I also think that federal politicians use you Northerners, and southern money, for porno political photo ops.

I am tired of all this. I want it to stop. I don't want to see another Canadian federal PM at a G8 porno photo shoot.

Your right the Photo shoot thing is crap and needs to stop. At the same time we need to put more into the North because there is huge amounts of resources up there that would benefit all of Canada.

BTW I live on mainland B.C. So I'm as much of a "Southerner" as you.

[Smallc]

[August1991]

At the same time we need to put more into the North because there is huge amounts of resources up there that would benefit all of Canada.

If you really believe this, then you can put your own money into companies with northern investments.

TrueMetis, but please don't put my money too.

I'm pissed off that Stephen Harper has used our taxpayer money, like Trudeau, for a holiday to show his kids the "Great North". Travel to the north is very expensive, and IMHE, the only people who go there are government subsidized people - with a few, precise exceptions. Without government subsidies, the North would be a very different, more "honest" place.

BTW I live on mainland B.C. So I'm as much of a "Southerner" as you.

Point made. And you're north of me. Edited August 18, 2009 by August1991

[jbg]

I am tired of all this. I want it to stop. I don't want to see another Canadian federal PM at a G8 porno photo shoot.

I agree with the concept but "porn" is a strong term.

Why don't you add the U.N. to the list since the people that benefit aren't even Canadians, but are the dictators (not the people) of other countries. Both of our countries fund the U.N. so that the leaders can bathe in the bonhommie of grouphugs with thugs (yes it rhymes). What do we get back from Mugabe for our tax dollars?

[Topaz]

I'm not defending Harper, but the truth of the trip is to watch the exercises that the navy is doing and Harper will go in a Sub and he has along McKay and Prentice. Prentice , I can see out in the wilderness by not Harper or McKay. http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/08/17/...-harper437.html

[Topaz]

What is McKay doing up there you ask? http://www.cbc.ca/canada/north/story/2009/...fe-reserve.html

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I am very happy about this entire thing. Some focus is finally being placed upon the government with respect to arctic sovereignty.

[Argus]

I am very happy about this entire thing. Some focus is finally being placed upon the government with respect to arctic sovereignty.

I see it as nothing but a cheap publicity stunt. Harper can make all the mouth noises he wants. But it's time and past time for him to stop talking and start doing. Where are the ice breakers we were promised? Where are the Ice reinforced patrol ships? Where are the new troops and bases?

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I see it as nothing but a cheap publicity stunt. Harper can make all the mouth noises he wants. But it's time and past time for him to stop talking and start doing. Where are the ice breakers we were promised? Where are the Ice reinforced patrol ships? Where are the new troops and bases?

Argus I agree with you, but the simple fact is that the public is now getting some concept of the depth of the problem. I can only hope that the next government will actually do something before it is too late, if it isn't already.

[August1991]

I am very happy about this entire thing. Some focus is finally being placed upon the government with respect to arctic sovereignty.

IOW, this is a big PR exercise.

Sorry, Jerry, you can justify anything as a "PR exercise" and when it comes to spending other people's money, the justifications are endless.

IME, governments are bad at picking winners. If the North is such a good deal, let people go there on their own. I am tired of paying for subsidies, castles in the clouds, windmills, hare-brained schemes.

I am tired of being forced to pay for other people's dreams.

But it's time and past time for him to stop talking and start doing. Where are the ice breakers we were promised? Where are the Ice reinforced patrol ships? Where are the new troops and bases?

Icebreakers? How many? Do you know how big the Arctic is?

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As Jerry said Argus, this is a PR exercise to get votes among some dreamers in the South - and Harper is using my money to buy those votes. I'm tired of this.

If the North is such a great place, invest there on your own dime. Every time I hear a CBC report of Harper's trip, I think: "I paid for all this crap. I have paid for several thousand people to fly several thousand kilometers to a place with nothing and then tell me that they are all there." None of those people would have gone there if the money came out of their own pocket.

It's insanity.

Edited August 20, 2009 by August1991

[jdobbin]

IME, governments are bad at picking winners.

Private business has a hard time doing it as well.

[August1991]

Private business has a hard time doing it as well.

Precisely, Dobbin. Precisely. It is hard to pick winners - but it is less nerve wracking when you use other people's money.

[August1991]

I agree with the concept but "porn" is a strong term.

It's political porn. They used to call it a "photo op" but now it's just "political porn".

[Keepitsimple]

A little self centered, don't you think? Canada isn't all about you and what you think. Harper is the Prime Minister of all of Canada, not just the parts that are important to you. Oh, and the Northwest Territories is the most wealthy jurisdiction per capita in the world, and Yukon isn't far behind. Their GDPs are, IIRC, almost 4 and 3 times the size of Quebec's per capita.

I'm mostly with Smallc on this one, in spite of all the other posts that have been made. It's about all Canadians and all of Canada. It's not only the pragmatic "use it or you lose it"....there's history in the territories dating back to the very beginnings of Canada with all the Hudson's Bay outposts. These residual communities have helped Canada hold onto our territory and with the right targeted investment, the major centres can become more self-sufficient. It's about time we stopped completely ignoring the North.

[jdobbin]

Precisely, Dobbin. Precisely. It is hard to pick winners - but it is less nerve wracking when you use other people's money.

So you don't believe in shareholding businesses?

[August1991]

I'm mostly with Smallc on this one, in spite of all the other posts that have been made. It's about all Canadians and all of Canada. It's not only the pragmatic "use it or you lose it"....there's history in the territories dating back to the very beginnings of Canada with all the Hudson's Bay outposts. These residual communities have helped Canada hold onto our territory and with the right targeted investment, the major centres can become more self-sufficient. It's about time we stopped completely ignoring the North.

And Harper is using this to get your money.

How would you feel if Harper wanted to give your money to a small community in northern Quebec?

Sorry KeepitSimple, Harper is using my money to pull your heartstring. It's political porn - at my expense.

So you don't believe in shareholding businesses?

I can sell a share if I don't trust the managers.

IOW Dobbin, if private shareholding businesses (corporations) mismanage money and can't pick winners, I can choose different managers. If government managers tax me and use the money to pick winners, what do I do?

Dobbin, there is a big difference between the State and Corporations (shareholding businesses, as you call them).

Edited August 20, 2009 by August1991

[jdobbin]

I can sell a share if I don't trust the managers.

Not if they mismanage it to worthless value through poor management and oversight.

OW Dobbin, if private shareholding businesses (corporations) mismanage money and can't pick winners, I can choose different managers. If government managers tax me and use the money to pick winners, what do I do?

Vote?

Dobbin, there is a big difference between the State and Corporations (shareholding businesses, as you call them).

And I figured you were going to argue that they are the same.

Edited August 20, 2009 by jdobbin

[August1991]

Vote?

Vote?

I can buy or sell a share any day of the week. I can only vote for/against Harper every four years, assuming he calls a vote.

My shares are my money. My vote in a federal election changes absolutely nothing.

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The bottom line is that Harper is using the force of the State to take my tax money for a PR scheme to convince other people (eg. KeepItSimple, SmallC) to take my tax money for Harper's northern trip - and his northern schemes.

KeepSimple and SmallC happen to like the Arctic. Others have other pet projects.

When or how will this end? The State cannot spend/borrow other people's money forever. So, how does this Ponzi scheme end?

Edited August 20, 2009 by August1991

[g_bambino]

Vote? My shares are my money. My vote in a federal election changes absolutely nothing.

The State cannot spend/borrow other people's money forever. So, how does this Ponzi scheme end?

You know, I can't tell whether you're irked by how your money is being spent, or by the fact that your money's spent at all. If it's the former, what else can you do but vote? If it's the latter... well, there are still some uninhabited outcrops of rock amongst the southern Japanese islands where I'm sure you could live a hermetic, if tax-free, life.