Harper & the Arctic

[August1991]

Prime Minister Stephen Harper arrived in Iqaluit on Monday afternoon as part of an Arctic trip that will include observing an anti-submarine warfare exercise.

....

Harper will also be visiting Yellowknife and Whitehorse on his five-day tour and is holding a cabinet meeting in the region.

CBC

I know that this is a PR exercise and Diefenbaker used to do the same - "The Great True North". Trudeau used to canoe on rivers in the NWT.

"The North" just doesn't move me.

I've been to northern Alberta and northern Ontario and Abitibi. I've even canoed some of the rivers. I've been to northwestern Siberia. I've flown over Labrador, Greenland and northern Russian and Canada's territories and looked down. To me, it's mostly ice, rock and water. Sometimes small trees or swamp only passable in winter when the water is frozen.

IMHO, we may be able to exploit the natural resources in the North, in particular because glaciers have exposed the riches below the ground soil. But finding these resources, living there, digging up the resources and then shipping them to people who want them pose many practical problems. We might as well invent schemes to mine the Moon.

People in Canada's south subsidize the life of people in Canada's north. We in the south paid for Harper's trip north.

-----

I think some people view the north as if it were the modern equivalent of the 19th century West or the Louisiana purchase. It's not. The North is a frozen wasteland where it is hard (impossible) to live. It is costly to exploit resources and costly to get those resources to anyone who wants them.

Do we want the North for security reasons? The Cold War has ended. The US doesn't need an early warning system to indicate an attack.

Do we want to defend our sovereignty? Why? For what? From whom? Would we spend billions defending Canadian sovereignty of several moon craters?

-----

In short, I just don't get this Harper PR exercise. Why is Harper in the north? I reckon that he's there because he has access to our collective tax dollars to pay for the trip. That's why.

If Harper weren't PM, he wouldn't be in Iqualuit. Few private Canadians can afford the trip or would choose to travel there if they had to pay full fare.

Private markets should develop the North. I'm tired of government sinkholes, and federal politicians using tax dollars for PR exercises.

I'll finish with another CBC link, and another taxpayer funded holiday to the North:

I was about six years old when I went on my first official trip. I was going with my father and my grandpa Sinclair up to the North Pole.

It was a very glamorous destination. But the best thing about it is that I was going to be spending lots of time with my dad because in Ottawa he just worked so hard.

One day, we were in Alert, Canada's northernmost point, a scientific military installation that seemed to consist entirely of low shed-like buildings and warehouses.

Let's be honest. I was six. There were no brothers around to play with and I was getting a little bored because dad still somehow had a lot of work to do.

I remember a frozen, windswept Arctic afternoon when I was bundled up into a Jeep and hustled out on a special top-secret mission. I figured I was finally going to be let in on the reason of this high-security Arctic base.

I was exactly right.

We drove slowly through and past the buildings, all of them very grey and windy. We rounded a corner and came upon a red one. We stopped. I got out of the Jeep and started to crunch across towards the front door. I was told, no, to the window.

So I clamboured over the snowbank, was boosted up to the window, rubbed my sleeve against the frosty glass to see inside and as my eyes adjusted to the gloom, I saw a figure, hunched over one of many worktables that seemed very cluttered. He was wearing a red suit with that furry white trim.

And that's when I understood just how powerful and wonderful my father was.

Pierre Elliott Trudeau.

CBC

So. Another PM gets to take his kids on another northern holiday, at taxpayer expense. Membership has its privileges.

Edited August 18, 2009 by August1991

[Smallc]

A little self centered, don't you think? Canada isn't all about you and what you think. Harper is the Prime Minister of all of Canada, not just the parts that are important to you. Oh, and the Northwest Territories is the most wealthy jurisdiction per capita in the world, and Yukon isn't far behind. Their GDPs are, IIRC, almost 4 and 3 times the size of Quebec's per capita.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Smallc

[August1991]

A little self centered, don't you think? Canada isn't all about you and what you think.

Smallc, I strongly disagree. I am astonished that you are so naive as to post this.

A civilized country, a civilized society, is precisely about me and people like me. Canada is certainly not about the State, and it is certainly not about what our leaders do.

A civilized state is centred on individual citizens, and how individuals choose to live.

Oh, and the Northwest Territories is the most wealthy jurisdiction per capita in the world, and Yukon isn't far behind.

Links please. And why is there a northern tax deduction? Edited August 18, 2009 by August1991

[Smallc]

Smallc, I strongly disagree. I am astonished that you are so naive as to post this.

A civilized country, a civilized society, is precisely about me and people like me. Canada is certainly not about the State, and it is certainly not about what our leaders do.

I'm astonished that you think Canada revolves around you and that you represent civilization. You aren't the only individual in this state, and individuals are not the only thing that this particular state is built on. We don't live in a libertarian country.

Links please. And why is there a northern tax deduction?

Living int he north is inconvenient. Some goods are also expensive. I've already shown you once what the GDPs are, but here it is again. You can do the Math...I've already done it.

GDPs: http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/econ15-eng.htm

Population: http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/demo02a-eng.htm

Per Capita:

NWT: $125,150 Yukon: 60,422 Quebec: 38,898

I was a bit high on my numbers and wrong on Yukon, but NWT is just as strong economically as I said.

[Alta4ever]

I'm astonished that you think Canada revolves around you and that you represent civilization. You aren't the only individual in this state, and individuals are not the only thing that this particular state is built on. We don't live in a libertarian country.

Living int he north is inconvenient. Some goods are also expensive. I've already shown you once what the GDPs are, but here it is again. You can do the Math...I've already done it.

GDPs: http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/econ15-eng.htm

Population: http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/demo02a-eng.htm

Per Capita:

NWT: $125,150 Yukon: 60,422 Quebec: 38,898

I was a bit high on my numbers and wrong on Yukon, but NWT is just as strong economically as I said.

Just as a comparison I wonder what a loaf of bread and a liter of milk sell for in these northern communities vs the ROC I bet that the cost of living is a way higher.

[Smallc]

I bet it is much higher. It doesn't mean that we should abandon the north on someone's whim.

[Alta4ever]

I bet it is much higher. It doesn't mean that we should abandon the north on someone's whim.

Never said that, but the per capita numbers you posted needed some context.

[Smallc]

The economy has nothing to do with income and expenses though. The point was that the north generates a great amount of wealth for the number of people that live there.

[Alta4ever]

The economy has nothing to do with income and expenses though. The point was that the north generates a great amount of wealth for the number of people that live there.

and it takes great wealth to afford to live their.

[Smallc]

That it does.

[Guest TrueMetis]

It only costs so much because they fly most stuff up there it would be cheaper if we built a train. At least to some of the areas.

[Alta4ever]

It only costs so much because they fly most stuff up there it would be cheaper if we built a train. At least to some of the areas.

So why is it still so expensive in Yellowknife which is not fly in only?

[Guest TrueMetis]

So why is it still so expensive in Yellowknife which is not fly in only?

How do they bring it in?

[Alta4ever]

How do they bring it in?

By Truck

[Guest TrueMetis]

By Truck

Well Unless I'm completly off shipping by train or ship is much cheaper than By truck or plane. Although the cost of building the railway would need to be factored in but would probably pay for itself rather quickly by increasing profit on things exported and lowering cost of things imported.

[Alta4ever]

Well Unless I'm completly off shipping by train or ship is much cheaper than By truck or plane. Although the cost of building the railway would need to be factored in but would probably pay for itself rather quickly by increasing profit on things exported and lowering cost of things imported.

With the lack of population in the north a train would not pay for itself quickly if ever.

[August1991]

I'm astonished that you think Canada revolves around you and that you represent civilization. You aren't the only individual in this state, and individuals are not the only thing that this particular state is built on. We don't live in a libertarian country.

Sorry, smallc, Canada is completely about me and other Canadians. If not for the people here, what would Canada be?

Let me make this more plain. Canada is the sum result of the lives of individual Canadians. IOW, Canada doesn't matter. It is the people here who matter. When you care more about Canada, you denigrate individual Canadians.

IMV, this is a critical point to understand.

Living int he north is inconvenient. Some goods are also expensive. I've already shown you once what the GDPs are, but here it is again. You can do the Math...I've already done it.

GDPs: http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/econ15-eng.htm

Population: http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/demo02a-eng.htm

Per Capita:

NWT: $125,150 Yukon: 60,422 Quebec: 38,898

I was a bit high on my numbers and wrong on Yukon, but NWT is just as strong economically as I said.

According to your links (NWT for example):

NWT GDP 2008 $5,429 million

NWT Population 2008 43,300

NWT GDP/capita $125,150

But this is GDP measured by expenditure. IOW, we are looking at what people in the NWT spend on average, using market prices. I am not at all surprised that this is a very high number.

What does the NWT produce? A quick glance at Statistics Canada did not give a link to GDP by source (although even this could be misleading).

I did find this: The public sector employed directly some 9,785 in the NWT, a place where the total population including kids, housewives etc is 43,300. IOW, about one quarter of every human being in the NWT receives a government salary. Statcan Link

Keep in mind that many private employers in the NWT also rely on government subsidies to exist.

The 43,300 people who live in the NWT enjoy their lifestyle because southern taxpayers make their lifestyle possible. Without southern subsidies, the NWT would be a very different place.

I don't deny that the North. like much of Canada, offers potential profits. I think that private markets should develop this potential, not the government. I object to northern subsidies.

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I also object to federal politicians using taxpayer money to take their kids on northern trips to pretend to be "Canadian". To me, this is a fraud - and I have to pay for it.

If Harper were not PM, he would never have travelled north on his own.

Harper's Arctic trip is political porn. It's like a G8 photo shoot.

Edited August 18, 2009 by August1991

[Guest TrueMetis]

I object to northern subsidies.

What about all the southren ones?

[jdobbin]

What about all the southren ones?

Exactly. Like billions to the oil industry from the 1990s to the present.

[Smallc]

What does the NWT produce?

Diamonds for starters.

[jdobbin]

So why is it still so expensive in Yellowknife which is not fly in only?

Maybe because it is 19 hours of driving from Edmonton or Fort St. John.

Still, there have been dramatic improvements in the cost of living for a place like Whitehorse.

http://www.yukoncommunities.yk.ca/communit...hitehorse/cost/

It helps to be on a busier road.

[jdobbin]

I know that this is a PR exercise and Diefenbaker used to do the same - "The Great True North".

It is a re-announcement of announcements that were already announced.

You have one thing right: Most Canadians don't seem moved to vote for a big play for the north.

However, I don't think there is much a movement as you propose for the complete privatization of the entire country.

[August1991]

What about all the southren ones?

The budget of the NWT in 2008 was about $1.3 billion. Almost $900 million came from the federal government. Link

What southern govermment must rely explicitly on such federal (southern) largesse for its budget? None. Southerners subsidize the lifestyle of the 43,000 citizens in the NWT.

Live locally? People in the North don't. Given how costly it is to bring food north, what is their carbon footprint?

Diamonds for starters.

Collect the royalties. Why should I subsidize New York women with big rings? Edited August 18, 2009 by August1991

[Smallc]

The budget of the NWT in 2008 was about $1.3 billion. Almost $900 million came from the federal government. Link

That's because territories do not have the same rights as provinces. They can't collect the same type of tax revenue or roylties as a province. You really need to stop putting your foot in your mouth.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Smallc

[August1991]

That's because territories do not have the same rights as provinces. They can't collect the same type of tax revenue or roylties as a province. You really need to stop putting your foot in your mouth.

So now we quibble about government accounts.

The government of NWT (I used it as an example) receives about 70% of its money directly from the federal government. About one of every four men, women and children in the NWT (one quarter of everyone in the NWT) is a salaried employee on a government payroll.

And your response, smallc, is that "territories do not have the same rights as provinces". Huh? Smallc, I think that you should go back and think seriously about what a country or a (sustainable) society is.

Edited August 18, 2009 by August1991