Muslims Muslims Muslims

[Bonam]

Try finding a country that isn't multicultural.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0855611.html

The acceptance of several languages has nothing to do with multiculturalism. A country can easily recognize several traditional languages while still being hostile to outsiders. And in any case multiculturalism is more than simply being welcoming or tolerant of those of different cultures, it is a specific set of ideas and policies that forsake integration and unity and embrace rather division and segregation.

[justme]

Certainly multiculturalism is not limited to the acceptance of languages. I agree, and that's why I'd recommend the CIA world fact book as a better source of information. Let's look at some examples:

China: Han Chinese 91.5%

Japan: Japanese 98.5%

India: Indo-Aryan 72%, Dravidian 25%

Saudi Arabia: Arab 90%

Not exactly what I would call diverse.

By the way, Japan, the second largest economy in the world, is facing a labor shortage due to an aging population, and they're trying to solve it with the use of machines rather than immigration, but xenophobia is supposedly something that's uniquely white.

Oh, and how many Christians or Jews do you suppose you'll find living in Saudi Arabia?

[tango]

... multiculturalism ... it is a specific set of ideas and policies that forsake integration and unity and embrace rather division and segregation.

hunh?

Can you provide a link to those "policies"?

[tango]

Certainly multiculturalism is not limited to the acceptance of languages. I agree, and that's why I'd recommend the CIA world fact book as a better source of information. Let's look at some examples:

China: Han Chinese 91.5%

Japan: Japanese 98.5%

India: Indo-Aryan 72%, Dravidian 25%

Saudi Arabia: Arab 90%

Not exactly what I would call diverse.

By the way, Japan, the second largest economy in the world, is facing a labor shortage due to an aging population, and they're trying to solve it with the use of machines rather than immigration, but xenophobia is supposedly something that's uniquely white.

Oh, and how many Christians or Jews do you suppose you'll find living in Saudi Arabia?

Link please. I'd like to see the rest of the countries. Obviously you've been cherry picking.

Edited September 2, 2009 by tango

[justme]

Link please. I'd like to see the rest of the countries. Obviously you've been cherry picking.

Do you not know how to type "CIA world fact book" in google?

As for cherry picking, China and India make up a good chunk of the worlds population and have good economic growth while Japan is the second largest economy in the world with a labor shortage.

I added Saudi Arabia because it's the heart of the Muslim world, which ties into the topic of this thread.

[Mr.Canada]

Do you not know how to type "CIA world fact book" in google?

As for cherry picking, China and India make up a good chunk of the worlds population and have good economic growth while Japan is the second largest economy in the world with a labor shortage.

I added Saudi Arabia because it's the heart of the Muslim world, which ties into the topic of this thread.

It's only important for traditional white countries to be multicultural no one needs to do so. I wonder why it's so wonderful for us but not so good for non white countries.

[daniel]

It's only important for traditional white countries to be multicultural no one needs to do so. I wonder why it's so wonderful for us but not so good for non white countries.

It was our choice. Multiculturalism is one reason why Canada has been consistently listed in the top five best countries in which to live (beaten by Sweden, Finland, etc).

[lictor616]

Link please. I'd like to see the rest of the countries. Obviously you've been cherry picking.

Tango, the burden of proof is on YOU on this one... go ahead and try to remedy the inneficiencies of your education before asking people to give you a power point presentation...

Which would be useless anyway because no amount of sincere and straightforward data will sway you... just like no amount of research or studies will convince a hard hearted Evangelical of evolution... Your belief in the liberal cult stems from faith and religiosity not facts and notions about the REAL world... so it follows that you don't really care about facts one way or the other.

I've actually pointed this very fact out before... the most successful economic nations are HOMOGENEOUS: remember?

Japan is crowded over a few poor islands, with very little in the way of natural resources, has an aging population, labor shortage yet it is 98.5% Japanese racially, and the biggest other non Japanese groups living there are Chinese and Korean and yet Japan manages to have an annual 450 billion dollar trade surplus every year...

China is very similar: 96% homogeneous, with exponential growth, it continues to eat away the gap with the US. The US Is a wasteland of diversity and fittingly has been doing nothing but racking up debt every YEAR since about 1978 (oddly enough in parallel to its increasing diversity)

The US trade deficit with China alone: is estimated at 2.3 trillion dollars... while china operates a 400 BILLION dollar SURPLUS with the US.

Again when you look at the facts you see that multiculturalism is no guarantee of economic viability.. .in fact one could argue that they are mutually exclusive.

Edited September 2, 2009 by lictor616

[lictor616]

It was our choice. Multiculturalism is one reason why Canada has been consistently listed in the top five best countries in which to live (beaten by Sweden, Finland, etc).

by whom? and show through A and B why it is its multiculturalism that is responsible for that...

[jbg]

Link please. I'd like to see the rest of the countries. Obviously you've been cherry picking.

Why don't you show me examples of viable Caucasian communities in India, Pakistan, China, Viet Nam, Sri Lanka, Democratic Kampuchea, Laos, Saudi Arabia, etc.?

Where is Bangladesh's huggy-huggy inclusiveness? On a stage in Madison Square Garden when shaking a tin cup at the world, with help from Bob Dylan, George Harrison, Ringo Starr and Ravi Shankar at the Concert for Bangladesh? Or singing "We are the World"? Would the whites among those singers been welcome in any of the panhandling charity seeking countries?

[scorpio]

Ten thousand fatal terrorist attacks since 911.

And more tens of thousands of innocents killed as collateral damage from US bomb raids. I guess that's okay with you since they were muslims.

Edited September 2, 2009 by scorpio

[daniel]

by whom? and show through A and B why it is its multiculturalism that is responsible for that...

By the citizens and voters of Canada through the governments we elect and confirmed by re-election. Collectively we make our choices and collectively we accept our responsibilities.

[lictor616]

By the citizens and voters of Canada through the governments we elect and confirmed by re-election. Collectively we make our choices and collectively we accept our responsibilities.

nonononono, show how canada's multiculturalism increases its life quality index... show how having say a million nigerians, a sprinkling of mexicans, some haitians make for better living standards in canada...

also you're utterly wrong in claiming that multiculturlism has any sort of democratic legitimacy, NEVER did Canadians EVER vote on the multiculturalism act or any of its subsequent policies.. when do you ever see immigration caps as a electoral party plan? NEVER...

this is outright false.

Edited September 3, 2009 by lictor616

[tango]

Do you not know how to type "CIA world fact book" in google?

As for cherry picking, China and India make up a good chunk of the worlds population and have good economic growth while Japan is the second largest economy in the world with a labor shortage.

I added Saudi Arabia because it's the heart of the Muslim world, which ties into the topic of this thread.

It's customary to provide a link, so people can verify your 'quotes'.

Don't want me to look, eh cherry picker?

We can therefore conclude that the data will show the opposite of what you claim. Thanks.

My point was simply that there are many multicultural countries. It's a natural circumstance. We are late to the game because of restrictive immigration in the first half of the 20th century.

Edited September 3, 2009 by tango

[lictor616]

It's customary to provide a link, so people can verify your 'quotes'.

Don't want me to look, eh cherry picker?

We can therefore conclude that the data will show the opposite of what you claim. Thanks.

he did provide a CIA factbook link... and please don't insult our intelligence by claiming that such regions as Nigeria, India are diverse... and have policies aimed at increasing and encouraging diversity... that's simply brazenly false... and puts the onus on YOU... you give US the evidence for it..

[tango]

http://muslim-canada.org/cdnmuslm.htm

In relation to the general topic ... this is interesting information.

The vast majority of Muslims rely on employment to earn their livelihood. Two of their characteristics are worthy of note. First, they are economic migrants, educated and skilled who add to the country's stock of knowledge, convert knowledge into ideas (patents) and into new expressions of old ideas (copyrights), and help create jobs. Twenty-seven per cent of the Muslims in the prime labour force, age group 25 to 44 years, have one or more university degrees, a proportion much higher than the 17 per cent for the population as a whole.

Second, the motive of their migration to Canada, i.e., to improve their economic well-being and lead a fulfilling life, is reinforced by their beliefs. Every day, five times a day, when Muslims are called to prayers they are also called towards falah , i.e., to achieve well being and the good. And falah is not merely the indulgence of private sanctity but it is also the true state of well-being and proper prosperity fulfilled and realized in social life.

The demographics and work ethics of the Muslim labour force have very significant implications for the cost and funding of the country's social security system, a topic high on the public policy debate these days. Proportionally, they withdraw much less from the system and contribute much more to it than the Canadian population as a whole. Muslim families derive only 4 per cent of their total income from social security programs - old age pensions, unemployment insurance benefits, family allowances, welfare payments, etc. By comparison, this percentage for all families in Canada is 7 per cent. The comparisons are more striking with respect to the financing of the social safety net: while there are only five people working to support one in retirement in the country, among Muslims there are 15 workers to support each retiree.

Numbers do not fully convey their economic contribution. Muslims participated in almost every major event in the economic history of Canada. They hewed rocks, laid tracks and struck nails to build the Canadian Pacific railway in the late 19th century, an event dubbed the "national dream" because of its importance. Muslim farmers were among the pioneers who opened up Alberta and Saskatchewan for cultivation and settlement in the beginning of the 20th century. Skilled and professional Muslim immigrants kept up the tempo of economic growth in the 1960s and 1970s. Muslim educators responded to the need for teachers and professors as the baby boom of the post-Second World War period rolled into grade schools and then graduate schools, thus strengthening the foundation for a secure and prosperous economic future for the country.

...

The uncertainties, self doubts and social solecism, so pervasive in the early phases of the settlement of a new community, lingered on for a long time. Nearly a century passed before the Muslims gave public expression to their presence and identity. An affirmation of the human ability to persist and endure, a testament to the fervency of the faith of the Muslims of Edmonton, the first public announcement of the presence of the community of believers in Islam in Canada, and the first public expression that they had laid their roots in the new land, Al-Rashid mosque the first in North America - opened its doors on December 12, 1938. With the mayor of Edmonton in attendance and a Christian as the master of ceremonies, Abdullah Yusuf Ali - the most famous English translator of the Qur'an -- performed the dedication ceremony.

I guess little mosque on the prairie is a reality!

[daniel]

nonononono, show how canada's multiculturalism increases its life quality index... show how having say a million nigerians, a sprinkling of mexicans, some haitians make for better living standards in canada...

Thanks, Tango. Plus the fact that Canada is one of the few places in the world where all these various groups of people actually live amongst each other without the conflicts as compared to other countries - well not until nipper-tipping came along.

also you're utterly wrong in claiming that multiculturlism has any sort of democratic legitimacy, NEVER did Canadians EVER vote on the multiculturalism act or any of its subsequent policies.. when do you ever see immigration caps as a electoral party plan? NEVER...

this is outright false.

Ha Ha It's clear you don't understand the parliamentary system of democracy. We don't hold a referendum on every bill.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Al-Rashid mosque the first in North America - opened its doors on December 12, 1938..... [/i]

Nonsense....it may have been the first mosque in Canada, but not North America, as mosques existed in Maine, Connecticut, and New York many years before.

Edited September 3, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[tango]

Nonsense....it may have been the first mosque in Canada, but not North America, as mosques existed in Maine, Connecticut, and New York many years before.

Link?

Never mind ...

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/200...07f60322f70603e

North Dakota Is Home to First U.S. Mosque

And sometime around 1929 or 1930, when they realized they would be staying in North Dakota, working as farmers and raising their families here, the Lebanese community decided to build a mosque.

I guess you are right about being first, though not the location.

Edited September 3, 2009 by tango

[bush_cheney2004]

Link?

OK...if you insist on seeing the obvious:

http://www.muslimsinamerica.org/index.php?...7&Itemid=28

http://www.amp.ghazali.net/html/mosques_in_us.html

The first mosque in America was probably build by Albanian Muslims in 1915 in Maine. By 1919, they had established another mosque in Connecticut. Polish-speaking Tatars build a mosque in Brooklyn, NY in 1926, which is still in use. African American Muslims established the first Mosque in Pittsburgh, PA in 1930. The Lebanese Community of Cedar Rapids, Iowa, opened its first mosque in 1935. The State Street Mosque in New York City was established by Sheikh Dawood Ahmed Faisal in 1955. This mosque represents a special point in the development of the American Muslim community. The Dar-ul-Islam movement began from there.

Edited September 3, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

[tango]

It looks like everyone is claiming the first!

[bush_cheney2004]

It looks like everyone is claiming the first!

Sorry, but first North American mosque in Edmonton (1938) just didn't pass the smell test......play again soon.

[justme]

http://muslim-canada.org/cdnmuslm.htm

In relation to the general topic ... this is interesting information.

The vast majority of Muslims rely on employment to earn their livelihood. Two of their characteristics are worthy of note. First, they are economic migrants, educated and skilled who add to the country's stock of knowledge, convert knowledge into ideas (patents) and into new expressions of old ideas (copyrights), and help create jobs. Twenty-seven per cent of the Muslims in the prime labour force, age group 25 to 44 years, have one or more university degrees, a proportion much higher than the 17 per cent for the population as a whole.

Second, the motive of their migration to Canada, i.e., to improve their economic well-being and lead a fulfilling life, is reinforced by their beliefs. Every day, five times a day, when Muslims are called to prayers they are also called towards falah , i.e., to achieve well being and the good. And falah is not merely the indulgence of private sanctity but it is also the true state of well-being and proper prosperity fulfilled and realized in social life.

The demographics and work ethics of the Muslim labour force have very significant implications for the cost and funding of the country's social security system, a topic high on the public policy debate these days. Proportionally, they withdraw much less from the system and contribute much more to it than the Canadian population as a whole. Muslim families derive only 4 per cent of their total income from social security programs - old age pensions, unemployment insurance benefits, family allowances, welfare payments, etc. By comparison, this percentage for all families in Canada is 7 per cent. The comparisons are more striking with respect to the financing of the social safety net: while there are only five people working to support one in retirement in the country, among Muslims there are 15 workers to support each retiree.

Numbers do not fully convey their economic contribution. Muslims participated in almost every major event in the economic history of Canada. They hewed rocks, laid tracks and struck nails to build the Canadian Pacific railway in the late 19th century, an event dubbed the "national dream" because of its importance. Muslim farmers were among the pioneers who opened up Alberta and Saskatchewan for cultivation and settlement in the beginning of the 20th century. Skilled and professional Muslim immigrants kept up the tempo of economic growth in the 1960s and 1970s. Muslim educators responded to the need for teachers and professors as the baby boom of the post-Second World War period rolled into grade schools and then graduate schools, thus strengthening the foundation for a secure and prosperous economic future for the country.

...

The uncertainties, self doubts and social solecism, so pervasive in the early phases of the settlement of a new community, lingered on for a long time. Nearly a century passed before the Muslims gave public expression to their presence and identity. An affirmation of the human ability to persist and endure, a testament to the fervency of the faith of the Muslims of Edmonton, the first public announcement of the presence of the community of believers in Islam in Canada, and the first public expression that they had laid their roots in the new land, Al-Rashid mosque the first in North America - opened its doors on December 12, 1938. With the mayor of Edmonton in attendance and a Christian as the master of ceremonies, Abdullah Yusuf Ali - the most famous English translator of the Qur'an -- performed the dedication ceremony.

I guess little mosque on the prairie is a reality!

Then why is it that Saudi Arabia has double digit unemployment with the largest oil reserves in the world?

Why is it that Singapore has an unemployment rate of 2.2% (2008) while on the other side of the Malacca Straits people from Indonesia resort to pirating?

Can you name one Muslim country that you'd be willing to give up your Canadian citizenship to live in? If not, why?

[Guest American Woman]

Can you name one Muslim country that you'd be willing to give up your Canadian citizenship to live in? If not, why?

I can't think of one country, Muslim or otherwise, that I'd be willing to give up my citizenship to live in. Would you give yours up to live anywhere else? If so, why?

[lictor616]

Thanks, Tango. Plus the fact that Canada is one of the few places in the world where all these various groups of people actually live amongst each other without the conflicts as compared to other countries - well not until nipper-tipping came along.

Ha Ha It's clear you don't understand the parliamentary system of democracy. We don't hold a referendum on every bill.

you really are avoiding this pretty simple straightforward question..

earlier you amde the assertion that:

Daniel:

"It was our choice. Multiculturalism is one reason why Canada has been consistently listed in the top five best countries in which to live (beaten by Sweden, Finland, etc)."

to which I asked you to show us through A and B how Canada's multiculturalism is the reason why its comparative life quality index is so high.

Canada IS listed as among the best countries to live in... but how is this a product of having say 400 000 haitians, 500 000 indians, a sprinkling of Nigerians etc... How does "diversity" increase the indexes that make for life quality? Its a reasonable question I think.

I also asked you to provide evidence of DEMOCRATIC legitimacy... for the multiculturalism Act... was a referendum presented for its acceptance? Where THE PEOPLE (not - "elected" representatives) consulted?

the answer is NO... NEVER where the Canadian people permitted to vote DIRECTLY on the issue... so flood style immigration and "diversity" are NOT democratiaclly legitimate in this country.... sorry better luck next time.

Edited September 3, 2009 by lictor616