A Conversation About Race

[lictor616]

Returning to the "church" would not be helpful..nor would returning to state sponsored religion be helpful..far as I am concerened neither of these things have anything to do with the very early Christian movement. I do agree on the eradication of evil - religion is evil..yes that's a bold and cold statement and perhaps to radical for the typical fundie to absorb - so what! The concepts of good and evil should not be ignored and the concept of life - and goodness or God should not be ignored. It sure would be nice if we simplified things - that if you do this - destructions results - If you do that - prosperity peace and happiness prevails - Christianity was a movement based in logic - not smoke and mirrors and virgins and a bunch of Paulist shit..that is the begining of what we call politics..

What you seem to resent is not the goodness or the God factor, but the crap that is religious control and abuse..Christianity was about resisting the state and the power and dignity of the individual - we have removed human dignity - through religion AND secularization.

the concepts of good and evil are not dependent on a primitive mythology that came out of a squalid pesthole in the middle east...

The bible contradicts itself on 300 occasions (I own a book that goes through each one in detail).

Christianity was all about the Church BEING THE STATE AND THE INDIVIDUAL.

oh why bother, why don't you go and debate with you fellow fugitives from reality.

[Oleg Bach]

the concepts of good and evil are not dependent on a primitive mythology that came out of a squalid pesthole in the middle east...

The bible contradicts itself on 300 occasions (I own a book that goes through each one in detail).

Christianity was all about the Church BEING THE STATE AND THE INDIVIDUAL.

oh why bother, why don't you go and debate with you fellow fugitives from reality.

Gotten to the point that I agree with you on the squalid pesthole in the middle east. Yes it's old hat about the"300" contraditions - do you think you are talking to some typical dumby in these regards? "fugitives from reality" ? You are so prejudice and reactionary - looks like you have become what you detest..you're acting just like some lunitic that IS religious...I am not here to debate this crap _ I wasted enough time in that area. You had better learn to listen _ I am not disagreeing with you - but the second you see the word Christ - or God you go bonkers - so reactionary that your judgement is clouded - THERE IS ONLY ONE THING I decerned about what Christ embraced and taught - it was the concept that you must totally embrace REALITY ( truth) ..don't jump on me because 2000 years of a holes twisted this into religion... BUT if you ---yes YOU believe that death and life or right and wrong -- or good and evil are useless concepts - then you have a problem..somethings are just plain bad ....

Which brings me to the definition of the word BAD - originally it came from the very old word "baddle" which meant effeminate -- or in other words a man that had no honour and did not behave as a MAN - seems the world is full of girly men - just remember in the future ---you are not dealing with a hetro-flag...or a boy - YOU are dealing with a MAN...and that is my point...do you have honour and can you be trusted - and is your word good?

[lictor616]

THERE IS ONLY ONE THING I decerned about what Christ embraced and taught - it was the concept that you must totally embrace REALITY ( truth)

no, the concept is that you must believe IN SPITE OF THE EVIDENCE, IN SPITE OF TRUTH.

you might as well drop it Oleg... you're dealing with an integral atheist here that sees chrisitinaity as a spiritual syphilis.

[Oleg Bach]

no, the concept is that you must believe IN SPITE OF THE EVIDENCE, IN SPITE OF TRUTH.

you might as well drop it Oleg... you're dealing with an integral atheist here that sees chrisitinaity as a spiritual syphilis.

You used the word "spiritual" and that christianity...is a disease that infected the spirit rather than support it...you are not that much of an atheist - you are a pragmatist..much like myself..so you may as well drop it also. IF I looked at that rot that is old testimonial judaism - I have no use for the glorification of crimminality and violence - It was religion that killed Christ - Christianity never reached the populace..ever...also - this Christ guy was a rebel and never once suggested creating a religion - I find maybe one or two verses in NT - attributed to the rebel - the rest I tossed out ---because my logic dictated - that the bulk is a lie.

[CANADIEN]

Racism is ingrained in all of us. Even when its not completely obvious in a particular interaction between people, it is still there, below the surface. There is a natural, or at least initial, distrust when encountering someone of a different race or culture, and this may be a normal defense mechanism. Since there has been such a long history of race hatred and misunderstanding, it adds to the distrust. But once we establish that the other person is not a threat, most people don't have a problem after that. I think thats the difference right there, between a normal persons reaction and that of a racist.

Well put.

[CANADIEN]

no no you clearly do, your double standards are quite obvious in determining this. You apply a different set of guidelines concerning racism to whites then you do for minorities.

you think nothing of the racist policy of affirmative action

Apart from clearly saying I believe it's wrong. Usual lictor intellectual dishonesty.

[Malaclypse the Younger]

reverse the races ... and we have nothing... why do we scarcely hear of the 37 000 annual rapes of white women at the hands of blacks? Where are the human rights court? the hate crime accusations?

Probably because the news doesn't report every single rape, and when it does, it doesn't necessarily report the skin colour of the people involved. How many white men rape white women every year? Does it really make a difference, when the most important factor in the issue of rape is sexual assault, and not skin colour?

Edited August 3, 2009 by Malaclypse the Younger

[JB Globe]

I am a white male who has never experienced "anti-white racism" in my entire life. I also have never heard of any white male acquaintances experiencing this either.

Given the fact that I live in Toronto, and interact with people who aren't white on a regular basis, and in a variety of situations, if this was as common as you and other random internet posters are claiming, than surely I would have experienced, or at least know someone who has experienced at least one example of it by now, but I haven't.

Also given how there are no statistics to back up any of your claims, the only LOGICAL conclusion is that you are either deliberately misleading people about this issue, you are ignorant of the actual facts, or you are deluding yourself.

I find a good litmus test for people like you is to ask you specific personal questions, such as:

Where do you live?

What kind of relationships do you have with people who do not share your ethnicity?

When was the last time you had a serious discussion with someone of another ethnicity than you about race-issues?

Generally two things come out if the person answers these question:

It becomes clear they either live in a community where there are little/no people present who are of a different ethnicity OR they live in a highly segregated community and have had little/no interaction with people of other ethnicities.

Meaning, it becomes clear that they don't have any actual personal reason to have come to this line of thinking, and since there aren't any substantial objective facts that support their argument of White Superiority either, the don't really have much to stand on.

But generally, people do not answer these questions, because to admit that they have never had a conversation with someone who isn't white, and never experienced "anti-white racism" would make it seem like they were creating a problem where none exists, and that the motive for their views has more to do with loosing WHITE PRIVILEGE than loosing equal status.

Edited August 3, 2009 by JB Globe

[CANADIEN]

Probably because the news doesn't report every single rape, and when it does, it doesn't necessarily report the skin colour of the people involved. How many white men rape white women every year? Does it really make a difference, when the most important factor in the issue of rape is sexual assault, and not skin colour?

Two-thirds of reported sexual assaults are committed by people the victim already know.

[CANADIEN]

I am a white male who has never experienced "anti-white racism" in my entire life. I also have never heard of any white male acquaintances experiencing this either.

Given the fact that I live in Toronto, and interact with people who aren't white on a regular basis, and in a variety of situations, if this was as common as you and other random internet posters are claiming, than surely I would have experienced, or at least know someone who has experienced at least one example of it by now, but I haven't.

Also given how there are no statistics to back up any of your claims, the only LOGICAL conclusion is that you are either deliberately misleading people about this issue, you are ignorant of the actual facts, or you are deluding yourself.

I find a good litmus test for people like you is to ask you specific personal questions, such as:

Where do you live?

What kind of relationships do you have with people who do not share your ethnicity?

When was the last time you had a serious discussion with someone of another ethnicity than you about race-issues?

Generally two things come out if the person answers these question:

It becomes clear they either live in a community where there are little/no people present who are of a different ethnicity OR they live in a highly segregated community and have had little/no interaction with people of other ethnicities.

Meaning, it becomes clear that they don't have any actual personal reason to have come to this line of thinking, and since there aren't any substantial objective facts that support their argument of White Superiority either, the don't really have much to stand on.

But generally, people do not answer these questions, because to admit that they have never had a conversation with someone who isn't white, and never experienced "anti-white racism" would make it seem like they were creating a problem where none exists, and that the motive for their views has more to do with loosing WHITE PRIVILEGE than loosing equal status.

Well put.

And I cannot say I have experience anti-White racism personnally either..

I know people who have though.

[M.Dancer]

I have never experianced anti white racism either. Once, years ago I applied for a job and I din't get it. I followed up and the fellow says it was close the final two were myself and the person he hired but in the end he made the gut decision and went for the other guy.

So I said to him something like....as along as your decison had nothing to do with me being a promiscuous black clun footed lesbian I'm sure I can move on and get this behind me.

"I think I may have made a mistake" he answered.

[M.Dancer]

Apart from clearly saying I believe it's wrong. Usual lictor intellectual dishonesty.

Too many words. There was no need to include intellectual in the post.

[charter.rights]

Well put.

And I cannot say I have experience anti-White racism personnally either..

Neither have I experienced anti-White racism.

I also find those who claim to experience white racism to be exaggerating the idea of it, along with a paranoia mind set that invites labeling of any anti-jack-ass experiences as racism.

[DogOnPorch]

Neither have I experienced anti-White racism.

I also find those who claim to experience white racism to be exaggerating the idea of it, along with a paranoia mind set that invites labeling of any anti-jack-ass experiences as racism.

There we go...fixed.

[charter.rights]

There we go...fixed.

Nope. You still have it wrong.

Rarely does a person of colour in my experience, complain about racism when the facts don't support it. Most of the times I have seen racism at work, it is minimized by the mainstream and in fact is much worse than the victim can convey.

You see, racists and bigots are practiced at keeping just below the radar, issuing racist offenses but staying just short of hate speech. They use all kinds of seemingly convincing arguments and pseudo facts to back up their position, while clearly attempting to define the racial inferiority in their comparison to their own "whiteness". And most the time, just as Licker does, they confuse culture and religion with race in an attempt to reinforce their bigoted position.

The point is that most of the time, in my experience, racism exists to the denial of the Caucasian mainstream and those that complain there is reverse racism occurring are more often than not, being targeted because they are idiots and jack-asses, and not because of their "white" race (which by the way doesn't exist).

[CANADIEN]

Nope. You still have it wrong.

Rarely does a person of colour in my experience, complain about racism when the facts don't support it. Most of the times I have seen racism at work, it is minimized by the mainstream and in fact is much worse than the victim can convey.

Actually, I have seen it happen.

You see, racists and bigots are practiced at keeping just below the radar, issuing racist offenses but staying just short of hate speech. They use all kinds of seemingly convincing arguments and pseudo facts to back up their position, while clearly attempting to define the racial inferiority in their comparison to their own "whiteness". And most the time, just as Licker does, they confuse culture and religion with race in an attempt to reinforce their bigoted position.

Also done by racists of all skin tones.

[DogOnPorch]

Nope. You still have it wrong.

Rarely does a person of colour in my experience, complain about racism when the facts don't support it. Most of the times I have seen racism at work, it is minimized by the mainstream and in fact is much worse than the victim can convey.

You see, racists and bigots are practiced at keeping just below the radar, issuing racist offenses but staying just short of hate speech. They use all kinds of seemingly convincing arguments and pseudo facts to back up their position, while clearly attempting to define the racial inferiority in their comparison to their own "whiteness". And most the time, just as Licker does, they confuse culture and religion with race in an attempt to reinforce their bigoted position.

The point is that most of the time, in my experience, racism exists to the denial of the Caucasian mainstream and those that complain there is reverse racism occurring are more often than not, being targeted because they are idiots and jack-asses, and not because of their "white" race (which by the way doesn't exist).

Hardly wrong...everyone and anyone can experience racism.

I'd go as far and say that racism is built into a multicultural society like ours. Terms like visible minority for example. There's a billion or so Chinese on the planet and they're a "visible minority" that apparently needs cultural protection in Canada. Meanwhile mine...German/Canadian...tends to be lumped in with every other Caucasian Tom, Dick and/or Harry and has to carry the same bagage as those cultures even if my lot had zero to do with them. That is to say...German Canadians ARE a minority...just apparently not visible enough to due to the colour of my skin.

Another would be 'family reunification' where immigrants get to apply for the rest of their family after 'x' amount (3 years I think) of time in Canada. If you were born here like I was, I don't think we'd be able to get away with bringing the rest of the family over from the Old Country in this manner. You'd probably have to ask an immigration lawyer if it was even possible.

I think it would be much less of a problem if the rest of the planet was actually practicing multiculturalism...but they aren't. If we were clever, we'd only be taking immigrants from countries who also fully practice multiculturalism. But, I don't think that's the goal of immigration to Canada.

[Remiel]

If we were clever, we'd only be taking immigrants from countries who also fully practice multiculturalism.

I do not think I would call that clever, as we are pretty much the only country that practices it "fully", are we not? I do not think zero immigration is a goal for any sane person.

[charter.rights]

Hardly wrong...everyone and anyone can experience racism.

I'd go as far and say that racism is built into a multicultural society like ours. Terms like visible minority for example. There's a billion or so Chinese on the planet and they're a "visible minority" that apparently needs cultural protection in Canada. Meanwhile mine...German/Canadian...tends to be lumped in with every other Caucasian Tom, Dick and/or Harry and has to carry the same bagage as those cultures even if my lot had zero to do with them. That is to say...German Canadians ARE a minority...just apparently not visible enough to due to the colour of my skin.

Another would be 'family reunification' where immigrants get to apply for the rest of their family after 'x' amount (3 years I think) of time in Canada. If you were born here like I was, I don't think we'd be able to get away with bringing the rest of the family over from the Old Country in this manner. You'd probably have to ask an immigration lawyer if it was even possible.

I think it would be much less of a problem if the rest of the planet was actually practicing multiculturalism...but they aren't. If we were clever, we'd only be taking immigrants from countries who also fully practice multiculturalism. But, I don't think that's the goal of immigration to Canada.

Yes still wrong. Being of German/Canadian descent is not racism. It might be a cultural bias but it is not racism. Neither does a cultural bias diminish another group through the promotion of hate for purely visual reasons.

Immigration is what it is. If the first white people from France, Netherlands and Britain hadn't immigrated here in the first place, Canada would be a much different place, for sure. We're all immigrants in some form or another (except the original people of course) so if not for accepting a multicultural society, the natives could have easily just killed off the first few pilgrims and changed history, instead of accepting them into their communities.

Your ideas on immigration are so...Victorian...and being so it would be likely if the government were to implement some of them your family would have been excluded long ago.

As far as I am concerned (generally speaking of course) it is a good thing that German/Canadians are lumped in with all other national Caucasian descendants since, by far Germans descendants are not the creme of that crop.

[DogOnPorch]

Yes still wrong. Being of German/Canadian descent is not racism. It might be a cultural bias but it is not racism. Neither does a cultural bias diminish another group through the promotion of hate for purely visual reasons.

Immigration is what it is. If the first white people from France, Netherlands and Britain hadn't immigrated here in the first place, Canada would be a much different place, for sure. We're all immigrants in some form or another (except the original people of course) so if not for accepting a multicultural society, the natives could have easily just killed off the first few pilgrims and changed history, instead of accepting them into their communities.

Your ideas on immigration are so...Victorian...and being so it would be likely if the government were to implement some of them your family would have been excluded long ago.

As far as I am concerned (generally speaking of course) it is a good thing that German/Canadians are lumped in with all other national Caucasian descendants since, by far Germans descendants are not the creme of that crop.

No still right.

Being discriminated by the colour of my skin for any reason is indeed racism. Institutionalized racism at that. Most Canadians have just been literally brainwashed into thinking it is anything else but racism.

Native Indians are also immigrants to Canada. They either came here from Asia a very long time ago or came from the (what is now) USA during the various Indian Wars. But you're the one with the sprouted like mushrooms theory...no?

My ideas on immigration and multiculturalism are rational...Victorian if you like to call it that. That's not an insult though you want it to be. It should be a two-way street with special rules for all or none.

As for your comments on German-Canadians...they were plenty productive and never asked for hand-outs. Their dry-plains farming techniques allowed the Canadian and American prairies to be farmed en masse. When WW2 came, many joined the Canadian military...like my family here did even though the other half of the family fought for Germany.

Since I can only guess at your heritage...who knows how productive your lot was?

Edited August 5, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

I do not think I would call that clever, as we are pretty much the only country that practices it "fully", are we not? I do not think zero immigration is a goal for any sane person.

Then other countries best get on the ball if they want fellows like me to support multiculturalism. Otherwise...call me a detractor.

[Argus]

Nope. You still have it wrong.

Rarely does a person of colour in my experience, complain about racism when the facts don't support it.

I used to work as a security guard, and met many Somalians. They weren't a bright lot, and their language skills were sub-par. They were, to a man, always looking for the easy score, the cheap mark. None had any interest in education, or in getting skills training, ie, going to a college to learn how to fix cars or refrigerators or whatnot. Every one of them was sure that the only reason they weren't in some kind of big, important, well-paid job was because Canada was racist towards Black people. Whenever anyone complained about them (they were lazy and rarely did their jobs properly) they would instantly claim it was because of racism.

[CANADIEN]

I used to work as a security guard, and met many Somalians. They weren't a bright lot, and their language skills were sub-par. They were, to a man, always looking for the easy score, the cheap mark. None had any interest in education, or in getting skills training, ie, going to a college to learn how to fix cars or refrigerators or whatnot. Every one of them was sure that the only reason they weren't in some kind of big, important, well-paid job was because Canada was racist towards Black people. Whenever anyone complained about them (they were lazy and rarely did their jobs properly) they would instantly claim it was because of racism.

All of them. Without any exception. i certainly will not claim to have met as many Somalians as you, but the few my employer has hired over the years as summer students or temps were good workers, and good learners.

Edited August 5, 2009 by CANADIEN

[Remiel]

They weren't a bright lot, and their language skills were sub-par.

It is a common fallacy to associate less intelligence with those who speak your language poorly than with those who speak it well.

[tango]

QUOTE (Argus @ Aug 5 2009, 09:51 AM) *

They weren't a bright lot, and their language skills were sub-par.

It is a common fallacy to associate less intelligence with those who speak your language poorly than with those who speak it well.

It's also a fallacy to assume that all other Somalians have the same characteristics as the ones you happened to meet, Argus.