Canadian Defends Anti-Medicare Ad

Bryan · July 29, 2009

You can set Shona's saga aside....utilization of US capacity by the provinces is real and part of their planning process.

What they plan for is guaranteed delivery of service from the closest available centre. It's utilization of capacity outside of the province, regardless of where that might be. There could be spots available all over the country, but if one in the US is closer, they'll take that. Could be lots of capacity in Winnipeg or Halifax, but if there's a spot in Seattle, Vancouver is going to use that one because it's closer.

bush_cheney2004 · July 29, 2009

Know what I find funny BC is talking like no American ever comes up here for their medical needs. My uncle was in a MS drug trail and there was more Americans in the trail then Canadians.

Sure there were.....but the US does not have universal access for care mandated by law. Canada does.

Is that funny too?

bush_cheney2004 · July 29, 2009

What they plan for is guaranteed delivery of service from the closest available centre. It's utilization of capacity outside of the province, regardless of where that might be. There could be spots available all over the country, but if one in the US is closer, they'll take that. Could be lots of capacity in Winnipeg or Halifax, but if there's a spot in Seattle, Vancouver is going to use that one because it's closer.

Correct...the USA is most certainly "outside the province".

punked · July 29, 2009

Sure there were.....but the US does not have universal access for care mandated by law......Yet

There I fixed it for you.

Edited July 29, 2009 by punked

Smallc · July 29, 2009

We have anecdotal evidence in this forum that there actually exists the expectation that US facilities are always an option if one asks and has urgent needs.

Yes, that's right, they are, because the vast majority of the (like almost always) we get the care we need, when we need it, no matter where it comes from. People from many countries go to many other countries to get care, and Canada is no different. It's also unreasonable to expect a country with such a small population that is so relatively spread out to have every procedure that the US does. Sometimes there is a very rare treatment that is only available in the US. Chances are, a Canadian that needs the procedure done will get it and have it mostly or completely paid for. Can you say the same for most Americans?

And no, Manitoba doesn't use US facilities all that much. Except for MRIs, we've done a good job in getting the things we need here in recent years. We do send people to Toronto and Edmonton (as well as some US cities) from time to time for special treatments that a province with just over 1M people doesn't have though.

Edited July 29, 2009 by Smallc

Bryan · July 29, 2009

Correct...the USA is most certainly "outside the province".

Right, but it has nothing to do with the American system, it's just geography. You go where it's closest, it's guaranteed, and it's fully covered for everyone. If Halifax was the closest you'd there, it Brussels was the closest you'd go there.

Besides, you act as if this is a common occurrence. It happens so seldom, that it's not even part of the discussion up here. I've certainly never seen it. Nobody I know has ever been sent to the states for anything. I realize n=1, but I'm just saying, it's nowhere near as common as you guys are led to believe down there.

Smallc · July 29, 2009

I know of one guy who was sent t the US for an advanced surgery that wasn't available in Canada (something to do with the location of a tumor in relation to a certain nerve that controls leg movement). It was paid for almost completely by Manitoba Health and he said that the most expensive part of his trip was the hotel room that his wife needed to stay in.

bush_cheney2004 · July 29, 2009

Right, but it has nothing to do with the American system, it's just geography. You go where it's closest, it's guaranteed, and it's fully covered for everyone. If Halifax was the closest you'd there, it Brussels was the closest you'd go there.

So you do not see the paradox of the "better" system needing the extra capacity and technology provided by the fee-for-service system.

Besides, you act as if this is a common occurrence. It happens so seldom, that it's not even part of the discussion up here. I've certainly never seen it. Nobody I know has ever been sent to the states for anything. I realize n=1, but I'm just saying, it's nowhere near as common as you guys are led to believe down there.

I have already posted documentation of over 400 urgent revascularizations in the USA just from Ontario. Neo-natal facilities utilization is another common occurrence. There are even emergency border procedures to expedite care.

Jerry J. Fortin · July 29, 2009

So you do not see the paradox of the "better" system needing the extra capacity and technology provided by the fee-for-service system.
I have already posted documentation of over 400 urgent revascularizations in the USA just from Ontario. Neo-natal facilities utilization is another common occurrence. There are even emergency border procedures to expedite care.

Hey BC how is this a bad thing when our people need help and our system can't do the job, then we pay to send the people to where they can get help. What is wrong with that?

bush_cheney2004 · July 29, 2009

Hey BC how is this a bad thing when our people need help and our system can't do the job, then we pay to send the people to where they can get help. What is wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with that at all. The point of this exercise is to demonstrate that the excess capacity and technology exists largely because of the for-profit "system"...which includes Big Pharma. If a Canadian needs urgent care across the border, it is not found just growing on trees.

Jerry J. Fortin · July 29, 2009

There is nothing wrong with that at all. The point of this exercise is to demonstrate that the excess capacity and technology exists largely because of the for-profit "system"...which includes Big Pharma. If a Canadian needs urgent care across the border, it is not found just growing on trees.

Good point BC. You realize that on the tax payers dime any over capacity is excessive and costly right?

bush_cheney2004 · July 29, 2009

Good point BC. You realize that on the tax payers dime any over capacity is excessive and costly right?

Yes, but the provinces are far from having such a "problem"....by design....and hence rationing by queue. Do you recommend that the US adopt a similar system just to save taxpayer money?

M.Dancer · July 29, 2009

There is nothing wrong with that at all. The point of this exercise is to demonstrate that the excess capacity and technology exists largely because of the for-profit "system"...which includes Big Pharma. If a Canadian needs urgent care across the border, it is not found just growing on trees.

You also must consider that the excess capacity, while there is no argument that the capacity exists in the first instance because of the for profit system, the excess capacity may exist in part because many might feel they have no access to it.

I think and believe the area where we do have the advantage is not the treatments of the last resort but in the every day see your doctor for a check up kind of access. It has been said elsewhere one of the reasons why our infant mortality rate is lower than the US is every mother can get prenatal care (without undue wait) and post natal care...in the US there are those who fall in between the cracks who earn too much for free care and don't feel they can afford insurance who simply don't bother to visit a doctor for a prostate exam or a colonoscopy or prenatal care. Here we do.

On the anecdotal side, my son has been complaining about headaches so I called our paediatrician. P{honed before the office was open, got acalled back at 9:30 had a 1:15 appointment. Saw the doc at..1:15 and she did a battery of tests...thinks the little bugger might need glasses. Phoned our optometrist when I got home and he has an appointment this thursday.

Bryan · July 29, 2009

And no, Manitoba doesn't use US facilities all that much. Except for MRIs, we've done a good job in getting the things we need here in recent years.

Even MRIs are nowhere near as bad as people think. On separate incidents, my son and I have have both gotten MRIs within a few hours.

My only complaint about healthcare here in Manitoba is that the Province should never have taken over Pan Am Clinic. It used to be a shining example of how ALL healthcare should be delivered in this country. It's just another hospital now. Thankfully there are still other clinics in the city that operate similar to the way Pan Am used to.

bush_cheney2004 · July 29, 2009

You also must consider that the excess capacity, while there is no argument that the capacity exists in the first instance because of the for profit system, the excess capacity may exist in part because many might feel they have no access to it.

Not sure what you mean by this....the expensive labs and therapies exist in excess primarily because of competiton for health care dollars, not universal access. The same thing happens for veterinary care.

I think and believe the area where we do have the advantage is not the treatments of the last resort but in the every day see your doctor for a check up kind of access. It has been said elsewhere one of the reasons why our infant mortality rate is lower than the US is every mother can get prenatal care (without undue wait) and post natal care...in the US there are those who fall in between the cracks who earn too much for free care and don't feel they can afford insurance who simply don't bother to visit a doctor for a prostate exam or a colonoscopy or prenatal care. Here we do.

Maybe.....here is the list of leading infant mortality causes in the USA:

http://dying.about.com/od/causes/tp/infantdeath.htm

jbg · July 29, 2009

Actually no. Americans keep claiming that because US hospitals won't let people bleed out they somehow have universal health care plus.

It isn't quite universal health care. OTOH it does mean that poor people aren't just swept off the sidewalk.

The end result is our system provides equivalent care at no direct cost.

Who pays for it, Santa Claus? More to the point who keeps hypochondriacs, from using the system abusively since it is apparently "free" to users?

Yes people die and according to all the stats they die younger and more often in the US.

As Chretien said, if Kyoto isn't passed people will start to die in 30 years. Most people do die. It's inevitable.

Meaning my experience is greater then yours and your no doubt rewarding baskin robbins career.

Huh? Edited July 29, 2009 by jbg

M.Dancer · July 29, 2009

Not sure what you mean by this....the expensive labs and therapies exist in excess primarily because of competiton for health care dollars, not universal access. The same thing happens for veterinary care.

Oh I agree. I bet there are 10s of 1000 who drown rover rather than pay a vet. Now if everyone could see a vet, there would be less drownings and less over capacity..the same applies to people doctors.

bush_cheney2004 · July 29, 2009

Even MRIs are nowhere near as bad as people think. On separate incidents, my son and I have have both gotten MRIs within a few hours.

Manitoba is currently reporting non-emergency MRI waits as many weeks (maximum).

http://www.manitoba.ca/health/waittime/diagnostic/mri.html

jbg · July 29, 2009

Right back at you sunshine. You complain about me my behaviour yet you didn't say thing one about him being an ass to me first.

Fixed.

Smallc · July 29, 2009

My only complaint about healthcare here in Manitoba is that the Province should never have taken over Pan Am Clinic. It used to be a shining example of how ALL healthcare should be delivered in this country. It's just another hospital now. Thankfully there are still other clinics in the city that operate similar to the way Pan Am used to.

You can wait months for an MRI now for minor cases, and it wasn't like that a short time ago, but the wait has grown since they a ) stopped sending patients to the MRI at the Maples Clinic because of the crappy image quality, and b ) allowed all urban doctors to refer people for MRIs. Before it was only rural doctors and specialists that could send people for MRIs.

As for the Pan Am, yes, it is run like a hospital (it's now a foundation, which the province created after buying it). This was done partly because of the need to have another MRI available within the system at all time. They know they can depend on the US because it falls under the WRHA, when before they had to fit in between other things that were going on.

On another not, I've personally seen how fast the system can work twice in recent time. One involved an aunt who had a gall bladder that was severely inflamed (she had to eventually have it removed at St. Boniface) and the other time involved a person who was suspected of having a stroke. He was rushed to the hospital 40 mins away, sent for an immediate CT at the closest facility with one, and is now beginning therapy to undo the damage that was done. The first incident also occurred while the same hospital was full of flu victims. I was surprised how fast it all worked.

M.Dancer · July 29, 2009

Maybe.....here is the list of leading infant mortality causes in the USA:
http://dying.about.com/od/causes/tp/infantdeath.htm

1,2 ,4 and 5 can be treated often by prenatal care.

Smallc · July 29, 2009

Manitoba is currently reporting non-emergency MRI waits as many weeks (maximum).
http://www.manitoba.ca/health/waittime/diagnostic/mri.html

Yes...it's a good thing we have 2 (or is it 3?) MRIs on order.

bush_cheney2004 · July 29, 2009

Oh I agree. I bet there are 10s of 1000 who drown rover rather than pay a vet. Now if everyone could see a vet, there would be less drownings and less over capacity..the same applies to people doctors.

Right.....the huge number of "Animal Hospitals" that have popped up are chasing discretionary spending dollars. Some owners even pay for pet health care insurance. So the market responds.

No wonder it's so hard to find one-eyed, three legged dogs anymore! :lol:

bush_cheney2004 · July 29, 2009

...As Chretien said, if Kyoto isn't passed people will start to die in 30 years. Most people do die. It's inevitable.

It's true....people are dying today that have never died before! :lol:

M.Dancer · July 29, 2009

Right.....the huge number of "Animal Hospitals" that have popped up are chasing discretionary spending dollars. Some owners even pay for pet health care insurance. So the market responds.
No wonder it's so hard to find one-eyed, three legged dogs anymore!

You're not looking hard enough...anyway, I got a cat on insulin tablets...I say to the wife, could we give her to a farmer with a mouse problem...I'm sure the excerise and diet will help.