Israeli thought police

[kuzadd]

Thought-police is here

"The Foreign Ministry unveiled a new plan this week: Paying talkbackers to post pro-Israel responses on websites worldwide. A total of NIS 600,000 (roughly $150,000) will be earmarked to the establishment of an “Internet warfare” squad.

talbackers: does that mean people to talk back and pointlessly argue without any history or fact???

The Foreign Ministry intends to hire young people who speak at least one language and who study communication, political science, or law – or alternately, Israelis with military experience gained at units dealing with information analysis.

Beyond the fact that these job requirements reveal a basic lack of understanding in respect to the dynamics of the online discourse – the project’s manager argued that “adults don’t know how to blog” – they are not too relevant either. An effective talkbacker does not need a law degree or military experience. He merely needs to care about the subject he writes about.

the writer points out an obvious FACT

"The sad truth is that had Israeli citizens believed that their State is doing the right thing, they would have made sure to explain it out of their own accord. Without being paid."

[M.Dancer]

Thought-police is here

talbackers: does that mean people to talk back and pointlessly argue without any history or fact???

If this silly opinion piece and your comment is right, you have the skills to make millions

[Remiel]

talbackers: does that mean people to talk back and pointlessly argue without any history or fact???

Perhaps I am just being dense, but is that supposed to be sarcasm, or are you genuinely asking the question while outraged?

[kuzadd]

Perhaps I am just being dense, but is that supposed to be sarcasm, or are you genuinely asking the question while outraged?

capital locks are outrage.

so don't assume, and comment on the article, please.

editted to add: remiel, did you realize how nicely you fullfilled the question I asked about these alleged "talkbackers" ?

did you realize that?

Will the people work together with the 'megaphonies'??

These backtalkers are often out in full force whenever anything controversial comes out, but apparently it is not enough and more manipulation is needed???

Edited July 12, 2009 by kuzadd

[Remiel]

so don't assume, and comment on the article, please.

editted to add: remiel, did you realize how nicely you fullfilled the question I asked about these alleged "talkbackers" ?

did you realize that?

Actually, no, I had not thought about that, because my question was not pointless with no basis in history and fact.

It is funny that you should ask me to comment on the article, since " Talkback " is what the comment sections of Y Net News, Ha'aretz, and from that presumable many Israeli websites are called.

My question was merely a precursor to pointing that out, in case you had not noticed.

In any case, I read through the article and the " Talkback " and came to several conclusions: 1) Paying people to comment for you on websites is bad, even if it is the truth. 2) Paying people to do something you get get many to do for free with proper organization is bad. 3) Most of the Talkbackers on Y Net News, at least those responding to that article, would do it for free. 4) Most of the Talkbackers of Y Net News, at least those responding to that article, are idiots. 5) There were a couple of good responses from those criticizing the article authors position. The one about the Soviet "thought police" was nice, but I think that they failed to grasp that just because people are not getting killed means its a good idea. The other one that was good addressed that it need not be bad, if the Talkbackers in question identify themselves as government employees. 6) My guess is that they will probably not identify themselves as government employees. 7) Such employees, even if good intentioned, will probably do no better job of sticking to the facts than any other well meaning internet poster will. They are being fed information by a government after all, and who the hell in their right mind trusts a government of any kind of give them 100% fact?

[kuzadd]

remiel:

the concept of Israel hiring people to manage opinion on line is really strange.

They already have people doing that, willingly.

Apparently it is not enough and they need now to hire people to do this?

You raised alot of good points in why this is not in Israel's best interest.

"They are being fed information by a government after all, and who the hell in their right mind trusts a government of any kind of give them 100% fact?"

I like that one best of all.

This will backfire on Israel. Because unabashed supporters of Israel will now be dismissed as government propagandists.

As the megaphonies already are, they just do it for free.

These actions make Israel look more and more like they manage their image, rather then deal legitimately with issues, regarding the occupation and the war crimes they committed.

[DogOnPorch]

Who the heck is Rona Kuperboim and how much was she paid to write that article?

[Remiel]

Who the heck is Rona Kuperboim and how much was she paid by whom to write that article?

Fixed it for you.

[DogOnPorch]

Indeed...Google her name...all you get is this article. Maybe I should start writing random articles for paid submission.

[dub]

If this silly opinion piece and your comment is right, you have the skills to make millions

sounds like dancer is a little outraged that he and the other war crimes apologists have been doing this for free.

[dub]

zionists know that the internet is the new frontier. they may not have facts or the truth on their side, but they sure have the numbers and the time. here is a tool that's used by these racist nationalists:

The Megaphone desktop tool is a Windows "action alert" tool developed by Give Israel Your United Support (GIYUS) and distributed by World Union of Jewish Students, World Jewish Congress, The Jewish Agency for Israel, World Zionist Organization, StandWithUs, Hasbara fellowships, HonestReporting, and other pro-Israel public relations, media watchdog, or activism organizations. The tool delivers real-time alerts about key articles, videos, blogs, and surveys related to Israel or the Arab-Israeli conflict, especially those perceived by GIYUS to be highly critical of Israel, so that users can vote or add comments expressing their support of Israel. The tool was released in July during the 2006 Lebanon War. An RSS newsfeed is available so that non-Windows users may also receive the Megaphone "action alerts."

here is the software. you can find it here. if you want to learn more about it, i have a feeling that at least one of these troopers uses it; DoP, dancer, krusty, sharkman and argus.

[KrustyKidd]

here is the software. you can find it here. if you want to learn more about it, i have a feeling that at least one of these troopers uses it; DoP, dancer, krusty, sharkman and argus.

Hey Dub, just because I don't agree with you on how Israel is Satan incarnate does not mean I'm in their pocket or that I agree with their policies on settlement. Unlike you, I don't see things in black and black.

[kuzadd]

zionists know that the internet is the new frontier. they may not have facts or the truth on their side, but they sure have the numbers and the time. here is a tool that's used by these racist nationalists:

here is the software. you can find it here. if you want to learn more about it, i have a feeling that at least one of these troopers uses it; DoP, dancer, krusty, sharkman and argus.

not only is the internet the new frontier, it is not easy to control, like the so called wild west.

While it is so easy for, as an example, AIPAC to get their point of view out via the major press through any of the politicians they have in their pocket.....

Less control can be had of the millions on line discussing news articles, posting on blogs, expressing opinions freely. Hard to control that free flow of information. That democratic discussion.

You can see when the megaphonies are about, pick a news site where there is a news article about Israeli war crimes as an example. They are there. Absolutely flooding the comments section. A flood of new commenters, all pro-Israel - megaphone.

It has been so obvious, so blatant in one case there was a poll that had to be shut down on the BBC

Israel's newest PR weapon: The Internet Megaphone

He also noted that GIYUS supporters had claimed success in "balancing" an opinion poll on a pro-Arab Web Site by turning a vote condemning Israel's war in Lebanon into an endorsement.

balance? like stuffing ballot boxes, like flipping votes in electronic voting???

it all boils down to massive manipulation.

Just more propaganda tactics, to fool the people, to mislead.

except, now that people are onto this tactic, it is just dismissed.

as this latest tact will be.

Edited July 14, 2009 by kuzadd

[JB Globe]

This is the first case I've heard of where a government is paying people to target comment sections on news websites and blogs as part of a coordinated PR campaign. I have some problems with it: I don't think it's ethical to pose as John Q Public and make a political argument if in fact you are being paid to make those arguments. That's pretty blatant deception, but I guess they're rationalizing this as the ends justify the means? I think that's pretty bankrupt myself.

I'm not sure if it's going to work or not, I'm sure news of this is going to spread, and it may end up backfiring. People may just start assuming that hardline Israeli-nationalist arguments come from a professional commenter, and may start writing everyone off, including people who aren't getting paid, and dismissing those comments out of hand, rather than at least engaging with them.

Also, I think that if any political movement or government has to resort to paying people to say they agree with what they're doing, than it reflects that their policies simply do not appeal to the general population. It also says a lot about the leadership of a group that does this that would rather try and use manipulation rather than being bold and trying to re-shape their policy.

[JB Globe]

From the Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20...-ministry-media

Hasbara spam alert

With Israel's foreign ministry organising volunteers to flood news websites with pro-Israeli comments, Propaganda 2.0 is here

Apparently this effort even asks people to pose as a local resident of a town served by a local paper and send letters to the editor, posing as a town resident in support of Israel. Quite disingenuous. And this is now being done by the foreign affairs ministry? Pretty sad if they have to resort to this behavior.

Edited July 14, 2009 by JB Globe

[Bonam]

This thread is hilarious, for two immediate reasons:

1. The complete misapplication of the term "thought police". Granted it's what the article is called, but people posting information on various news/discussion sites is not "thought police". Thought police is when you think something that is not in accord with some all-powerful entity and the police come and punish you in some way. Please look up the term "thought police".

When I saw the thread title I was like, whoa, cool, did Israeli scientists invent telepathy? Couldn't be farther off unfortunately.

2. The apparent perception on the part of some people that this kind of activity is not already being undertaken by a variety of governments, lobby groups, corporations, and other organizations. This has been going on for years, ever since news/discussion sites became a significant form of media.

[Remiel]

2. The apparent perception on the part of some people that this kind of activity is not already being undertaken by a variety of governments, lobby groups, corporations, and other organizations. This has been going on for years, ever since news/discussion sites became a significant form of media.

" It has happened before, " is neither a necessary nor sufficient premise for, " It is right. "

[dub]

" It has happened before, " is neither a necessary nor sufficient premise for, " It is right. "

just like using other countries' level of war crimes is neither a necessary nor a sufficient premise for justification of israel's war crimes.

[Bonam]

" It has happened before, " is neither a necessary nor sufficient premise for, " It is right. "

You suggest that Israel should let its reputation be destroyed by Arab propaganda, let its people be defamed and dehumanized, let the history of the conflict be twisted and rewritten to favor Palestinian ends, without fighting back? Not gonna happen. A nation's right to defend itself extends not only to the use of physical force, but also to the war of words. The anti-Israeli lobby's assault on history, language, and thought has been relentless and Israel is doing what it can to fight back.

just like using other countries' level of war crimes is neither a necessary nor a sufficient premise for justification of israel's war crimes.

Like I've said before, in the face of foes that have no regard for what is a war crime and what is not, that have no respect for the lives of civilians, one must do whatever it takes to defend one's self. Protecting the safety of a nations citizens is of foremost importance, even if it means breaking some rules in the process. This is something you simply refuse to understand. If you ever were in a situation where rockets were falling on you daily, you would realize that it is your government's paramount duty to stop such occurrences, whatever the means that must be employed.

[dub]

Like I've said before, in the face of foes that have no regard for what is a war crime and what is not, that have no respect for the lives of civilians, one must do whatever it takes to defend one's self. Protecting the safety of a nations citizens is of foremost importance, even if it means breaking some rules in the process. This is something you simply refuse to understand. If you ever were in a situation where rockets were falling on you daily, you would realize that it is your government's paramount duty to stop such occurrences, whatever the means that must be employed.

it's good that you're finally admitting that israel has "broken some rules in the process".

you realize that many regimes, including the nazis, have used 'self defense' as justification to do some pretty shitty things. these rockets killed a total number of 3 israeli civilians during the conflict. you just cannot, in any way, justify israel's heavy handed attack. you can try, but no one is going to accept it. especially not with the mounting evidence of illegal tactics by israel by more than 1 human rights organization.

this is why we have the geneva convention and international law, which we are all signatories to. it is to distinguish between what is permitted and what is not. all western countries and israel have signed onto it and must abide by it.

if a group of people start throwing rocks at your house (for a second, lets pretend it's unprovoked), and you reply by throwing a bomb onto the building where the rock throwers might be and killing everyone in the building (including bystanders) and also people around it, you cannot justify your action.

all of these rights organizations' cornerstone is the geneva convention. they're experts at what they do and have not limited their criticism of human rights violations. they've criticized every country from iran to israel to the US to congo, to russia and china and many more. they have no reason to be biased about their reporting and are recognized for its reliability. their research and information have been used by governments, intergovernmental organizations, journalists, scholars and other human rights organizations.

[Bonam]

it's good that you're finally admitting that israel has "broken some rules in the process".

I said breaking the rules is of secondary importance compared to protecting the citizens of a nation. I made no statements about Israel.

you realize that many regimes, including the nazis, have used 'self defense' as justification to do some pretty shitty things.

Just because a certain justification was used by a certain group that was clearly deeply in the wrong, does not mean that such justification can never be used in a valid manner. Self defense is certainly a valid reason for a country to undertake military action.

these rockets killed a total number of 3 israeli civilians during the conflict.

And how many Israelis have been killed overall through the last few decades by rocket attacks? What has been the economic impact on Israel? Tourism and capital investment suffers to a severe extent in areas that are unstable and risk being targets of terrorist attacks. What has been the impact on Israel's population and prosperity, as Jewish immigrants seeking to flee persecution and danger in other parts of the world fled from Israel to the US or Canada or elsewhere after realizing that Israel is plagued with constant violence? The impact of Palestinian terrorism on Israel over the past decades has been profound and cannot be minimized.

you just cannot, in any way, justify israel's heavy handed attack. you can try, but no one is going to accept it. especially not with the mounting evidence of illegal tactics by israel by more than 1 human rights organization.

Israels' response was obviously not severe or prolonged enough, since they failed to obliterate Hamas' ability to launch rockets at Israel. Fortunately this will be irrelevant in the near future after the deployment of the anti-projectile and anti-rocket laser systems along the border is completed.

this is why we have the geneva convention and international law, which we are all signatories to. it is to distinguish between what is permitted and what is not. all western countries and israel have signed onto it and must abide by it.

As I have said before, the duty to protect the lives of a nation's citizens is to be held paramount, over and above the duty to abide by international agreements. Furthermore, the convention can be and has been interpreted differently when applied by different organizations to different nations.

if a group of people start throwing rocks at your house (for a second, lets pretend it's unprovoked), and you reply by throwing a bomb onto the building where the rock throwers might be and killing everyone in the building (including bystanders) and also people around it, you cannot justify your action.

No, but if they launch rockets rather than throwing rocks at my house, then I can justify my actions. And if anyone tells me I can't, it doesn't matter, because staying alive is more important than justifying actions.

all of these rights organizations' cornerstone is the geneva convention. they're experts at what they do and have not limited their criticism of human rights violations. they've criticized every country from iran to israel to the US to congo, to russia and china and many more. they have no reason to be biased about their reporting and are recognized for its reliability. their research and information have been used by governments, intergovernmental organizations, journalists, scholars and other human rights organizations.

Your blanket praise of human rights organizations across the board is unwarranted. Some organizations do indeed try to maintain impartiality, and others are biased or politically influenced in different ways and to different extents. The information that they issue in their reports is also acted upon differently by different governments and organizations.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Bonam

[M.Dancer]

these rockets killed a total number of 3 israeli civilians during the conflict. you just cannot, in any way, justify israel's heavy handed attack. you can try, but no one is going to accept it. especially not with the mounting evidence of illegal tactics by israel by more than 1 human rights organization.

What a lame apology....

One of the hall marks oif the quintiscetial aran argument is Israel should not have the right to retailiate. The of Israelis number of Israelis killed before and during the operation is irrelvant, it is the potential that counts. If the palestians were hurling feather pillows you might have the first point in your life..as it was they wewre firing rockets directly at civilian targets, and it was only their ineptitude and quality of the weapon (thank you blockade) which lessened the damage.

Lets put it another way. Say there's this arab fool firing a pistol at me and my family, he's emptying his clip, spraying and praying but the rounds are going of madly in all directions and not one lands near me or mine.

While he is reloading I shoot him 3 times in the head. To be sure I put another 3 in his chest. I had every right to kill him with extreme prejudice.

There are a lot less rocketeers now in Gaza, Israel had every right to invade and destroy the infrastructure which serves the rocketeers. That's the nature of war and the GC were not createwd to make war impossible, but to make it polite. Israel did not violate one GC regardless of what discredited propaganda organizations say.

[Remiel]

You suggest that Israel should let its reputation be destroyed by Arab propaganda, let its people be defamed and dehumanized, let the history of the conflict be twisted and rewritten to favor Palestinian ends, without fighting back? Not gonna happen. A nation's right to defend itself extends not only to the use of physical force, but also to the war of words. The anti-Israeli lobby's assault on history, language, and thought has been relentless and Israel is doing what it can to fight back.

First, I was merely trying to point out that your argument had a logical fallacy big enough to drive a Mack truck through.

You are right in saying that there is a danger here, though your use of hyperbole almost made me pass over it. What I think you are missing is that I am not saying Israelis should not fight back, but I am saying that fraudulent postings paid for by the government are not the way to go. There are plenty of rabidly patriotic Israelis that would be willing to do it for free, without the government needing to step in. Apparently, there is even a tool (that Megaphone business), or there could be, to help them do it. It would be a shame for Israel to let its reputation be destroyed by its own Israeli propaganda, rather than employ a cleaner method that achieves the same results without the loss of face.

Also, do not underestimate the element in Israel that will happily do the same to what is left of the Palestinian reputation as well. Propaganda is not a one way street, it is a four lane highway.

There is some other stuff in the last few posts that the contrarian in me would like to reply to, but it is not really the sort of argument I want to get into.

Edited July 15, 2009 by Remiel

[Bonam]

You are right in saying that there is a danger here, though your use of hyperbole almost made me pass over it. What I think you are missing is that I am not saying Israelis should not fight back, but I am saying that fraudulent postings paid for by the government are not the way to go.

Why do you assume that the postings to be paid for would be fraudulent?

[Remiel]

Why do you assume that the postings to be paid for would be fraudulent?

Cynicism? The usual MO of propaganda does not include only facts, nor does it include being truthful about the propagandizers agenda. In this instance, I was using "fraudulent" more with it in mind that these government posters are will likely not advertise themselves as such and probably outright deny it, not as to actual content.