Hate Crime in Courtenay, BC

[g_bambino]

A bigger neighbour.

[gc1765]

uh, can't the same argument be made regardless of the motive?

-k

If a guy kills his wife because she cheated on him, that's wrong, but realistically it's unlikely that he will re-offend.

If a guy kills someone because he doesn't like the colour of his skin, well there's plenty more people with the same skin colour, so it's pretty likely that he will re-offend.

That's one argument for having "hate crimes"

[Bonam]

If a guy kills his wife because she cheated on him, that's wrong, but realistically it's unlikely that he will re-offend.

If a guy kills someone because he doesn't like the colour of his skin, well there's plenty more people with the same skin colour, so it's pretty likely that he will re-offend.

That's one argument for having "hate crimes"

If a guy kills someone because he doesn't like the colour of his skin, well there's plenty more people with the same skin colour, so it's pretty likely that he will re-offend.

If a guy kills everyone that has a certain colour of their skin, well there's no more people with the same skin colour, so realistically it's unlikely that he will re-offend. Free to go I say!

Sorry but that's a silly argument ;p

[gc1765]

huh?

[kimmy]

If a guy kills his wife because she cheated on him, that's wrong, but realistically it's unlikely that he will re-offend.

If a guy kills someone because he doesn't like the colour of his skin, well there's plenty more people with the same skin colour, so it's pretty likely that he will re-offend.

That's one argument for having "hate crimes"

If a guy kills his wife because his wife cheated on him, his next wife or girlfriend or female acquaintance is probably in a lot of danger as well.

If I beat up somebody and take their lunch, I might be a danger next time I get hungry... do you think there should be a food crimes legislation?

Do you think that the three turds in this video are well behaved individuals until such time as they run into some non-white person?

Personally, I think you're giving them too much credit. Personally, I suspect they're the sort of creeps who'd be driving around looking for somebody else to beat up if there wasn't a black person handy.

-k

[gc1765]

Personally, I suspect they're the sort of creeps who'd be driving around looking for somebody else to beat up if there wasn't a black person handy.

All the more reason to make sure they are locked up for a long time, don't you think?

[kimmy]

All the more reason to make sure they are locked up for a long time, don't you think?

Perhaps... but that's not the same as being a good reason to have a special category for "hate crimes".

If a particular defendant is particularly likely to reoffend, be it against a black person or a gay person or a random person or a person with pie, it seems to me that a judge should be able to make that sort of determination during sentencing.

-k

[wulf42]

All the more reason to make sure they are locked up for a long time, don't you think?

You forget what country you live in?.....this is Canada, nobody gets locked up very long here no matter what they do, and you can thank the bleeding heart Liberals for that!.....

you would likely get more for jacking a deer than a murder...........when it comes to the Justice system in Canada

it is an absolute disgraceful joke which is why many terrorist groups and organized crime set up shop here.........they know they have nothing to fear from a toothless Justice system even if they are caught! these three will get a slap on the ass and sent on their way like all youth's who commit crime in Canada!

[ToadBrother]

Perhaps... but that's not the same as being a good reason to have a special category for "hate crimes".

If a particular defendant is particularly likely to reoffend, be it against a black person or a gay person or a random person or a person with pie, it seems to me that a judge should be able to make that sort of determination during sentencing.

-k

Which is where I feel the nature of the crime should be considered. The purpose of the trial is to determine guilt. To be sure, motive is an enormous part of that, but the particulars of the crime during trial should only be considered as to whether they point towards guilt or innocence.

I dislike the nature of hate crimes laws precisely because of they create an extra layer on top of the trial. If one beats a guy up because he's gay, let the judge make the determination during sentencing.

[gc1765]

If a particular defendant is particularly likely to reoffend, be it against a black person or a gay person or a random person or a person with pie, it seems to me that a judge should be able to make that sort of determination during sentencing.

So we should leave it up to a judge's discretion?

I think that's the reason why the Bloc is opposed to mandatory minimums, which is fine, but personally I don't see any harm in ensuring that a criminal gets a minimum sentence and I don't see any harm in ensuring that these three guys get a stiffer penalty for their particularly heinous crime.

[gc1765]

You forget what country you live in?.....this is Canada, nobody gets locked up very long here no matter what they do, and you can thank the bleeding heart Liberals for that!.....

you would likely get more for jacking a deer than a murder...........when it comes to the Justice system in Canada

it is an absolute disgraceful joke which is why many terrorist groups and organized crime set up shop here.........they know they have nothing to fear from a toothless Justice system even if they are caught! these three will get a slap on the ass and sent on their way like all youth's who commit crime in Canada!

So you're in favour of having hate crime legislation?

Or you'd rather these guys spend even less time in jail?

[wulf42]

So you're in favour of having hate crime legislation?

Or you'd rather these guys spend even less time in jail?

I am in favour of having tough laws brought in against ALL hate crime and crime in general including ALL races (black against white)..(white against black) whatever..........Canada's laws are weak and are a joke, personally i would like to see murderers and child killers get the firing squad.........but again its Canada where the victims suffer and the guilty go free, as sad as it is... these three cowards will get nothing the same as when a group of blacks attack some white guy........nothing ever comes of it, it goes to trial ....slap on the wrist..... send them on their way to do it again!

[gc1765]

I am in favour of having tough laws brought in against ALL hate crime and crime in general including ALL races (black against white)..(white against black) whatever..........Canada's laws are weak and are a joke, personally i would like to see murderers and child killers get the firing squad.........but again its Canada where the victims suffer and the guilty go free, as sad as it is... these three cowards will get nothing the same as when a group of blacks attack some white guy........nothing ever comes of it, it goes to trial ....slap on the wrist..... send them on their way to do it again!

I'm all for having stiff penalties for all crimes, but why not have even stiffer penalties for crimes like this one?

[wulf42]

I'm all for having stiff penalties for all crimes, but why not have even stiffer penalties for crimes like this one?

absolutely!! but the same should apply if a group of blacks attack a white person too.....don t you think?? it should be equal justice for both!

[gc1765]

absolutely!! but the same should apply if a group of blacks attack a white person too.....don t you think?? it should be equal justice for both!

absolutely.

[Griz]

I don't think it's a silly argument at all. It happens to aboriginal people alot. Look at Highway 16 and the Highway of Tears? Could it be young guys like these three? Where did they learn their values? I've heard horror stories of whites ganging up on indians all the time. Let me take that one step further, I've lived in small towns and have seen it happen. I've also heard stories that some guys go out specifically looking for someone to pounce on. I am so glad this was caught on tape. As much as I hate to say it, it's just the surface of what really happens in all these so-called "small-innocent-towns" like Courtenay. The sad thing is that there are some really nice people in these town. Those 3 goofballs painted an unfair picture for all the nice people in towns like that.

If a guy kills someone because he doesn't like the colour of his skin, well there's plenty more people with the same skin colour, so it's pretty likely that he will re-offend.

If a guy kills everyone that has a certain colour of their skin, well there's no more people with the same skin colour, so realistically it's unlikely that he will re-offend. Free to go I say!

Sorry but that's a silly argument ;p

[ToadBrother]

I don't think it's a silly argument at all. It happens to aboriginal people alot. Look at Highway 16 and the Highway of Tears? Could it be young guys like these three? Where did they learn their values? I've heard horror stories of whites ganging up on indians all the time. Let me take that one step further, I've lived in small towns and have seen it happen. I've also heard stories that some guys go out specifically looking for someone to pounce on. I am so glad this was caught on tape. As much as I hate to say it, it's just the surface of what really happens in all these so-called "small-innocent-towns" like Courtenay. The sad thing is that there are some really nice people in these town. Those 3 goofballs painted an unfair picture for all the nice people in towns like that.

Courtenay is a nice town, and I think they've done as good a job as could be done to show that these three hooligans are atypical. I would imagine that none of them will be returning to the town once they get out of a jail (I'm assuming they'll get some sort of sentence). Courtenay's a growing town, but not so big that these guys would realistically be able to find jobs or accomodations afterwards. My understanding is that the town is absolutely furious at this.

[kimmy]

So we should leave it up to a judge's discretion?

Don't we rely on a judge's discretion in every other situation when deciding sentences?

I am not a lawyer, and don't know the specifics. However, I believe their is no actual law under which this incident could be filed as a "hate crime." Rather, the legal system would look at this as an assault; Canada's law reminds judges to consider hate as a factor in determining the sentence (as it should be, in my opinion.)

What I would not want is a situation where hate crime is a crime in itself where charges could be laid arbitrarily. ie, a kid throws a rock through a window of one store and gets sentenced to a fine and community service... but if the shop next door is owned by Lebanese immigrants then it's a fine, community service, and a mandatory 2 year sentence for hate crimes. Yes, I think judge's discretion is a good thing... much better than leaving it at the discretion of a crown prosecutor, at least.

I think that's the reason why the Bloc is opposed to mandatory minimums, which is fine, but personally I don't see any harm in ensuring that a criminal gets a minimum sentence and I don't see any harm in ensuring that these three guys get a stiffer penalty for their particularly heinous crime.

Is this a particularly heinous crime? Would it have been a particularly heinous crime if the man on the receiving end of this aggression were a white man? Is the heinousness predicated on what actually occurred, or on the motivation behind it?

Young men (and young women, in fact) attempting to provoke a fist-fight with other young men (or young women) is exceedingly commonplace. Canada is full of young, hyperaggressive jerks who feel as if intimidating their peers would be a way to make them feel better about themselves. In tough times like these (particularly in a town where I believe the dismal forestry sector is the major employer) the hyperaggressive jerks are likely feeling worse about their miserable lives than ever.

-k

[kimmy]

I don't think it's a silly argument at all. It happens to aboriginal people alot. Look at Highway 16 and the Highway of Tears? Could it be young guys like these three?

I believe a number of the murdered and missing women are white; looking at racism as a motive seems like quite a stretch.

-k

[Sabre Rider]

I believe a number of the murdered and missing women are white; looking at racism as a motive seems like quite a stretch.

-k

And I believe you need to learn how to do a little research and fact checking before piping up.

Highway of Tears

An unsolved series of murders and disappearances of young women in the vicinity of Highway 16 has earned the route the nickname the "Highway of Tears". Since 1988, at least 32 women,[citation needed] 31 of them aboriginal, have been killed or suspiciously disappeared along the 800-kilometre (500-mile) section of highway between Prince George to Prince Rupert. These crimes have remained largely uninvestigated.

As the result of a symposium held in Prince George in March 2006, aboriginal Canadians along the route are advocating better rural bus service that would help reduce the number of young native women hitchhiking. In addition, spurred on by native leaders, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police is officially investigating the unsolved murder or disappearance of nine women between the ages of 14 and 25 since 1974, most of whom were hitchhiking along Highway 16.

[kimmy]

Since 1988, at least 32 women,[citation needed]

This article puts the number of cases under investigation at 18 since 1969, rather than 32 since 1988, so I am skeptical of your uncited Wiki source.

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Families+...4194/story.html

As well, I highly doubt the claim that all but one of the victims are native, since at least 3 of the women (Nicole Hoar, Deena Lyn Braem, and Shelly-Ann Bascu) aren't native.

-k

Edited July 11, 2009 by kimmy

[Griz]

Most of those missing or murdered are aboriginal. Many of these towns are very "redneck!" But as I pointed out, they're are nice people in these towns as well. And yes, I agree with a previous poster, that these jerks were young and aggressive. I notice Kimmy is posting from Alberta. I heard horror stories of towns and cities along the stretch between Edmonton and FT St John which is a city near the BC/ALberta border. You have to live in these towns and see it with your own eyes the treatment toward aboriginal people. What is more interesting, is I have had former, non-aboriginal people point this out as well. For example, when they point out a certain town they's use such terms as "bad," "very redneck,""rough" etc etc. As I said, that clip is just the tip of what people actually see and what actually goes on.

I believe a number of the murdered and missing women are white; looking at racism as a motive seems like quite a stretch.

-k

[tango]

Well that black guy just looks like such a perp...

Lictor616 just sounds like such a perp ...

[Griz]

Yeah the real problem is our society is full of idiot's like Lictor and those three losers in Courtenay

Lictor616 just sounds like such a perp ...

[lictor616]

Yeah the real problem is our society is full of idiot's like Lictor and those three losers in Courtenay

No the problem is self righteous fugitives of reality like yourself and tango, who are supremely sensitive and create problems where there are none. People who think in double standards, and to whom any concepts of justice and TRUE equity are utterly alien.

People like you griz, who work themselves into a fine lather because some street thug ambushed 3 white guys with a camera so he could cry racism after taunting them ad provoking them to fight... but who are ABSOLUTELY SILENT when they are shown a video documenting a 14 year old white girl being assaulted by 14... that's FOURTEEN black males, kicking, stomping, spitting on her... hurling racial epithets... as THEY THEMSELVES videotaped her ordeal.

viz:

To you the 14 on 1 black on white assault is "not" a hate crime.

But the 3 on 1 hit job ... well that is ...

And that's just lunacy of course. And it shows for all who are really concerned about such things as justice, just what kind of racial hatreds fester under your skull griz.

Edited July 12, 2009 by lictor616